Two types of unity?
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Category: Religion - Islam
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Topic: Two types of unity?
Posted By: believer
Subject: Two types of unity?
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 11:12am
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Muslims say Allah's unity is one single being. How can unity be one being? One is a just that a single static being. Unity implies more then one, one in union with something else? Christians know that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit work only in complete Unity!! Jesus does not do what God does not will. A perfect example of what unity is. Tha Father, Son and Holy Spirit in a dynamic union as One True GOD.
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Replies:
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 1:48pm
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That would also mean that your god (church god) is composed of some smaller units. Is that so?? Those units are working well in Unison and as such they are in Unity?? Your god is in parts and parcels working in unity?? What could be the meaning of things that you have just proposed?? ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 29 March 2008 at 12:09am
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I wonder why Christians say there are three Gods, when the Bible says Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)" It is funny that Jesus Christ never said trinity or talked about trinity. Instead when asked which was the most important commandment, he said "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)" Notice also how Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty. The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good�except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)" If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty? |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 6:54am
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LOL! ali- I have been proclaiming over and over that Christians believe in One True GOD. Not 3 gods. LOL! All know that Jesus is good. Jesus is asking the man WHY? he thinks Jesus is good. Jesus is eguating Himself with GOD. Jesus does not work on His own but through the Father, because all are one. No, the word Trinity is not a word used in the Bible. The concept of the Father, Holy Spirit and Son working together as One True GOD is. Yes we sing praises to all the "units" of GOD but, Chrisitans do not worship the "units" [manifestations] separatly, but as the One True UNITY that is YHWH. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 9:37pm
1 a: the quality or state of not being multiple : oneness b (1): a definite amount taken as one or for which 1 is made to stand in calculation
copy and paste from- http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unity - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unity |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 10:37pm
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Believer said: Muslims say Allah's unity is one single being. How can unity be one being? One is a just that a single static being. I don't understand this. What Muslims are you referring to? Perhaps you are misunderstanding the principle of God's attributes with respect to God. If this is so we therefore can conclude that God's attributes are not apart from God, but are God. Also, each attribute corresponds, in unisoon, with other attributes but this is more along the lines of metaphysics and even y explanation may not be any more clear than yours but you (believer) need to define your statements more clearly. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 31 March 2008 at 11:16am
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That is truly what it sounds like to my ears, Allah is one period, confined. To me the attirbutes are simply emotions of Allah- loving, kind, etc. Are you saying there is more to the attributes then just emotions, personality? Is it similar to when a person has split personalities? I believe that GOD is ONE and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can not be apart from the will of GOD, they work in unity. If GOD does not will it, there is no action. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 31 March 2008 at 12:20pm
Hi beliver, you presented a classic example of wrongly speaking on someone else's behalf. Associating us, the Muslim with something we are unaware of and then using it just to prove your point. I know its a practice of many who don't really believe even in what they claim as their practice shows otherwise. But I assume with your name " believer" ??? you really didn't mean it? Stand up to your name, no we Muslim don't use term " Allah's unity", you are mistaken. Its " Allah's Oneness" rather that we believe and preach, no buts no ifs, pure and simple. Have you forgotten previous posts where you admitted that God (father) is Greater than Jesus, when I quoted this verse from the Bible: John 14:28 (Jesus puh) is quoted saying,"..for the Father is Greater than I" Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
believer wrote:Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 31 March 2008 at 5:47pm
In my humble opinion there is no such thing as God having emotions. I believe ethics in the universe have a corresponding cause and effect (meaning what good I do is reciprocated back to me somehow in the universe). But of course this is not Islamic thinking. However I disagree with your trinitarian concept because Arius proved that you cannot prove trinitarian unison without distinguishing Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In the "spirit" of politics I find the Trinity to be no more useful in philosophy of religion than the patriot act. Are you saying there is more to the attributes then just emotions, personality? Is it similar to when a person has split personalities? God's attributes transcends all things physical and comprehensible. God's attributes are beyond what I can fathom. Even by me calling God's attributes, attributes I may be mnaking a human fallacy based upon the limitations of my mind. What I'm saying is that what is provided in Islamic philosophy/theology are the interpretations of Islamic metaphysics.
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 7:39am
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honeto- no I have not forgotten. That supports my belief. all parts are egual to each other, but all parts united as GOD. The whole is always greater then just a portion of the whole. israfil- It sound as if you are able to understand the 3 manifestations of GOD. If Mohamad had said that Allah was the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then you would have been able to believe it. Attributes are not emotions, but different personalities? "God's attributes transcends all things physical and comprehensible" Are we closer in thought then we realize? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 3:22pm
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Hi believer, you wrote: "honeto- no I have not forgotten. That supports my belief. all parts are egual to each other" How can it support your belief, and you all saying again that " all parts are equal to each other" while yuor bible shows it otherwise and I have quoted this before and you admitted that God is greater than Jesus. Let me quote it here again. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=28&version=50&context=verse - John 14:28 I cannot understand how that can still support your idea that all parts are equal? certainly not according to this quote. Well, we all are free to choose I guess. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 6:31pm
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Yes, but you still do not understand. Equal components of one, but the Son was sent by the Father, and the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and Son [some say just the Father]. Each manifestation has had a different role to play out in their interaction with man. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit do not work on their own but in unity.
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 3:31pm
Believer its you not me who is not understanding. You admit that to whom Jesus refered as the Father is greater than him, yet you keep contradicting yousrself that they are "Equal components of one"?? Can you see what you are saying, if you are admiting that "Father/God" is greater than Jesus, then on what ground do you claim to say that they are equal component??? Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 4:36pm
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Hope these examples help. equal components- husband and wife in a marriage, both are people, both hpoefully have equal duties in the family, yet there has to be a head of the household. There could be chaos if no one can have the deciding vote. Have you ever been on a committee- number of separate members with equal votes, yet there is always a chair to conduct the meeting, keeping things flowing without it stalling on an issue. The chair has the final say. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 4:53pm
So you are saying that God could not act without Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 5:37pm
Negative. This is a poor analogy to support your defense of unity. a husband and wife are NOT equal because of pre-conditioned roles. One may have more duties than the other or may be more supportive economically than the other, these elements are not called equality. Support for one another may be called unity because things are done in unison and are not unbalanced in this respect. But this is a stark difference than calling these two things equal. the reason the Trinity fails in this analogy is because, as Arius pointed out so many years back one is subserviant to the other. The Trinitarian concept is nothing more than a hylomorphic compound of an Aristotilian idea. For example: The Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit Yet Is NOT the Son and Holy Spirit. The reason the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit or Son is that there is a quality that distinguishes it from Son and Holy Spirit otherwise the Father wouldn't be called 'Father' but would be called something else or perhaps Holy Spirit or Son. The reason why we name thing sis to create distinctions or categories of things. The Trinity cannot be equal if there is a compound that distinguishes one from the other even if the Trinitarian concept is thought to act out in unision. Even if such is true things that act in Unison are not ONE. For instance sychronize swimming is done in unison to create a beautific and yet difficult pattern of swimming yet, there are particulars in this pattern. Each swimmer must correspond with the other but they are all different individually (when looked at) the only thing that makes them ONE so to speak is their ability to act in unison with each other, but this takes practice. However this is ahrdly a defense or discredit of Trinitarian concept. I'm merely stating how action if done in unison does not equal it to it being one being. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 7:43pm
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LOL!! Oh yes I forgot I was talking to a muslims, men and women are not equal! LOL!! As far as I know no Christian believes that the Father is the Son, is the Holy Spirit. We believe that the the Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are GOD. NOTHING is equal to GOD! ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 8:01pm
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Shasta's Aunt - How could there be parts missing of an omnipresent GOD?
