Print Page | Close Window

Does everyone think they are a scholar?

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: Matters/topics, related to various sects, are discussed where only Muslims who may or may not belong to a sect take part.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1202
Printed Date: 28 March 2024 at 4:38pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Does everyone think they are a scholar?
Posted By: Jenni
Subject: Does everyone think they are a scholar?
Date Posted: 13 June 2005 at 5:07pm
As I read all of the posts I wonder how much time all of you have for studying every intricate detail of Islam. Isn't our religion supposed to be simple and easy enough for even a peasant or farmer to follow? I don't believe that for hundreds of years people knew of all the Hadiths and rules that people are trying to follow now. In olden times when people had to work hard they only had time to do the basics. Fast,pray, sacrifice a lamb for Eid ect. They did not know the hundreds of duas and all of the rules that four schools of thought disagree on. Doesn't anyone else think its all a little ridicules? How many people actually think that some of the minor details in life like covering your glass of water(found in a book I have of the traditions of the Messenger)will actually get you into paradise when people can't even be kind to thier neighbors and be good to thier husbands and wives? I am frankly tired of it all, and like many many Muslims want to be as good as I can without everyone with a computer a few books and the internet thinking they are an expert. If all you do is study Islam, who is caring for your life?

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.



Replies:
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 13 June 2005 at 7:44pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

No sister, that is the simple answer.

Islam is simple for those who are dont wish to get closer to Allah or are not scholars. But Allah himself in the Quran says if you bring all the oceans and use the trees as pens they will be exauhsted before the knowledge of Allah is. It is only people who are not educated in Islam which attack its scholarship claiming its all simple why make it complicated while not realising that what makes it simple is the work of scholars in preserving the Quran and sunnah for 1400 years and condensing it into point form so the average person doesnt have to know 5 different sciences to know his Aqeedah properly or how to pray properly.

The laws for inheritence and business are among the most complicated aspect of our deen and no average person can or will ever grasp them properly with out the aid of an expert. I think what is missing today is the holistic implementation of islam in our lives for us to truly see the depth of knowledge and understanding required by the average person not simply what are the conditions that must be fulfiled in order for prayer or fasting to be valid.

These in themselves are dificult if a person is atempting to get closer to his Rabb not simply fulfil an obligation. Islam is as simple and dificult as a person wants it to be or rather to what degree is he seeking to get closer to Allah.

"Are those who know equal with those who dont"?

The average person can not even tell you how to achieve taqwa or Khushu or what Ihsan is.

Yes they did know the rules of the madhhabs it was common and general knwoledge back then like no doubt you know who brad pit is today and who he is dating at the moment. islam was all around them non of the distractions that exist today where there.

Islam is for everyone the inteligent and the not so inteligent as well as the average person Allahs knowledge is never ending.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 13 June 2005 at 8:33pm
I understand what you are saying, yet my mother in law who only went to school until the age of sixteen and is not a scholar is kind and generous and prays with all of her heart. She is one of the reasons I became a Muslim. Her goodness influenced me and seeing her read the Quran. She was born in and raised in a Muslim country and I'm sure she does not know what KHUSHU or IHSAN is. She was a widow with 3 kids at the age of 29 and raised them herself. She was a mother and sister, daughter and neighbor. Caring for others  and now loving her grandchildren. So do you think because she does not have great knowledge of scholarship she is not close to AllaH Pak? I think Allah is the only reason she made it as a widow and her closeness to him is what made her survive her grief and raise her children without remarrying. Please don't give me the intelectual argument, is your mother a scholar?

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 13 June 2005 at 8:56pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Quote So do you think because she does not have great knowledge of scholarship she is not close to AllaH Pak? I think Allah is the only reason she made it as a widow and her closeness to him is what made her survive her grief and raise her children without remarrying. Please don't give me the intelectual argument, is your mother a scholar?


There are 7 levels of heaven sister, those in the lowest level are the furthest away from allah even though in relation to the people of hell they would be considered close to him. those in the highest level are the nearest.

Would you say your mother is destined for the highest level of Jannah? from what you described no, as there degrees of closness.

Not every scholar is destined for the highest level of jannah and you do not need be a scholar but having understanding in the religion means you know your path to Allah.

Allah himself made the distinction between those who have knowledge and those who dont when asked "are those who know equal with those who dont".

You are judgeing according to your understanding which seems to be black and white but nothing is either this or that there are degrees to everything even hell has 7 levels according to which a person deserves.

It is reported on the authority of �Umar b. al-Khattab that he said:

�One day, while we were sitting with Rasulallah (s), a man appeared before us.  His garments were sparkling white; his hair the darkest black.  No signs of travel appeared on him.  None of us recognized him.  He went to the Prophet (s) and sat in front of him, placing his knees before [the Prophet�s] knees.  He also placed his hands upon the Prophet�s thighs, saying: �Muhammad, What is Islam?�                  
Rasulallah, (s), replied, saying: �Islam is to testify that there is no deity save Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; to establish regular prayer; to give regular alms; to fast Ramadan; and, to visit Allah�s House as a pilgrim, if you are able.�                  
The stranger said, �You speak the truth.�                  
�Umar said: We were amazed that he would ask him [a question], then tell him he was truthful!                  
The stranger said: �Muhammad, what is faith?�                 
"Rasulallah replied, saying: �Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in [the Divine] Power, its good and its ill.�                  
The stranger said: �You speak the truth.�  Then, he said: �What is Ihsan?�                  
Rasulallah replied, saying: Ihsan is to serve Allah as though you see Him, but if you see Him not, then [to serve Him knowing] He sees you.'
The stranger said: �You speak the truth.�  Then, he said: �Can you inform me about the Hour?�
Rasulallah replied, saying: �The questioned knows no more about it then the questioner.�
The stranger said: �Then tell me of its signs.�
Rasulallah said: �[Among] its signs are that the slave woman shall give birth to her mistress, and that the poor, naked and barefoot, the herders of sheep, shall compete in raising tall buildings.�
The stranger tarried but a moment before departing.  The Prophet (s) said to me: � �Umar, do you know who was the questioner?�  I replied that Allah and His Messenger knew better. 
Rasulallah (s) said: �This is Jibril.  He came to teach you your religion.��




-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Abu Hadi
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 4:21am

Salams to All

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim

Noone has the right to say who is closer to Allah(s.w.a) and who is further away because noone knows this except Allah(s.w.a). I am by no means a scholar, I never claimed to be one, nor do I do this full time. I have a full time job and I do this when I have a few minutes. I think like most of us, we belive that we are doing our Islamic duty to increase our own knowledge and Enjoin Good and Forbid evil. Both of these are things that we were commanded to do by our Holy Prophet(a.s.).

Personally, I have received some private emails (and I'm sure others on this forum have also received these) saying that this person benefitted from something I posted and to continue posting. That is why I continue. I also have a family, car payments, a mortgage. I don't receive any money for this. I think we all need to set aside something for the next life by way of good deeds, because our paychecks (however large or small) will not help us then. There are certainly other ways of doing good deeds.



-------------
There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error...
Quran Ch.2 Verse 256


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 7:34am

Salam to Jenni, Rami and Abu Hadi,

Jenny wrote

" As I read all of the posts I wonder how much time all of you have for studying every intricate detail of Islam. "

Well Jenny, since you're in the U.S., you know that the average American adult spends 15-20 hours per week watching television, 5 hrs. per weeks playing video games, etc. In my economics class in college, I learned about something called " Opportunity Cost", which means, every hour of your life has a cost associated with it. I choose to spend some of my "free time" in learning about Islam (from books and others), and sharing my knowledge. And, in case you're wondering, I have alot of other things going on in my life besides this forum (I guess you'll just have to take my word for that).

Jenny wrote

" They did not know the hundreds of duas and all of the rules that four schools of thought disagree on. "

From the Holy Quran, we know that Allah (s.w.a.) does not place on us a burden greater than we can bear, and does not judge us by any standard other than our knowledge and capacities (which he knows well, being our creator.) By your action of "freely choosing" to read these post means that you may have a greater-than-average capacity to understand the issues discussed. If so, then maybe you should continue to read and participate in this forum (as you find the time and energy to do so.)

Jenny wrote

I am frankly tired of it all, and like many many Muslims want to be as good as I can without everyone with a computer a few books and the internet thinking they are an expert.

Being as good as you can, as knowledgable as you can, etc. is all Allah (s.w.a) expects from you (but don't underestimate yourself). I have said many times in my posts (maybe I should add it do my signiature) that I AM NOT A SCHOLAR. I do not even speak or write Arabic fluently, so I cannot be a scholar by definition. This is why I try to always cite my sources, and rely on scholarly references for my statements. I am a student, and I am just trying to learn more about Islam and share my knowledge with others.

I know that the majority of Muslims are not interested in these subjects. If you want to just "do the basics", noone is here to judge you or tell you what you should do. This is why we are Muslims, i.e., we do not depend on the opinions of others, but on the Quran, The prophets (a.s.) and his purified progeny for guidance.

Verily, Verily, deeds are more important than words or argument!

Salam



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 7:52am
So Rami you can say she is not destined for the Highest level of paradise, Why???? Has she not fulfilled her duty in life as a wife, mother and member of her community. She has fasted, said her prayers and payed Zakat. She HAS DONE WHAT WAS REQUIRED OF HER> And has a kind heart. By the way since I dont claim to be knowledgable isn't there a verse in the Quran or a Hadith I'm not sure that says most people in heaven will have been poor. Lets think in most poor countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Egypt most poor people can't read or write. They probably only learned and memorized thier prayers and know the basics of being a Muslim, they fast and pray. So you think that if you have more knowledge you are better than them and destined to a higher level in paradise than they are? Doesn't it say in the Quran you are judged by your good and bad deeds? So If I have 20 hours a week to spare between my Husband,and children and caring for myself and I spend all of it on scholarly reading or I spend 3 hours reading and 17 voluntering my time and helping the elderly or working with children, which in your intelectual eyes is more important???

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 8:17am

Salam to Jenni,

" So If I have 20 hours a week to spare between my Husband,and children and caring for myself and I spend all of it on scholarly reading or I spend 3 hours reading and 17 voluntering my time and helping the elderly or working with children, which in your intelectual eyes is more important??? "

Allah hu Alim (God (alone) is the judge!) As I said before, I am not here to judge you or tell you what to do. You know yourself, your life situation, etc. better than anyone except Allah (s.w.a.), and you are the best person to make that judgement. As for me, I am seeking knowledge because it is highly encouraged in Islam (as is voluntering time and helping the elderly or working with children). Allah (s.w.a) created us as individuals, and given us many ways to "move towards" him.

Noone knows the true value of an individual except Allah (s.w.a.) Anyone who says, "I am better than him/her" is only imitating the Shaytan (Satan) when he refused to obey the command of Allah (s.w.a.) and bow down to Adam. Arrogance is the root of disobedience to Allah (s.w.a.)

Salam.



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 3:51pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

You seem to be upset over nothing, is your mother destined for the highest level of jannah "from what you described no" that is a conditional statment, conditional to your description of her.


Quote So Rami you can say she is not destined for the Highest level of paradise, Why????


Insha Allah you will see what i am talking about from the following.