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:17pm
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Hi believer, you wrote, "We believe that the the Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are GOD. NOTHING is equal to GOD!" believer now you are a bit carefull with your words which is good. And I am glad to hear from you that nothing is equal to God, you are on the right path. Now as far as your insistance that Jesus (pbuh) is part of God in trinity, you are mistaken. I remember you said once that the three parts of trinity are equal in power, and I showed you the quote where Jesus declared that Father is greater than him. Thus we know that they are not equal. Than I showed you with the Bible quote that Jesus has a God, to whom he said he is returning, when he said "I am returning to my God and your God" Is there any thing clearer than that to tell you that to whom you are associating in godhead, is actually saying that he has a God, while you are making him a part of God. So here we go again, I cannot understand how you deny that. Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 7:16pm
Believer you are sounding quite silly and besides, you have a poor defense. I'd be ashamed (if I were you) with all that you have presented here. Men and women are equal in the eyes of God because both are mammals and creatures belonging to this planet. there is no differentiation between males and females except that which is created biologically. Now what I meant as far as unequal I'm referring to pre-conditioned roles. Because society is largely patriarchal, men make more have more opportunities therefore the roles in marriage will be unequal because of the opportunities a male has. Whereas in some sectors of society women hae less opportunities, therefore roles in marriage is only limited. Of course this is a classical view and the roles of families are indeed changing. "As far as I know no Christian believes that the Father is the Son, is the Holy Spirit." You need to take a Christian theology class you have dismantled thousands of years of Christian theology with that one comment. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 1:24am
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"Beliver: How could there be parts missing of an omnipresent GOD?" 2- Whatever you give as reasons, one could easily prove the possibility of missing parts by using the very same reasons of yours. 3- I wish you don�t deceive yourself anymore. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 1:06pm
Believer: You have stated that Father+Jesus+Holy Spirit= God That all are equal. Is this not what you have stated? Yet, in the Bible, Jesus states that God is more powerful than he is, and that he is returning to God. In fact, on the eve of his crucifixion, Jesus prayed: Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matthew 26:42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." Now, all things being equal, how could the Father will Jesus to do something which he clearly did not want to do? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 12:37pm
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NO, equal components in that All are GOD, each different in how They react with us. Everything done in unity. Jesus does not act without the Father, who sent Him.
past, present, and future -- all three of them are equal components that make up time Which is more powerful? Actually dpends on the person- Are you stuck in the past, look to the future, think only of the present.
A very good site :
http://thriceholy.net/truegodf.html - http://thriceholy.net/truegodf.html
Jesus a manifestation of GOD, 100% human and 100% GOD, sent to earth for a mission. He knew what was coming up, His physical death on the cross. We are seeing the 100% human part of Him dreading His separation from GOD
Matthew 26
36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." 40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." 42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." 43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. 45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!" ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 12:00pm
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Hi believer,
do you not have the answer? how could you, so you are making it now long and winding, and refering a website. Why do you decieve yourself, and others from the truth when it has manifested itself to you?
Only God is the most powerful as the quotes support and the Quran confirms!!
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 12:57pm
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The website
http://thriceholy.net/truegodf.html - http://thriceholy.net/truegodf.html
is a great site. When you are ready it will open up the truth of what Christians believe.
YES, GOD's manifestations, Father, Son and Holy Spirit have been revealed to many.
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 12:57am
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Believer: Past, present, and future -- all
three of them are equal components that make up time If you would like to present an example, then the example should justifiably show what to want to say. The concept of time has been the matter of long discussion and will be. In fact you can not even apply this definition to time. I can say the time (you are talking about) is a quantity which is scaled and measured from movement. So the movement makes up time and the time makes up past, present and future. On the other hand, past- present and future are apparently not equal components. Believer: �Which is more powerful? Actually dpends on the person- Are you stuck in the past, look to the future, think only of the present.� Another contradiction!! Your ideology commits numerous contradictions. From one side you say past, present and future are equal components and from the other side you say their power depend on what people think of them. The more you stick to this doctrine the more you have to commit contradictions. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:49pm
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LOL!! There are no contradictions.. You guys are a hoot. LOL! There are all kinds of examples in our world. I bet if you actually thought about it you could come up with an example too. I think the problem may be that if a Muslim says, ok I understand what you are saying, but I don't believe that GOD manifests in that way is that Islam will fails. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:00pm
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believer, to you be yours and to us is our belief. For us God does not come in the shape of a man, elephant or a monkey. Those are his creations not his manfestations.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 12:33am
| Beleiver, I am not sure if I understand what you mean by �manifestation�. If manifestation means what I know in Arabic �Aayah�, then everything in worlds is a manifestation of Allah (swt) which may show some of His attributes and abilities according to His will. However, manifestation doesn�t mean that an existence can take part in Allah (swt) so that without that particular existence He misses a thing or changes or becomes divided and so on. |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:28am
Perhaps that head is the woman, if you are not a muslim  since you made fun of Israfi's statement ... interesting comments!!------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:42am
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Auzubillahi Minash Shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
Why should one confine their Illah into an equation?
He is the creator and we the created. Everything other than Him is created, then how is it possible that He and something from His creation can become one, in unity - nauzubillah!!
Then, jesus (alihe salam) went to hell for the attonment of the sins of mankind -- do you beleive in this too? if so, then according to your equation, a portion of God was cast in hellfire - is that true?
Jesus (alaihe salam) also died on the cross - was resurrected. What god would *die* and will be * resurrected **
Perhaps I am mixing some sectarian beliefs withing christianity - you know better than I do.
PS: Israfil, in a long time, saw some very good posts from you. Jazak Allahu Khair.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:43pm
Nausheen- You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. I am saying though that GOD is all powerful and capable of doing such. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One True GOD.
1 Peter 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:00pm
So, man was so unjust that God could no longer forgive man of his own accord and a blood sacrifice had to be made to achieve atonement?
What about those who died before the advent of Jesus?
Then, to make sure everyone got the message of this salvation, Jesus did not ever clearly state that he was God and that this was his sole purpose on earth. So that only a mere handful of men even knew what was going on. And these men, who were the only ones on the face of the earth who knew that Jesus was God, actually fell asleep on his last night on earth when he asked them not to, then fled and denied any knowledge of him when he was taken by the Romans. So they denied God, but were still chosen to go out and spread the word of God. Only the women, his mother Mary and Mary Magdelene, who has been branded a prostitute by Christians, stayed. Yet Paul/Saul then stated that women were not allowed to head a church or even speak in church for that matter. So the women were well rewarded for their bravery.