Reqarding those who are closest to Allah Sayyidina `Ali, as related by Ibn al-Jawzi in the chapter devoted to him in Sifat al-safwa:

They are the fewest in number, but the greatest in rank before Allah. Through them Allah preserves His proofs until they bequeath it to those like them (before passing on) and plant it firmly in their hearts. By them knowledge has taken by assault the reality of things, so that they found easy what those given to comfort found hard, and found intimacy in what the ignorant found desolate. They accompanied the world with bodies whose spirits were attached to the highest regard (al-mahall al-a`la). Ah, ah! how one yearns to see them!


in Surah Waaqiah Allah classifies people into three categories:

The people of the left-hand (Ashaab al-Mash-amah).

the people of the right-hand (Ashaab al-Maymanah).

Those who are near to Allah (Muqarraboon); alternatively referred to as the "Foremost".

The first group are those who have rejected faith. The second group are the righteous ones who are consistent in the fulfilment of their duties towards Allah. They are described as "a multitude of those of old and a multitude of those of later times (Waaqiah :39-40). And finally their are the Muqarraboon. They are a special group of believers who have attained the highest rank in spiritual development. They are often described as the elect of the elect (Khawaas ul-Khaswaas) whose intensity of faith (iman) has bestowed upon them the special privilege of enjoying nearness to Allah.

They are described in this Surah as being "a multitude of those of old and a few of later times" (Waaqiah : 13-14).

This idea of nearness to Allah is similarly expressed in a Sacred Tradition;

"My servant continually seeks to draw near to Me through supererogatory acts until I love him. And when I love him I become the ears with which he hears, the eyes with which he sees, the hand with which he grasps, and the feet with which he walks" (Bukhari).

Supererogatory mean acts of worship which are not obligatory to do.

The highest level of jannah is the one reseved for the prophets and the awliyah (saints) from each community as well as the martyrs and righteous.

Whoso obey Allah and the Messenger, they are with those unto whom Allas has shown favor, of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they! (4:69)

some basic beliefs concernig the awliyah (loosly translated as muslim saint)

1. A Wali is a pious Muslim, who due to his knowledge and closeness to Allah Ta'ala, has been given a specific position.

2. Usually this grade is given to a Wali due to his strict followance the Shari'ah and also his devotion and his worship.

3. Wilaayat is, however, sometimes given to a person from birth and, therefore, without devotion and effort.

4. From the Awliyah-e-Ummat-e-Muhammadi, the most superior Awliyah are the four Khulafa, namely Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar, Hazrat Uthman and Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhum) and then all the Sahaba-e-Kiraam. All the Sahaba are also Awliyah. The source of the blessing for the Awliyah after these is Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhu). In other words, they are all blessed with Wilayah through the blessing of Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhu).

5. From the Awliyah of all the Ummah(creation), the greatest Awliyah are from the Ummah of Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam).

6. There have been Awliya in every era and there will always be Awliya in every era, however, their recognition may be difficult.

Allahu alam sister according to number three your mother maybe a waliyah i cant say, but the point is ordinary muslims are the people of the right hand not the formost with allah.

Quote By the way since I dont claim to be knowledgable isn't there a verse in the Quran or a Hadith I'm not sure that says most people in heaven will have been poor


I dont know but there is a hadith which says somethin similar. Being poor it self is not a condition of entering heaven or why people enter it. Simply becouse you are poor certainly doesn not mean you will be granted the Highest level of Jannah sister, people enter heaven they each take there rank in what ever level of jannah Allah has granted them.

Quote So you think that if you have more knowledge you are better than them and destined to a higher level in paradise than they are? Doesn't it say in the Quran you are judged by your good and bad deeds?


No i never said that, i said those who have knowledge know the path to Allah better than those who dont, Allah himself says it in the Quran
"Say: 'Are those who know equal to those who know not?' It is only men of understanding who will remember." [39:9]

we dont use one verse in the Quran to contradict another verse. Our deeds are judged according to our intentions and what is in our hearts, We are talking about those in the highest level not those who will enter heaven this group is much fewer in number. Would you say the majority of people are on equal terms with the companions of rasul allah becoue we are talking about those who are.

Quote So If I have 20 hours a week to spare between my Husband,and children and caring for myself and I spend all of it on scholarly reading or I spend 3 hours reading and 17 voluntering my time and helping the elderly or working with children, which in your intelectual eyes is more important???


If you do not act upon what you read your knowledge is useless, and you only read so you know what you should do to get closer to Allah. Reading it self or being a scholar is not the Key to Jannah,  among the first group of people placed in hell on the day of judgment is a scholar who used to tell people what to do and not do it himself! this is called hypocracy.




-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 9:04am
While you give alot of info to try to back up your claim I still believe that simple people without alot knowledge can be closest to Allah Pak. It is all in thier intention and deeds. I am tired of the complexity that people get into and debate over Islamic Issues. No one really agrees and it all reminds me of being a christian and all the different churches who teach differently. But what is clear is said in the Quran, paying Zakat, Praying, Fasting, how to be a decent person and treat your neighbor. Those are the things the majority of Muslims in the world need to read over and over until the get it. By the way there are two schools of thought in Christianity, one believes that you get to heaven by your good works in life, what you do and how you help people within the boudries of being a christian. The other believes you get to heaven by how strongly you believe and how pure your faith is and how hard you pray and surrender yourself to christ. My question is in Islam what is more important, your good deeds and works or your knowledge and depth of faith? I believe some like me may not allways be 100% sure of ourselves in this world and our faith but we push through and do the best we can. We try to be good and do good deeds and pray and fast and pay Zakat. However we dont spend years of our life contemplatint Islam and how it applies to us and the universe. We are practical and more works based. Others like to a Study, debate, spend extra time praying, attend all the lectures they can and even write articles and books. I think both types of people are needed in any faith and one Is NO MORE important that the other in the Eyes of Allah Pak. If you had a city full of scholars, they would all die of starvation. Who would grow the food? Milk the cows, run the schools, care for the sick, teach the children? I mean come on if you want to spend your life studying you can but it is not a requirement of being a Muslim. And lastly its great that alot of men have the time and resources to engage in scholarly activities but I believe most women are deprived of those opportunities. Either because of culture of their native homeland or becuase thier husbands feel it is more a priority for them to go to lectures and study and leave thier wives home with the kids to do the housework. So who's fault is it the women don't become scholars and just learn the basics because they are struggling to care for thier children and extended family. Let me use myself as an example, I have 2 kids and my husband works between 60 and 70 hours a week. I go to college (not for fun so I will be able to work in a few years) 2 nights a week and have to study. We have no family here and my youngest is 2 years old. The point being I rarely get to just read for intelectual gain and go ot the mosque and go to lectures. This is my life and I like many are just struggling to the best I can. Most women are doing the same, some with little help from thier Husbands who take plenty of time for themselves. (Mashalla my husband is very helpful).