Then Jesus, who was supposed to die for our sins, but never really could die because he was God, was resurrected, so he didn't REALLY die, and then went back to heaven to sit on the right hand side of God, himself. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:21pm
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Don't you as a Muslim believe in a final Judgement Day? Where are people before that final Judgement Day?
His body died like all Human bodies die, but it was ressurected. Jesus Spirit lived on- God is Spirit. God was not in any type of body until His manifestation as Jesus.
Romans 212For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Yes at first the Disciples fled, but then many were martyerd for saying that Jesus was GOD.
Mary Magdelene was never mentioned as a prostitute in the New Testament. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 6:11pm
Hi believer,
of course we the Muslims believe in the Jedgement Day, and each one will be Judged according to the critarian or God's law they lived in. For example we live in times where the Quran is the law according to which we will be Judged.
We have a body and a soul. The soul is taken by the angels at death. God will raise us again on that day, our body will be back with our soul . And according to my undersatanding in Islam our eyes, hands, ears and so on will speak the truth about ourself if we try to deny what we did, uttered or intended.
Those of us who believe in such a truth don't play with words or minds.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 2:41am
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"Yes at first the Disciples fled, but then many were martyerd for saying that Jesus was GOD.
Mary Magdelene was never mentioned as a prostitute in the New Testament." If the disciples believed Jesus was God, why did they flee? They had nothing to fear, they were in the presence of God Almighty.
The Trinity and Jesus as God incarnate are not in the New Testament either, yet you seem to believe them to be true. "Mary Magdalene is often referred to as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitute - prostitute , but she was never called one in the New Testament. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Kripal - Jeffrey Kripal , a religion scholar, wrote, " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migdal_%28town%29 - Migdal was a fishing town known, or so the legend goes, for its perhaps http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pun - punning connection to hairdressers (medgaddlela) and women of questionable reputation. This is as close as we get to any clear evidence that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene#cite_note-6 - [7] . According to Kripal, the identification of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute also goes back to the above mentioned sermon by Pope Gregory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene#cite_note-7 - [8] . In this sermon, Gregory identified Mary as peccatrix, a sinful woman, using her as a model for the repentant sinner, but he did not call her meretrix, a prostitute. However, he also identifies Mary with the adulteress brought before Jesus (as recounted in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericope_Adulterae - Pericope Adulterae , http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20John&verse=8&src=KJV - John 8 ), supporting the view of 3rd and 4th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_fathers - Church fathers that had already considered this sin as "being http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unchaste - unchaste ". Gregory's identification and the consideration of the woman's sin as sexual later gave rise to the image of Mary as a prostitute.
This image of Mary as a prostitute was followed by many writers and artists until the 20th century. Even though it is less prevalent nowadays, the identification of Mary Magdalene with the adulteress is still accepted by some Christians. This is reflected in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Scorsese - Martin Scorsese 's film adaptation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Kazantzakis - Nikos Kazantzakis 's novel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ - The Last Temptation of Christ , as well as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Saramago - Jos� Saramago 's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_According_to_Jesus_Christ - The Gospel According to Jesus Christ , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lloyd_Webber - Andrew Lloyd Webber 's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_opera - rock opera http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_Superstar - Jesus Christ Superstar , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson - Mel Gibson 's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ - The Passion of the Christ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Hartley - Hal Hartley 's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Life_%28film%29 - The Book of Life . One possible explanation for the labeling of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute is that there has been confusion between her and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_of_Egypt - Mary of Egypt . Another possible explanation is that it has been deliberately used to camouflage the close relationship between Jesus and Mary." Wikipedia ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 3:45pm
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I don't believe that Popes are infallible.
doubt After His resurrection they held firm through torture to death.
The word Trinity is indeed not in the Bible, but the concept is there. Sometimes I think it was a mistake to label it- man always fall short.
Jesus as GOD is in the Bible. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 4:17pm
Where does Jesus call himself God in the Bible? Where is jesus called God in the Old Testament, before Saul/Paul?
The Pope is not the only one to label Mary Magdalene as a harlot. It is / was common practice.
The only disciple of Jesus whose death is recounted in the Bible is James, who was put to the sword by Herod. The rest?????? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 5:33pm
Acts 2220And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him. Matthew 146On Herod's birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for them and pleased Herod so much 7that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." 9The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10and had John beheaded in the prison. 11His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12John's disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.
Acts 121It was about this time that King Herod arrested some who belonged to the church, intending to persecute them. 2He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword.Nasty business name calling- Do not bear false witness 1 of the commandments.
Actually Jesus is salvation in the Old Testament. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 7:00pm
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Joseph was killed before Jesus died and was not one of the disciples who denied Jesus when confronted in the garden.
Simon, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Nathaniel (also called Bartholomew), Matthew, Thomas, James, son of Alpheus, Simon the Zealot, Judas, son of James, and Judas Iscariot.
Not a Stephen among them. Stephen came after the death of Jesus.
We were speaking of the men who denied Jesus when he was arrested. Not every Christian who was ever martyred.
Be careful about that false witness thing..... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 10:38pm
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Believer,
Could you please quote your source in the bible that makes the statement about the concept of the trinity in the bible. And are you aware that this concept was interjected into some of the writings of the bible in the meeting of the council of nicea headed by Constantine the pagan in the 3rd century Common Era?
All you know is what you hear. Can you back it up with some credible sources, not one that is biased in modern christian doctrine.?
------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 10:47pm
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Even though I remain a muslim alhamdullillah, I find the following site to be of interest:
http://www.thunderministries.com/history/triad/triintro.html - http://www.thunderministries.com/history/triad/triintro.html
I have found a CHristian source downplaying the concept of the Trinity: My graduation major was history and I know they are closer to the truth than any:
The Early Church of the Bible knew nothing of a Trinity Doctrine. The very term "Trinity" or the teaching of it as a Christian doctrine did not start until 180 A.D. This is almost 150 years after the Church, under the new covenant, started in A.D. 33 on the day of Pentecost. One can search the Acts of the Apostles in the Bible which is the true History of the early Church thoroughly and not find any of the Apostles teaching the Trinity. We find some very enlightening historical statements in the Catholic Encyclopedia under "Trinity". "In Scripture there is no single term by which the Divine Persons of a Trinity are denoted together. The word TPIAS (of which the Latin word TRINITAS) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180." Note the following: "The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the (CATHOLIC) Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the Second Century and received final approbation in the Fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedoian controversies." The Encyclopedia Americana (1956), Vol. XXVII, Page 294L states that "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was (and still is) strictly Unitarian. (oneness). The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately, early (Original Bible) Christian teaching regarding the nature of God. Rather, it was a deviation from this teaching." The early original Apostolic Church of the Bible believed in only one God. The Trinity Doctrine was a latter man-made theory. It came into existence because the Latin and Greek Philosophers and Politicians rejected the Hebrew Scriptures and strict Monotheistic Doctrine of the Bible. Many Latin and Greek peoples were still influenced greatly by their old Pagan Theology of polytheism." See the rest of this at
http://www.thunderministries.com/history/triad/onlyone.html ------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 1:52am
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Thanks Mariyah for your informative post. The catholic church (and the protestants too) are sticking to One god theory along with three gods. They believe that there is a father god and a son god and the holy spirit god. But they still believe that He is One God. Perhaps they believe in a God with three parts. Actually, they went astray with their Trinity. Now it is difficult for them to drop that line of three gods. But there is a pressure from the Jews (Torah) and the Muslims (Quran). Also, because the verses of the bible NT is speaking about the One God. So they do not know where to go. The Quran and the Torah teaches monotheism. i.e. Unitarian faith. The church cannot support that faith. It has to support Trinitarian faith even if they cannot prove it. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 1:25pm
Evidently you are showing your lack of experience or lack of education. Women and men are indeed equal in Islam before God as the Haj will show. In fact, women are protected. It is culture and ignorance that causes the deviations. And your LOL is rather insulting. I suggest you read up and stop mocking us to participate in serious dialogue ------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 9:31am
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The false witness statement is directed towards all those naming Mary a prostitute when that is never said.
Stephen was actually killed before Paul even converted-
Acts 754When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 8 1And Saul was there, giving approval to his death. The Church Persecuted and ScatteredOn that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 9:58am
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minuteman- LOL!! WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT GOD IS 3 gods. IT IS ONE GOD with 3 manifestations.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=54236&FID=10 - mariyah - the concept was not labeled until later. I believe that in naming the concept it has actually made it harder for people to put their minds around. You said all I know is what I hear yes, but not from man. I know because the HOLY Spirit has revealed things to me.
Matthew 28:19
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 3
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
the voice from heaven- GOD, dove-Holy Spirit, Jesus- 3 manifestations.
Acts 8:16
16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. GOD's plan to reveal Himself to us in separate ways at separate times ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 10:30am
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Equal in what they inherit?
Can men and women have equal number of spouses?
Can Muslim women marry non- Muslim men?
Can wives punish disobedient men? Do both men and women have to be escorted outside the home? Is this hadith or Quran? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 2:10pm
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Hi beleiver,
you wrote: "WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT GOD IS 3 gods. IT IS ONE GOD with 3 manifestations. "
Well you are the one who first said, Jesus was/is God. Who came to the world. Was not he a walking talking eating and sleeping God according to your belief? Did he not pray to someone else whom he called God some times and father at others? Did he not cried for help to someone other than him God, (to another)God.
May be that still works for you, for I, it is pure silly, but I respect your believe as well as others like you who beleive that God manifested himself on this earth in form of other creatures than just a white man. People will be people, each one can believe as they wish. But I believe each one will be held responsible for how they got to that conclusion of theirs.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 4:53am
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Remember He was confined in the human body, but not all of Him.
Do you believe in omnipresence? Can GOD be in your heart?
When did GOD manifest Himself in other creatures? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 9:49am
Believer, you can believe what you like. Some of you say that jesus was half man and half god. Now here you are saying " Can GOD be in your heart?" Well if it can be in your heart even then it does not make you a God. Do you understand?? ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 1:16pm
Hi beleiver,
knowledge is good. If you can believe that God manifest himself in the form of a white man, why do my Christian friends take Hindu's belief as a joke when they say that god manifested himself in the form of a monkey or an elephant, or a blue man.
If you consider thier belief untrue then just look at yourself. Becaue you are doing the same thing, but you percieve it not. If "Raj" is wrong in believing in god coming on earth as a blue man, a monkey or an elephant according to "John doe" , then why is he himself right to believe that god came on earth only as a white man.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 7:01pm
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You bring up a good point.
Did these manifestations speak against the caste system?
Did they preach to follow the commandments?
Did they preach what is in Luke 10-
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25383c - c ]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 April 2008 at 6:02pm
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Hi beleiver, I have not much researched into Hindu teachings except some basics. You have to ask a Hindu those questions.
You quoted Jesus preaching Love of God, as "written in the Law". That is a great command, but note here that it is refering to the Law. That brings the claim that "Love" was a new command to a>>>>>>>
It reads:Luke 10:27He answered: "25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25383c - c ]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
What puzzles me however is the following quote, can these be said by the same person (if not god, which is the general claim) not too far apart in time I guess?? Let's read:
Matthew 10:34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: kmohareb
Date Posted: 25 April 2008 at 8:17pm
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Dear all,
May Allah reward you for your responses to the Believer's statement. My response will start with some questions to our dear Believer : 1-What do you call your God? 2-What is his name? 3-Is it Jesus, Holy Spirit or Father? 4-Where is the logic in Trinity? 5-Is Trinity mentioned in the Bible? 6-Where in the Bible that Jesus (PBUH) claimed to be God or part of him? 7-Is the Bible your source of religion? With all those question in mind, I think that the Believer is trying to convince himself with something illogical. Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, and Jesus (PBUH) never mentioned it, so who made it up, and how can any body dictate such a thing without a proof or authority. You said : �Jesus a manifestation of GOD, 100% human and 100% GOD, sent to earth for a mission. He knew what was coming up, His physical death on the cross. We are seeing the 100% human part of Him dreading His separation from GOD" Going back to trinity and using simple Mathematics : 1+1+1=1 (Where is the common sense in this?) or 1+1+1= Unity ( I would say Union of three and not one or unity) If it is a union of three Gods, then who has the chair, and where is this union before the birth of Jesus (PBUH), or did God split into three manifestations after the birth of Jesus (BPUH) then the equation should be: 0.3333333+0.3333333+0.3333334=1 ( in this case one manifestation must be bigger than the other two to reach true one). This is completely illogical!! and when you said that Jesus was sent to earth, then someone has sent him, who? The Father but Jesus and the Father are one, so in that case did Jesus send himself down? We all know that the sender must have more power or authority than the messenger he sends, Jesus (PBUH) is the messenger and he was send by the One almighty God. So open your heart and mind, In Islam Allah our almighty God (SWT) has given us all the logical answers in the Koran and the teaching of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). In your statement you said " Muslims say Allah's unity is one single being. How can unity be one being? One is a just that a single static being. Unity implies more then one, one in union with something else?� We don't have unity in Islam, we have the oneness of God (Tawheed) which means not to associate any other with Allah (SWT) and that he is ONE and only no manifestations no partners no son and no holy spirit. "[1> Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; [2> Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; [3> He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; [4> And there is none like unto Him." Al-Ikhlas, 112, 2 Even though Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, yet it is mentioned in the Koran with a warning: "O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." An-Nisaa, 4, 171 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Al-Maidah, 5 , 73 Furthermore Jesus (PBUH) never claimed to be GOD as stated in this verse: "And behold! Allah will say: "O 'Isa the son of Maryam! didst thou say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." Al-Maidah, 5, 116 Now to answer all these questions which are not related to the subject and shows that you have lost your reasons to continue, anyways to answer your none related questions, bare in mind that men and women are biologically differ. Are women men equal witnesses? No because they are biologically different and women can easily forget, and that is a stated fact by Koran and you can look it up in Science. �And get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.� Al-Baqara � 2-282 Equal in what they inherit? No, because the man is responsible of supporting the family and he can not touch his wife money, so what ever she earns or inherits is for her only, but the man is for him and his family. Can men and women have equal number of spouses? No, because incase of a man has more than one wife the father and the mother of the born child are easily determined, but incase of woman who has more than one spouse, you can not determine the father. Can Muslim women marry non- Muslim men? No, to protect the religion of the child, because the child carries his father name and religion when born. Can wives punish disobedient men? The woman is usually weak and will not be able by nature to punish her husband but she can divorce him. Do both men and women have to be escorted outside the home? No Just the woman when she travels long distances, she has to have close relative with her to protect her incase of emergency. Allah almighty knows better, all these words are mine and I seek forgiveness from Allah almighty for any shortfall which is because of my ignorance. Allah is all knowing. Wassalam ------------- 41:34 Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate! |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 3:22pm
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honeto - I know that verse has confused you we have talked about it before. His followers think all is going to be just great since Jesus is there. Jesus knows differently. His coming to earth is going to cause all kinds of differances between people.