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 9:35am

Salam to sister Jenni,

I apologize for my short reply, however, I am also a little short on time (at the moment).

I like many of your points, and agree with most of what you say. I am also a revert to Islam (former Christian (Lutheren)). I'm sorry I don't have time to look up the verse (to give the exact reference), however, the Quran tells us that (paraphrasing) " To Allah ascends the good words, and the good deeds raise them up." In other words, faith, prayer, contemplation, learning, good deeds are ALL neccesary to progress spiritually. If you leave any of them, you will find that you will either stagnate (spritually), or fall backward.

Those who discuss Islam do so to their level of understanding. If you find the issues discussed here confusing, my advice is to ignore them for now. The basics (foundation) of Islam (i.e., the pillars), The Holy Quran and MOST of the Sunnah of the prophet is clear and agreed upon by all Muslims. The issues we are discussing here relate primarily to examination of (especially early) Islamic History, Leadership of the Muslims, Tafsir of Quran, etc. These subjects may not interest you at your present stage, or you may not have time for them. Either way, it's O.K. , Allah (s.w.a) alone is your guide. Depend on his guidance (not the guidance of the fallible individuals in this forum, myself included).

Salam

 



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: aisha
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 10:38am
salaam all,i think that knowledge is very important in islam,jenni maybe if you spent a little less time on the internet and picked up a book about islam you would have more knowledge(dont take this the wrong way)i myself have children to look after and a husband who works full time who i have to cook, clean and look after,i take arabic lessons and i attend meetings at the majid twice a week,stil i feel its not enough,also on your quote about poorer people in other countries in my husbands case he has lots of knowledge in islam .

-------------
aisha


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 12:56pm
to aisha I spend about 20 mins a day online while my kids are eating breakfast so that is not the problem, instead of reading a book about Islam I would rather Read THE BOOK, the Quran. And good for you attending meetings at the Mosque however that is optional for you, not required and neither is learning arabic. And by the way I have read many books like the Bible Quran and Science and Jesus prophet of Islam, and many others, how much is enough? Please don't give me derogatory advice.

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 1:52pm

Assalamu alaikum,

I have been reading this thread.  Here are my thoughts, take them or leave them.

(Jenni: I am not against what you have said, I feel the same way, which is why I started reading this thread in the first place!  It got me thinking...and these are my thoughts about it.)

I believe that men and women are different and absolutely think differently.  Men like to do things "the hard way", women seem to see the quickest, effecient way to solve things.  This probably has a lot to do with the fact that women are the caregivers and due to the enormous workload they carry each day, they don't have time to spend looking at everything from every angle, they just get it done!

Men seem to enjoy taking things apart and looking at each little bit, how it works, how it fits in with everything else, other possibilities for it and so on.  It has been my experience that men actually have a bit of trouble finding the quick and easy way to solve things, they seem to make "mountains out of mole hills".

Women are much more practical.  I am not saying that either is somehow deficient or that one is more intelligent than the other.  There are many different kinds of intelligence.  I am just saying that if you read around this forum you will find it is mostly the men who are into the long, drawn out examinations of issues from so many different angles and theories and justifications and ,,, (yawn).

I am not trying to start a male/female war here, far from that.  I have stated on other threads that we are different but this is Allah's plan - men and women complement one another - they complete each other.  Now, some men are more inclined to female thinking and some women are more inclined to male thinking - there are exceptions to any rule. 

The point is, if some wish to "study" Islam a little or study it to the hilt so be it.  If some wish to "live" Islam a little or live it to the hilt, so be it.  We need to support one another and try, each in our own way, to be good Muslims.

Let's stop being so picky about how others follow Islam, as long as they are not deviating from the path. 

We need to stick together Muslims!

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: aisha
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 2:18am
jenni,sorry you feel this way,i was only giving an example of how other people make time for learning,as for learning arabic dont you think its respect of the qu-ran if you can read it in is own scripture dont you think arabic script is so beautiful that you should learn it,it is after all the qu-rans original text.its is of course my view i love allah(swt)that much i wish to please him in every way,but hey thats just me,allah(swt)should come first.the closer you get to him through knowledge and love the closer he will want you to be to him after death inshallah

-------------
aisha


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 7:19am

Salam to Aisha, Ummziba and Jenni,

Aisha, I respect and admire the fact that you are learning Arabic (which I am also attempting) and other activities. However, I think that it is inappropriate to " maybe if you spent a little less time on the internet and picked up a book about islam you would have more knowledge." The Prophet (a.s.) has taught us to avoid criticizing a fellow Muslim unless they are doing something which is haram. I'm sure that your intention in doing this was good, however, it came across a little harsh (from where I sit!).

Ummziba, I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate your "fresh" perspective on the discussion. I know you did not mean to be critical when you said that "they seem to make "mountains out of mole hills", however, I want to say that this is not my intention. My main interest in this particular series of discussion threads is to point out to my fellow brothers and sisters the importance of following those whom our Holy Messenger (a.s.) intented us to follow, the identity of these individuals and their merits (as stated by the Quran and the Holy Prophet (a.s.) and his trustworthy companions.

I believe that the best knowedge is practical knowledge, and gaining knowledge is a pointless exercise unless it either changes the individual or helps him/her to change his family/community, etc. The issue of who should lead the Muslim (who is Adila, or, a just leader)  Umma ( there is only one) is particulary critical in our time. This also relates to many other subjects, which I can expand on if requested.

Salam



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 7:25am
sorrry aisha,I was a little defensive. I would like to learn some Arabic slowly, but my husband is from another country so I am trying to learn that language to teach the kids so when we visit they can communicate since all of his relatives live there(in southeast asia). I don't think in Islam you have to learn Arabic especially if you convert as an adult since it is a much greater task that learning as a child, but I think it is really good if you can. I don't feel knowing Arabic makes anyone a better Muslim though by any means. My husband learned for years to read Arabic to study Quran as a child but can not understand what he is reading and still has to read the translation, this is the case with many people in the world and I can listen to a verse on C.D. memorize and recite it and read the translation to know what it means. Most Muslims do not speak Arabic.
What is frustrating for me as a convert is that I have noticed that every Muslim wants you to be like them, whatever they do they want you to do. And no one is satisfied anymore in intelectual circles if you just want to be a good Muslim and be a nice mother and wife. Its like what are you studying now, who is your sheik, what is the school of thought you follow, I mean come on. It is all very annoying not just to me but to many many people I talk to. Many people only go to the Mosque for prayer and aviod interacting because they tire of useless comments from others. I'll give you an example My very good friend recently was at our Masjid she is half lebanese and half american and has no accent so people think she is a convert when she has been muslim all her life. She went to pick up a Quran from the bookshelve and a sister told her " oh no, you cant stand and walk while you hold the Quran, you must go on your knees." This lady proceded to demonstrate kneeling and scooting accross the floor with the Quran. My friend said well i hope you don't have to carry it very far, imagine if you had to go a few miles. My point is people make these kind of comments to me and others and we are sick of it. People love to make up rules where there should be none. Our religon is supposed to be simple enough that anyone, young or old, rich or poor, educated or not can follow it. Jenni


-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 8:01am

Salam to Jenni and others,

Sister, May Allah reward you for your efforts. I am sorry that you had this experience at a Mosque, as this should be the most friendly and welcoming place for a Muslim. I have visited many mosques in many part of the U.S. If you would like to inform the group (or PM me) as to what city, state you live in, I will try (inshahAllah) to recommend a mosque to your that will be more friendly.

Those people that want to "teach you about Islam" (i.e., give unsolicited and unwelcomed advice about religion) could probably learn more from you than you can from them! Being a revert, I can relate to your experience. I can also tell you that certain schools of thought within Islam (i.e., Salafi/Wahabbi) tend to breed intolerance and harsh behavior. I would recommend avoiding those types of enviroments.

P.S. RE: Carrying the Quran on your knees. I've never heard of this before, however, I'm sure that physical therapist and chiropractors across the world are grateful for all the new business this will create for them !!

Salam



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 8:12am

Assalamu alaikum,

Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

Ummziba, I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate your "fresh" perspective on the discussion. I know you did not mean to be critical when you said that "they seem to make "mountains out of mole hills", however, I want to say that this is not my intention.

No, I most certainly was not being critical, I was pointing out the perceived way in which men seem to take all things on as a big task.  As I pointed out in my post, I celebrate this difference between men and women.  We can't be the same, indeed, we must not be the same.  We complete each other, like two different parts that fit together very well, just as Allah intended.

Please feel free to pursue your intention for this thread (or any other).  My point is, that as long as we are not going against Islam, we should all be more supportive of each other rather than critical. 

I do understand Jenni's view point very well.  Far too many Muslims think "their" Islam is the only one and the true one.  Far too many Muslims "make up their own rules" about Islam and try to convince others it is the right path.

Yes, we must stop being critical, but, we must also "enjoin good and forbid evil" which entails stopping "local rules" and "personal interpretations of Islam" in their tracks.  The only way to do this, is through knowledge...

And now we are back to how much must we study Islam?  It seems being a good Muslim is a careful balance of study and deeds, each of us as we are capable of doing.

Aisha, I support and applaud your efforts to learn Arabic.  Ali Zaki, I support and applaud your efforts to use knowledge to get across your points.  Jenni, I support and applaud you in your efforts to be the best mother and wife you can be.  I should be supported and applauded for trying to bring a little harmony among a few Muslims (not being "full of myself" here - just making a point).

You see, we are four good Muslims who do not necessarily see eye to eye, but can be united as Muslims for the good of the ummah without having to be critical of one another.  Gentle reminding and good knowledge are the ways brothers and sisters should help one another stay on the right path.

What was in my milk this morning?  I sound like a crazed preacher!!!  Sorry!  I hope my point is not lost in all my rambling......

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 8:58am

Salam to Ummziba,

As for me, I will say Thank You for contributing to our discussion and adding to my understanding. I certainly know that you're intentions are good and sincere in what you say. I was pointing this out primarily because I know that there are others who think that I am unneccisarily complicating things. I just wanted to attempt to clarify my intentions. Thank you (again) for giving me the opportunity!

May Allah shower his blessings on you (and your family).



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: aisha
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 9:06am
salam,i must apologize jenni it seems i was a bit harsh on you, believe me it was not my intention.as a revert myself i should of understood more.reading what you wrote about your friend and the masjid made me think about a conversation i had with a friend it was about how cultures can be mixed with islam and through generations can be mistaken for allahs words and hadith.once again sorry if i offended you,sallam waalikum.

-------------
aisha


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 10:40am
No problem aisha, Ummziba is right we should all support each other and when we meet people who are Muslim meet them where they are at. We should not ask them too many questions and offer too much advice. Instead I have learned the most from people who set a good example. I have some friends who are practice thier religion and others who are on the edge of being Muslim. However when we have a gathering I invite all of them from different countries and stick them together. When it is time to pray those who want to do, and those who don't know the others are. We don't tell anyone Hey, you have to pray but maybe they will see the others and be inspired and think about it. I have quite a few friends who are persian and Shia, and we invite them with our Sunni friends to our house and no one argues about differences. I hope that if they have any questions they will ask and they can see us and our similarities and differences and maybe be inspired. This is the gentle way to influence people. Be kind, and non judgemntal unless someone is doing something seriously wrong. I wish more people would interact across cultures and be more open and understand there are differences it what people do and we don't have to all be the same. For example in one city Masjid the Pakistanis and Arabs are allways fighting. They can't agree on so many things I wonder how they can be practicing the same religion. And while they are cordial to each other in the Masjid they Rarely invite each other to gatherings in thier homes and I feel they even dislike each other somewhat. Just tolerationg each other because they are here out of thier homeland and they have to. To me this is very sad and it makes it hard to make friends. I hope it will change, Inhalla-Jeni

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 12:17pm
Thanks for your comments AliZaki as well.

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: aisha
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 10:58am

salaam jenni.i think you have just summed it up



-------------
aisha


Posted By: midway
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 11:41am

 

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

 

Dear Jenni,

 

I feel the same way about �keeping fit�, in the past all a person had to do was eat healthily & exercise�.. Now people are cheeking how many calories are in their food, how much fat saturates, how quick their heart is beating when they exercise, what exercises tone here, what exercises tone there!!! 

 

It seems this is just a product of modern society (science)!

 

 

Tut-tut, & cheeky-cheeky�.. Ummziba

 

 

�Men like to do things the hard way�

 

If I may politely remind you, that all the Prophets have been men, and why? Because they have been able to penetrate the very essence of existence, this requires the very deepest level of perception. Hence this is not about finding a quick short-term solution.

 

If you tell a child not to go near the fire, they may well heed the warning, but without understanding why! Hence at some point in the future they may (be tempted to) go into the fire, only then to find that it burns (& hurts) them.

      

 



Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 12:03pm

Assalamu alaikum Midway,

Originally posted by midway midway wrote:

Tut-tut, & cheeky-cheeky�.. Ummziba

�Men like to do things the hard way�

If I may politely remind you, that all the Prophets have been men, and why? Because they have been able to penetrate the very essence of existence, this requires the very deepest level of perception. Hence this is not about finding a quick short-term solution.

If you tell a child not to go near the fire, they may well heed the warning, but without understanding why! Hence at some point in the future they may (be tempted to) go into the fire, only then to find that it burns (& hurts) them.

      

Well, tut, tut, Midway.  May I politely ask you to go back and read all my posts in this thread, you will realize that I agree with you completely.  It was not a put down about men at all, just a way to point out the inherent differences between men and women.  Ooooppps, someone was being hasty!

I would also argue about why all the prophets were men (their knack for in-depth analysis had nothing to do with it), but that is a whole other topic!

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: midway
Date Posted: 18 June 2005 at 8:35am

 

Tut-tut�..

I have read all your posts in this thread, & would say exactly the same thing if I was able to go back in time�..

�I would also argue about why all the prophets were men (their knack for in-depth analysis had nothing to do with it), but that is a whole other topic!�

And you know that for a fact?

Sorry, it was wrong of me to say the word I have edited out.

  


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 18 June 2005 at 9:12am
Originally posted by midway midway wrote:

 

Tut-tut�..

I have read all your posts in this thread, & would say exactly the same thing if I was able to go back in time�..

�I would also argue about why all the prophets were men (their knack for in-depth analysis had nothing to do with it), but that is a whole other topic!�

And you know that for a fact?

Women!!!!!!!

  

What a pity - yet another misogynist.  And one of such little understanding.  Save your breath.  I won't be bothered replying to you anymore.  I'll leave you to the men you love so much better.

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: midway
Date Posted: 18 June 2005 at 1:20pm

 

Yes�.. I�m far from perfect, and I don�t mind admitting so

 

I have never been into hiding my imperfections, for I see that as real hypocrisy

 

If you see me as weak because I am honest, then so be it!

 

 

Gay! Yes I�ll be very gay to see all my brothers & sisters succeed!  

 

 

 



Posted By: midway
Date Posted: 18 June 2005 at 3:05pm

 

If I may please add�..

 

 

I was wrong in the way I approached (& hence the things I said to) Ummziba in this conversation, so here�s an official - I am sorry Ummziba. Words can be a bit shallow so, I�ll just get on with improving. Insha Allah

 

 



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 9:10pm

Bismillah,

Jenni, with the signature that you have, and the original post that you made here, I see that you are saying men should spend more time caring for their families because Allah, SWT, will give the most blessings for that.  (What does Pak mean, please?)

Maybe you have friends in situations where the husband ignores his familial duties for the luxury of spending countless hours with the brothers learning so many details that will get them into heaven while casually discarding the most obvious duties Allah, SWT, has assigned to him.  This issue slams me like a bad car accident, right to my heart.  Pray for us all to have kindness towards each other, ISA.



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 3:55pm
Peace Jenni. have you ever concidered to throw the source of all the comotion out the window? Im talking about hadith.

To me it was a simple, i must admit,  i realised that the Quran simply made a lot more sense in every aspect. Either the hadith badly parroted the Quran, or it gave advice that was absolutely useless (like covering water, like telling us how Mohammad(pbuh) urinated etc), and then theres all the occult esotheric knowledge to be found in it. all the copycating from the Bible etc..

Many confronted me with it. Well then we dont know how to pray?
Not only is that completely irrelevant, but its not true either. Were told to pray, so pray! Similarly Moses(pbuh) people where told to find a cow. That was all there is to it, but they insisted to annoy him with questions about it. what color does it have e.i...who cares? al they where told was to get a cow. how hard can it be!
But there is altso several verses that shows what should be uttered as part of it, and that prostraton is part of it. This is further detailed in several of all the prophets(pbut) examples (i can make a new thread on this subject alone if you like).

All the frustration (nearly) that you seem to utter. stems from teachings that makes no sense. why? because they make no sense thats why, and all the soothtalk in the world is not going to change that.

This represents my own interpretation of Quran, and my own standpoint. not the truth. that is reserved for Allah alone, and Allah knows best. may he guide us all to truth

Peace
Noah



Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 8:54pm
Noah, I agree with you. My husband and I approach Hadith with skeptisism since they are not protected by Allah. I think there is much corruption in them and wonder how people can take a hadith over the Quran. I think most of the Hadiths are of little value and many of them are strange and even perverted. I know many Muslims feel this way but will not say so in the open. The Quran is very Logical and Hadiths, well some of them just aren't. Peace

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: Mi4real
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 9:23am

As Salam Alukum

 

Its funny how some people feel this way by hadiths, you must realise that the hadiths came down the same medium, that is oral tradition backed by a chain of narrators, so if you are rejecting hadith why not reject the Qur`an?

Secondly hadiths were recorded Manuscripts of Abu Hurairaih's collection of ahadith exist in Samarkand, as do the earliest copies of the Quran. A lot of other Sahaba's hadith works are available in manuscripts. One only has to have the will to seek them out. If you reject hadith because you think they might have been invented, think the same for the Quran. How would you know that the Quran we have today is the same as the Quran of 1400 years ago?

One of the main problems is ordinarly layman like you and I open by Sahih Bukhari or other books of hadith and read it and formulate an opinion on it without understanding why this hadith was uttered, what were the circumstances? one has to remember these hadiths are orginally in Arabic you would get a better understanding if you read the Sharh (commentary on Bukhari's hadiths) from Ibn Hajar Asqalani's Fath Al-Bari.



Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 10:50am
Mi4real, you can not gaurantee the Hadiths are protected. There is one for example that says Eve was created from adams rib(like in the bible) and in the Quran that is not what is said. Also in the hadith there are many that are degrading to women, while I do not find this in the quran. There is one that says women are defiecient in intelligence while this is proven not to be true scientifically without a doubt. Now in many countries girls are outscoring boys in many fields like law, medicine ect. So explain that to me. Some hadiths are illogical while the Quran is not!!

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: Mi4real
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 11:21am

but then how can you guarantee that the Qur`an is protected since the Holy Qur`an is tawatur and so are some hadiths, if you reject hadiths then you must also reject the Qur`an secondly it is the IJMA (Concious of the Ulema (Scholars) that those who are hadith rejecters are automatically declared kafir, I would sincerely advise you to study the Sciences of Ilm Al-Rijal and Ilm Al-Hadith before you formulate your own opinions withour doing your research correctly.

but the Quraan orders us to follow the prophet, for example:
soorah Aal Imraan ayah 32
soorah Aal Imraan ayah 132
soorat un nisaa ayah 59
soorat ul maaidah ayah 92
soorat ul anfaal ayah 1
soorat ul anfaal ayah 20
soorat ul anfaal ayah 46
soorat un Noor ayah 54

Allah Ta'alaa tells the Rasool Sallallaahu `alyhi wa sallam to "warn those who appose your order" that they will fall into tribulation or great punishment {soorat un noor ayah 63}

������ ������ ������� �� ���� �� ������ ���� �� ������ ���� ����


Allah Ta'alaa orders the Rasool Sallallaahu `alyhi wa sallam to tell people "If you love Allah follow me Allah will love you" {soorah Aal `Imraan ayah 31}

�� �� ���� ����� ���� ��������� ������ ����


Allah Ta'ala says in the Quraan that you will be guided with the guidance of the Sahaabah { Soorat ul Baqarah ayah 137}
and that those who follow the Muhajireen and Ansaar with Ihsaan will be in heaven { Soorat ut Tawbah ayah 100}

Allah Ta'ala says ask the people of Knowledge if you don't know {soorat un nahl ayah 43, soorat ul Anbiyaa ayah 7}

Allah Ta'ala says that those who follow other than the way of the believers will go to hell {soorat un nisaa ayah 115}

The meaning of the words hadith and sunnah


Hadith (pl. Ahadith) = tiding, talk, discourse, tale, story (the word comes from haddatha = to tell)
Sunnah (pl. Sunan) = institution, customary action, wont


The above explanation should be enough, but i dont think that'll be enough for you guys.

The word hadith in the quran:
4:42
4:78
4:140
6:68
7:185
12:6
12:21
12:101
12:11
18:6
20:9
23:44
31:6
33:53
34:19
39:23
45:6
51:24
52:34
53:69
56:81
66:3
68:44
77:50
79:15
85:17
88:1


To show that there is nothing wrong with this word. I'll take some verses from the quran wich contains the word "hadith":

85:17.. Hal ataka hadeethu aljunoodi

85:17 Hath there come unto thee the story of the hosts

88:1. Hal ataka hadeethu alghashiyati

88:1. Hath there come unto thee tidings of the Overwhelming ?

20:9. Wahal ataka hadeethu moosa
 
20:9. Hath there come unto thee the story of Moses ?
I would strongly advise you read The authority of the sunnah:

( http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/ - http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/ )


Chapter 1: Sunnah: The Second Source of Islamic Law
http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/chap1.html - http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/art...hsun/chap1.html
Chapter 2: The Scope of the Prophetic Authority
http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/chap2.html - http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/art...hsun/chap2.html
Chapter 3: The Authenticity of the Sunnah: Its Historical Aspect
http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/chap3.html - http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/art...hsun/chap3.html

----------------

http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps1-3_e.html - Part A - Introduction
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps1-3_e.html#2 - Part B - The General Probativeness of the Sunna
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps1-3_e.html#3 - Part C - Proofs for the Probativeness of the Sunna
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps4-5_e.html - Part D - Allah's Approval of the Companions' Conformity with the Sunna
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps4-5_e.html#4 - Part E - Proofs from the Noble Qur'an For the Probativeness of the Sunna
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps6-8_e.html - Part F - Proofs from the Noble Qur'an For the Probativeness of the Sunna (cont.)
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps9-11_e.html#4b - Part G - Recapitulation: So far posted material
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps9-11_e.html#5 - Part H - Proofs from the Noble Sunna for the Probativeness of the Sunna
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps9-11_e.html#6 - Part I - Proofs from the Noble Sunna (cont.)
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps12-13_e.html - Part J - Proofs from the Noble Sunna (cont.)
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps12-13_e.html#7 - Part K - Proofs from the Noble Sunna (cont.)
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps14-15_e.html - Part L - Proofs from the Noble Sunna (end)
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ps16_e.html - Part M - It is Unfeasible to Act Solely on the Basis of the Qur'an


Information about the submitter-sect...

SUBMITTERS INTERNATIONAL
http://212.67.202.62/%7Esecurity/htspub/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=2 - http://212.67.202.62/%7Esecurity/ht...&id=34&Itemid= 2

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/submit_trick.htm - http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/c...ubmit_trick.htm

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/submit_refut.htm - http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/c...ubmit_refut.htm

http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Sects/Submitters/Refutation.htm - http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/E.../Refutation.htm

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/submit.htm - www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/submit.htm

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/#submitters - www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/#submitters

http://www.themodernreligion.com/anti_muslim_main.htm - www.themodernreligion.com/anti_muslim_main.htm

A refutation to the 'Submitters'
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/submit_refut.htm - http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/c...ubmit_refut.htm

Islam = Qur'an + Sunnah
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/quran_sunnah.htm - http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/c...uran_sunnah.htm

Answering Hadith Rejectors
http://www.themodernreligion.com/mi...hrejectors.html - http://www.themodernreligion.com/mi...hrejectors.html
 
Lastly the hadiths which you find disturbing try reading the commentary on the hadiths, have you tried reading the Arabic original? or how about asking a Scholar to explain the hadith to you?
 
The hadith system for Ahl-As-Sunnah has been relied upon for 1500 years, it is only now deviants groups are spreading fitnah and confusing the ordinary layman.
 
May Allah guide those who wish to misguide the masses.
 
 
Ameen Rabil Ala`meen.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:01pm
peace

Quote but then how can you guarantee that the Qur`an is protected


http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/56/81" title="Click to see all translations - 56:81 It is an honourable Quran.
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/56/82" title="Click to see all translations - 56:82 In a protected record.

You are free to belive what you want to, but i will just take Gods word for it. Im sure he knows what he is talking about.

Quote if you reject hadiths then you must also reject the Qur`an


this is reversed logic. I fully accept the Quran as the infallible word and guidence from God. I know, because this book is theonly thing in the world that makes me cry out of pure humility to sho is speaking through this mighty medium.
Hadith...well. gives me nothing but a headache, and from years of research into occultism, esoteric relegious philosphies i can spot paganism in any scripture a mile away.


Peace
Noah


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:09pm

Bismillah,

I agree with Noah and Jenni that the Qur'an is promised to be protected, and the hadeeth are not.  The Qur'an was memorized by a thousand people and recorded by mutual consensus in Othmaan's time because of a major battle in which many people who had memorized the Holy Qur'an were killed.  It was seen as expedient to have a consensual compilation among those who had it memorized.  This did not happen with hadith. 



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 1:29pm
MI4real-I am not saying that I don't believe any Hadith are true, I am saying if it has a condratictory nature to the Koran, how can you accept it? Which is more holy to you the Quran or Hadiths. The Quran is the word of God, the Hadiths rely on the heresay of men, which are not that relaible. I don't care which scolar says what. I do not have to accept the Hadiths as 100% true to be a Muslim. This is not one of the five pillars. You did not explain the discrepancy of the Hadiths I previously mentioned. I am asking you for a real explenation. 

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 4:14pm

My I chip in a little bit on this "off topic" gossip!

For Quran, no one needs to go any where for its authenticity. however, this is not true for Ahadith. Isn't it?

In the same token, if Quran is law, then authentic sunnah are the explanation of the law but not the vice versa. However, then sunnah play another vital role and that is the history associated with it. Usually people of other faith play down Quran as a book of faith, it is the well documented ahadith with their complete chain of narration, that provides un-deniable authenticity to the Quran and hence its preservation. Think a little bit more on this when you read about the process of preservation of Quran through the link provided below.

It is therefore imperative for all of us to recognise the importance of both of them at their own level.

One more thing that I may like to correct to someone who mentioned about writing down of Quran in the time of Hazrat Usman from oral traditon. This is not  true. The fact is that whole of the Quran, as it used to be revealed, was aptly written down by the specially appointed scribes of our beloved Prophet. At the same time, given the importance of sunnah, some people also started writting down the Ahadith along with the Quran, to which our Prohet strictly forbidden this practice for not confusing the two sources togather. Hence, kept a special care of writting down of the Quran. When the Quran was completely revealed, its proper order of sequence of verses relative to each other for compilation was also duly dictated by the Prophet. For complete and detailed information, kindly see

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_quran/index.htm - http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_qura n/index.htm

Indeed Allah knows the best.



Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 4:57pm
Quote For Quran, no one needs to go any where for its authenticity.


Thank you, this sentence really should be enough for anyone. However..

We should look at all scriptures and if they contain contradictions, does not make sense, they are