In order to follow Jesus many people will have to -'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."
It plays out all the time when a Muslim becomes a Christian.
How do you decrease the font on messages?
1 x 1 x 1 x 1 =1
HYH
The Holy Bible is the WORD of the One True GOD.
If you were to read the Bible all the way though with an open heart you would know the truth.
Jesus does only what the Father wills.
You mention His Word from the Quran verse - What does that mean to you?
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 6:20pm
beleiver,
I think you are confused, at least you seem that way my friend. You need to go back to my last posting and read it again, because I don't like to in circles. You wrote something with a quote to bring out your point, I answered it with quotes that negativated yours. And both your and my quotes came from the same book and are associated with the same person. That is the issue deer, just read it again.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 6:31pm
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Dear "Kmohareb",
thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply for beleiver. May God reward you for your efforts.
beleiver has got and knows the asnwers to all those questions yet he likes to go things over and over.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 7:13am
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honeto- the problem is you are not understanding what Jesus meant. Do you understand that Jesus' prediction cames true all the time-every time a Muslim becomes a Christian.
Aren't Muslims parents terribly upset when their son or daughter becomes a Christian? The Christians enemy then becomes the people from hi home. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: kmohareb
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 12:56pm
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Jazak Allah Khair Honeto, and may Allah bless you for your effort.
Dear Believer, I want you to know, when we discuss these issues with you or with any other christian, our heart is clean and our intentions are sincere. We don't debate hoping to win, but more for you to see the truth. I don't know why you have to tell us how Jesus (PBUH) is great and he has to be respected and honored, for your information a Moslem is not a Moslem if he does not love and honor Jesus (PBUH) or any other prophet for that sake. We love Jesus so much that we believe that he will be our leader at the end of time to fight the Anti-Christ. We believe that he did not die over the cross to save mankind from the original sin (Where is the logic in this?) We believe that any new born child is pure and has no sin, and nobody will be accounted for anybody else's sins. We believe that Jesus (PBUH) was lifted to heavens and still there waiting for his descendance . "2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." 5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if his will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things." "23:50 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs." Therefore I urge to open your heart and see the truth, no body is saving anybody in the hereafter except their good deeds, even Jesus (PBUH) will not be able to do ay thing for you when your asked who is your GOD, what will you say? Father or Jesus or the Holy spirit? Why does God have to have somebody killed for saving billions of people. He can easily forgive them. "2:141 That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case:" Wassalam ------------- 41:34 Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate! |
Posted By: deepblue
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 12:39am
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Assalam alaikum and hello believer...
May I ask you, believer, these questions below ?! please try to answer it honestly...
1. According to you what is important the most important thing in a religion ? and what should be a good feature for a believer who believes in a religion ?
2. What concept do you love in Christianity ? and why ?
3. What is the thing that you are against most in Islam I mean what is that you think as "cannot acceptable" for you in Islam ? and Why ?
4. What is your claim for trinity ?
5. Are you honest to believe if you see the truth itself with your mind? Does your heart will let your mind free to believe the truth ? If you are a believer then you should ask such these questions to yourself first ... If you are here to learn and seek for proofs then will you be enough mature to accept these evidences ?
wassalam,
deepblue
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 6:50am
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http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=51745&FID=10 - kmohareb " I want you to know, when we discuss these issues with you or with any other christian, our heart is clean and our intentions are sincere. We don't debate hoping to win, but more for you to see the truth. "
Yes and the main reason I am here is to help correct false believes that Muslims have o9f Christians. Honeto example of a prediction of Jesus' - what is to happen since He is on earth.
honeto is not honoring Jesus by saying these things!!!
1. According to you what is important the most important thing in a religion ? and what should be a good feature for a believer who believes in a religion ? Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul. Love all people as you love yourself. Agape. Display the fruits of the Spirit in your life.
2. What concept do you love in Christianity ? and why ? GOD loves us so much that He was willing to give of Himself for our salvation. It all makes so much sense. The pure truth of the "human nature of man" as revealed in the Bible. GOD really knows us!!!
3. What is the thing that you are against most in Islam I mean what is that you think as "cannot acceptable" for you in Islam ? and Why ? I am not sure that the Quran has been translated correctly. There are facts that non-religious historians have made that the Quran ignores. Quran is just one man's word. As a clear guidance to man it is not clear. Some take verses to mean violence towards others- that is no longer needed since Jesus has paid our debt.
One verse in Quran says someting to the effect that Allah increases the disease of our heart. The GOD I know would not do this, but He might allow the disease to increase. GOD allows us to descend to the deepest depths -It becomes a lesson for us- GOD allows us to learn from our mistakes and make ammends.
What has been revealed to me about the Quran? The Quran HAS NOT been correctly translated!!
4. What is your claim for trinity ? God is omnipresent, He is capable of manifesting in any way He needs to get our attention. GOD has a plan and it has been played out during the life of man. I have felt the comfort and healing of Jesus and heard the voice of the Holy Spirit. Jesus commands us:
Matthew 2819Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."5. Are you honest to believe if you see the truth itself with your mind? Does your heart will let your mind free to believe the truth ? Yes the Holy Spirit helps me in discernment. I have accepted Muslim's explaination of using Allah for GOD. I believe that Mohammad truely saw the huge mistake in worshipping all the idols. Mohammad got it right about the One True GOD. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 3:46pm
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Hi believer,
I don't know what you are saying when you wrote this above;
"Yes and the main reason I am here is to help correct false believes that Muslims have o9f Christians. Honeto example of a prediction of Jesus' - what is to happen since He is on earth.
honeto is not honoring Jesus by saying these things!!! "
beleiver could you clarify what you mean here. Thanks
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: deepblue
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 3:23am
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Hi believer,
1. According to you what is important the most important thing in a religion ? and what should be a good feature for a believer who believes in a religion ? Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul. Love all people as you love yourself. Agape. Display the fruits of the Spirit in your life.
So as you call yourself believer, you love God with all your heart and soul...good for you then I want to ask how do you show your love to God... and what about serve to Him ? understanding accept and obey to Him? You think that these are nonsense because no need for them, Jesus already Sacrifice himself for humanity for you he already served to humanity... then I think you are afraid to take any responsibility... Jesus is not responsible for your actions for your truths or sins even goods.
2. What concept do you love in Christianity ? and why ? GOD loves us so much that He was willing to give of Himself for our salvation. It all makes so much sense. The pure truth of the "human nature of man" as revealed in the Bible. GOD really knows us!!!
Yes God really know you but unfortunately you dont know Him. No need for any kind of salvation... According to what you are saying, I understand there is an idolatry mentality in Christianity...
3. What is the thing that you are against most in Islam I mean what is that you think as "cannot acceptable" for you in Islam ? and Why ? I am not sure that the Quran has been translated correctly. There are facts that non-religious historians have made that the Quran ignores. Quran is just one man's word. As a clear guidance to man it is not clear. Some take verses to mean violence towards others- that is no longer needed since Jesus has paid our debt.
Jesus cannot pay your debt...is it so difficult to understand this? You will pay your debt to God...You have a mind, you can think you can feel and you can act as you like so you are the one who is responsible for yourself not anyone else... About violence look at the world now and look at the history you will see whose religion can let and whose religion cannot let violence indeed.
One verse in Quran says someting to the effect that Allah increases the disease of our heart. The GOD I know would not do this, but He might allow the disease to increase. GOD allows us to descend to the deepest depths -It becomes a lesson for us- GOD allows us to learn from our mistakes and make ammends.
If someone do good things his or her heart takes beautiful breath if you do bad things your heart get disease and according to your deeds Allah either save you or increase your diseases of your heart. This is not punishment but this is reality and this the structure of human being who consists of body, soul and mind and heart. This is an equation there should be balance in this equation if you give minus to one then you will see the other will increase...
What has been revealed to me about the Quran? The Quran HAS NOT been correctly translated!!
YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG. Bible has changed because there is "a telling system" in Christianity...but in Islam there is "a memorizing system" which protects the words...
4. What is your claim for trinity ? God is omnipresent, He is capable of manifesting in any way He needs to get our attention. GOD has a plan and it has been played out during the life of man. I have felt the comfort and healing of Jesus and heard the voice of the Holy Spirit. Jesus commands us:
You did not understand my question here. What is your fact, proof for trinity, I meant ?
5. Are you honest to believe if you see the truth itself with your mind? Does your heart will let your mind free to believe the truth ? Yes the Holy Spirit helps me in discernment. I have accepted Muslim's explaination of using Allah for GOD. I believe that Mohammad truely saw the huge mistake in worshipping all the idols. Mohammad got it right about the One True GOD. So, you dont call Jesus as God, right ?
deepblue |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 4:45am
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honeto simply that - I explained -
Matthew 10:34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."
but you kept implying that Jesus had different motives
Denying the crucifixion when even non Christian historians say it did certainly happen is a terrible dishonor to Jesus. Whether you believe He is a manifestation of GOD or mere man.
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 5:07am
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Praising GOD in thought word and deed. LOL!! no Is this taught in Muslim school- that Christiansdon't take responsibility? Remember faith without works is dead.
James 2
Faith and Deeds14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that�and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. I understand there is an idolatry mentality in Christianity... Then you understand wrong!! Who is teaching you about Chrisitians-they lie.
Jesus cannot pay your debt...is it so difficult to understand this? Sad for those that do not believe this for you will be judged under the law and no man is capable of living by the law.
Allah either save you or increase your diseases of your heart. This is not punishment but this is reality and this the structure of human being who consists of body, soul and mind and heart. This is an equation there should be balance in this equation if you give minus to one then you will see the other will increase... Why would GOD increas hypocrisy when he hates hypocrites? GOD allows those to stumble in there sin in hopes that lessons will be learned. Usually in their deepest dispair people come around to GOD.
What has been revealed to me about the Quran? The Quran HAS NOT been correctly translated!!
YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG. Bible has changed because there is "a telling system" in Christianity LOL!! Did you ever play telephone as a child? A group of children sit in a circle. One starts a messageand it is passed around to the last. The message is almost always different then the original.
I am going to trust my soul with something that has been proven truth- by prophecy, textual criticizm, standing the test of being ripped apart and scrutinized back and forth and upside down.
Someday Muslims will see the benefit of doing this
God is omnipresent, He is capable of manifesting in any way He needs to get our attention. GOD has a plan and it has been played out during the life of man. I have felt the comfort and healing of Jesus and heard the voice of the Holy Spirit. Jesus commands us:
You did not understand my question here. What is your fact, proof for trinity, I meant ?
Matthew 2819Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."5. Are you honest to believe if you see the truth itself with your mind? Does your heart will let your mind free to believe the truth ? Yes the Holy Spirit helps me in discernment. I have accepted Muslim's explaination of using Allah for GOD. I believe that Mohammad truely saw the huge mistake in worshipping all the idols. Mohammad got it right about the One True GOD. So, you dont call Jesus as God, right ? Jesus is a manifestation of GOD ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: deepblue
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 9:51am
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Praising GOD in thought word and deed. LOL!! no Is this taught in Muslim school- that Christiansdon't take responsibility? Remember faith without works is dead.
No I think this is what is taught in Christianity that Jesus will pay your debt so you dont owe anything to God. This must sound good for you. To think like this someone should have a easy mind!I understand there is an idolatry mentality in Christianity... Then you understand wrong!! Who is teaching you about Chrisitians-they lie.
No one is teaching me for anything this is what I realised about most of the Christians I met and this is true. If you think it is not then prove it by with your words not by verses from Bible. Jesus cannot pay your debt...is it so difficult to understand this? Sad for those that do not believe this for you will be judged under the law and no man is capable of living by the law.
Why ? You live under the law your government and you pay your tax isnt it ?
Allah either save you or increase your diseases of your heart. This is not punishment but this is reality and this the structure of human being who consists of body, soul and mind and heart. This is an equation there should be balance in this equation if you give minus to one then you will see the other will increase... Why would GOD increas hypocrisy when he hates hypocrites? GOD allows those to stumble in there sin in hopes that lessons will be learned. Usually in their deepest dispair people come around to GOD.
I did not understand what you meant here.
What has been revealed to me about the Quran? The Quran HAS NOT been correctly translated!!
YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG. Bible has changed because there is "a telling system" in Christianity LOL!! Did you ever play telephone as a child? A group of children sit in a circle. One starts a messageand it is passed around to the last. The message is almost always different then the original.
Yes exactly and this is exactly what happened to your bible. In order to memorize you need either hear much more than once or read several times. Christians could not give that second chance to Bible unfortunately. So you see It was enough to give a second chance no need for telephone game!!
I am going to trust my soul with something that has been proven truth- by prophecy, textual criticizm, standing the test of being ripped apart and scrutinized back and forth and upside down.
Someday Muslims will see the benefit of doing this
God is omnipresent, He is capable of manifesting in any way He needs to get our attention. GOD has a plan and it has been played out during the life of man. I have felt the comfort and healing of Jesus and heard the voice of the Holy Spirit. Jesus commands us:
You did not understand my question here. What is your fact, proof for trinity, I meant ?
Matthew 2819Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."You did not understand again... I mean what is YOUR fact, claim to accept such illogical concept... Trinity is just a concept, can you prove it not with YOUR WORDS...
5. Are you honest to believe if you see the truth itself with your mind? Does your heart will let your mind free to believe the truth ? Yes the Holy Spirit helps me in discernment. I have accepted Muslim's explaination of using Allah for GOD. I believe that Mohammad truely saw the huge mistake in worshipping all the idols. Mohammad got it right about the One True GOD. So, you dont call Jesus as God, right ? Jesus is a manifestation of GOD
What do you mean by manifestation ?
PS: Why do you LOL ? I did not say anything for your laugh!! According to me your some words are so absurd too but I did not make LOL! Please be councious.
deepblue |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 3:15pm
beleiver,
I respect your opinion. But in my opinion you are relying on a non-credible source that has proven to contradict its own contents. And according to its own contents, if anyone speaks a word against Jesus, he will be forgiven. Even though I will never utter a word against our beloved prophet Jesus (pbuh).
There are contradictions even about the same event you are talking about, crucifixion in your book.
You believe Jesus was God. It is obsurd to think that the Creator of this universe and of all will be hanged and humiliated and (killed) by His own creatures. Its not a moment to LOL, but COL
 (cry out loud) for a grave utterance agaist God, that you will be hold accountable for, and will have to pay for it. Not only this is speaking against Jesus but also against God, and remember your own book, " if you speak a word agaisnt God, it will not be forgiven.Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 6:33pm
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honeto- you mean the varying eyewitness accounts- that actually lends even more credibility. Eyewitnesses never have the exact same minute details remembered.
The most important thing though was that Jesus was placed in the tomb, the rock was rolled and sealed in place, a guard stood by and then it was empty!!
Remember though it was only the human form that was holding the spirit of GOD. Yes it is horrible to think that people did this to Jesus a pure and sinless being. Jesus forgave the people for crucifying Him!!!
Have you ever been to a Good Friday Church service? It is heart renching.
I don't expect you to believe that Jesus was GOD- I have heard many times from many people how hard it is for Muslims to understand.
Please don't deny the crucifixion. Mohammad/Allah is talking to the Jews here not the Christians. The Christians knew that Jesus was with GOD they saw Him ascend to Heaven
004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, [because Jesus' spirit did not die and he was raised up from the dead to GOD] and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- [because HE lives!!] PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. 004.158 honeto it is speaking against the Holy Spirit that can never be forgiven. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 6:37pm
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Mohammad /Allah is speaking to the Jews here also the verse previous. They rejected Faith- faith in Jesus, faith in salvation through Jesus' sacrifice. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 6:50pm
|
beleiver
that's the whole point, it is an account of various people, and I agree that different people will describe the same event differently, as in the case of the Bible.
Anything what God will reveal however is different than that. When it is God's word, it does not vary in account. And that's the case with the Quran. You have access to its original and the muti translations or interpretations, as each one of them have varying level of language ability as well as intellect to comprehend the meaning. But you don't have to take the translations as word of God, its the translation or interpretation only, next to the original Quran.
Quran is clear, when it says. they did not crucify Jesus, but it was made appear so. I am a believer in Quran and its account not just for this but also that he was a man, a prophet from God, and not himself God, or son of God.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Farooqui
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 10:43am
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Peace to you believer,
You're putting up a spirited defence but your foundations for argument are shaky.
When you speak of God giving of Himself "..He was willing to give of Himself for our salvation". If you meant Jesus (pbuh) was willing to give of himself, I agree he was, just as all pious messengers of his station were, it was why they were chosen.
Yes, you're correct, God does love us and has proclaimed this many times in both our books:
"...and persevere in doing good: behold, God loves the doers of good." 2:195
and He also proclaims who He doesn't love:
"but do not commit aggression- for, verily, God does not love the aggressors." 2:190....
..."...and God does not love corruption." 2:205
..or on misguided love:
"And yet there are people who choose to believe in beings that allegedly rival God, loving them as [only] God should be loved: whereas those who have attained to faith love God more than all else. If they who are bent on evildoing could but see - as see they will when they are made to suffer [on Resurrection Day] - that all might belongs to God alone, and that God is severe in [meting out] punishment!" 2:165.
History does repeat itself and man keeps making the same mistakes. The Children of Israel listened to the corrupt amongst them who led them towards love (and worship) of the golden calf. Those who repented received God's forgiveness and mercy. The Christians are reaping the seeds of previous leaders (in Rome), whose corruption is acknowledged by western commentators. The golden calf of the people of Moses (pbuh) is now the golden calf of the followers of Jesus (pbuh) in the form of the trinity conundrum.
This is why many thinking men of the church's clergy today doubt the tenets of trinity even if they remain quiet about it (some like the former bishop of Durham have stated it openly).
But God provides us with a way out:
"Verily, God loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and He loves those who keep themselves pure." 2:222
We need to accept that God's words cannot and will not change. That although humans will err, the errors can only be within limits as each time we err we correct it against an everlasting standard (we all have a measuring metre rule but we know that the standard -untampered - SImetre is held in Paris for us to refer to at any time).
God's words are correct and complete for all time and applicable to humanity no matter what period of history. These are in the form of the words uttered by the angel Gabrial and preserved. No intervention, supposition or revising by any human.
Alas the testimony of some biblical reporters would be hard pressed to stand up in a judicial court of today. Even if we had access to Jesus' own account - wouldn't that clear up a lot of issues! - it would be the chronicle and sayings of a (admittedly devinely guided) mortal.
------------- The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of the self. (Bukhari) |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 5:17pm
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LOL!! I'll set my foundation on the Bible anyday.
I know you will not understand this but I will give it a try. The crucifixion is not a parable- story. GOD would be lying if, in the 4 accounts of eyewitnesses to the true event, He allowed only His words to tell what happened. GOD chose real people to eyewitness this account.
Now if Uthmann had his way with the Bible he would have burned all but one of the accounts!!! Uthmann did a great disservice to Islam, Allah, the Quran when he burned the varying Qurans.
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Farooqui
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:09am
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Believer - Oh dear, ("any day" except I wish you well for the most important day).
Why would God be lying when it is (only) 4 human witnesses that rely on a fallible human chain to pass and preserve it, (impossible without the guidelines and mechanism to support it over the millenia). Please do explain.
To correct you H. Uthman never destroyed a single word or syllable of God's words (as a believeing muslim he would have known the magnitude of such a sin and in any case would have the people replace him instantly for he was accountable to them), but he laid down a standardised order of the verses - we still know the chronological order. I'm afraid this is one pot you can't stir
 ------------- The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of the self. (Bukhari) |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 8:42am
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Believer,
I find you less convincing each time you post. You start an arguement about "unity" and then start attacking so and so for burning different versions of the quran? Please stay on the subject
I feel you may not be here to argue in a constructive manner but simply to condemn. Your lack of education outside your Christian indoctrination is is in question. As for us Muslims, we are for the most part encouraged to "think outside the box" and study our subjects before arguing them. You may be taught to follow one line, that of blind faith with threats if you do not walk inside the lines. the truine philosophy originated in the Egyptian and some of the hindi religions and is not based on the teachings of Abraham (may he have peace). Abraham believed in the one and only divine true God, know as Allah in Arabic, Elah in Aramaic, and there are variations such as elohim, which is nearly synonymous with the Rabb in Arabic. If you peruse some of the earlier copies of the hebrew scriptures that were found in the dead sea and other earlier scrolls, you will see that they are different than what your emperor Constantine passed down to you in your "christian scriptures," Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is one God" out of the Mouth of Jesus himself as quoted in your christian scriptures when he did his first reading at the Jewish temple as quoted in the gospel, or Injeel.
What is your answer to that and the true first commandment as written in Exodus 20, the second book of the torah?
Can you give me some EVIDENCE besides just your OPINION? ------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: Farooqui
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 9:21am
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I just wondered in general where do the Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses (and Christadelphians) fit in to the worldwide church. They too reject the notion of Jesus (pbuh) being the son of God. How do they reconcile the idea of one God who never apears in triplicate? ------------- The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of the self. (Bukhari) |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 5:05pm
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Jehovah Witness believe that Jesus is GOD's Son. Two separate beings.
Unitarians believe that Jesus is GOD, one being. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 5:17pm
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http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58061&FID=10 - Farooqui - I was giving honeto the example of a way the Bible would have not had the 4 Gospels. LOL!! OK I will say it again. I believe in the One True GOD. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 5:49pm
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beleiver,
I am sure you are aware, and I have read long time algo that there were more than four Gospels, but only four made it to the compilation that we have today??
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 6:04am
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honeto - Yes! that si true.
You can go to any library and find the other books. None were destroyed. Nothing was hidden, destroyed as when Uthmann burned some of the Quran which I believe did a great injustice to Islam and the Quran.
Saving all the writings allows each person to understand, see for themselves why the other books were not included in the Holy Bible.
The miracle of the Holy Bible can withsatnd all the scrunity, critisim thrown at it. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 8:22am
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Believer, We know how the Quran was arranged and very well that not a letter has been changed from it, as revealed to the Prophet Muhammmad(pbuh). So please, you are only wasting your time here with your twisted ideas. Perhaps you should be looking for the 20 odd Gospels Irenaeus got rid off. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 10:06am
Because they do not believe the word of the prophets or of God found in the Bible, thus they are in fact anti christian as they do not except what Jesus said!
|
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 6:50pm
But the four accounts are not eyewitness accounts.... No one really knows who wrote the four Gospels and modern theologians and Bible scholars who have studied the remaining hand written copies agree that the authors cannot be verified.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 6:54pm
Robin,
you are probably one of those God fearing Christians mentioned in the Quran, since you do not set others beside God as partners in godhead.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 1:07am
Philippians 2:5-6
Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God�s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
|
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 1:09am
That is what the Bible has always said.
|
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 1:15am
Matthew Matthew c. 41 C.E. 1Thessalonians Paul c. 50 C.E. 2Thessalonians Paul c. 51 C.E. Galatians Paul c. 50-52 C.E. Luke Luke c. 56-58 C.E. Romans Paul c. 56 C.E. 1 Corinthians Paul c. 55 C.E. 2 Corinthians Paul c. 55 C.E. Ephesians Paul c. 60-61 C.E. Philippians Paul c. 60-61 C.E. Colossians Paul c. 60-61 C.E. Philemon Paul c. 60-61 C.E. Mark Mark c. 60-65 C.E. Hebrews Paul c. 61 C.E. Acts Luke c. 61 C.E. 1 Timothy Paul c. 61-64 C.E. Titus Paul c. 61-64 C.E. James James (Jesus' Brother) b. 62 C.E. 1 Peter Peter c. 62-64 C.E. 2 Peter Peter c. 64 C.E. 2 Timothy Paul c. 65 C.E. Jude Jude (Jesus' Brother) c. 65 C.E. Revelation John c. 96 C.E. John John c. 98 C.E. 1 John John c. 98 C.E. 2 John John c. 98 C.E. 3 John John c. 98 C.E. a. = after b. = before c. = about |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 11:02am
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LOL!! robin and I have a very different view of Chrisitanity. Do not be hopeful that robin's belief is closer to Islam then mine.
robin please correct me if I am wrong.
We know Jesus was crucified. Jesus was on earth under the authority of GOD. A gift of love to us from GOD for our salvation. Jesus' death attones for our sins.
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 May 2008 at 6:13pm
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believer,
we will let Robin answer for herself, let me say this though that Robin (as far as I understand so far) does not worship Jesus besides God or as God like you do. Thus she does not associate partners beside God in godhead. Thus she does not commit that one unforgiveable sin (also mentioned in the Bible as such) of blasphemy agaisnt God. Thus closer to us than you, if not the same.
God knows best what is in each one of us' heart.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 28 May 2008 at 1:03am
True.
As you say "under the authority of GOD" and a lesser being, as Jesus himself said:-
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
The only person with greater authority and power than Jesus Christ in the universe is Jehovah God.
|
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 28 May 2008 at 6:48am
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To Believer n Robin, I do believe that there was a crucifixion. And many people witnessed it.
But the big question is who was crucified?
an-Nisa' 4:157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
[an-Nisa' 4:158] Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
In other words, the image that can be found vastly in churches are the images of Judas, the man that betrayed Jesus. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 6:15am
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LOL! Nur- you are half way to the truth. When you have a question because the Quran is not explicit then you must go back to the Gospel and Torah to get the whole story.
Friends and family of Jesus were at His crucifixion. Another could not have been switched with Jesus. The Quran doesn't say that.
That verse is easily explained because Jesus did not remain dead, crucified- He rose and sits with GOD to this day.
Remember Jesus' soul never died!! It is just His outer shell that ceased to live. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 1:07pm
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believer,
you said it right:
"He rose and sits with GOD to this day. "
We do believe the same.
You further say:
"Remember Jesus' soul never died!! It is just His outer shell that ceased to live."
Correct, we all have a body and a soul like you mentioned Jesus did, the body dies, the soul lives on. On the day of Judgement, the body and the soul will be reunited as God will raise our physical bodies again.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |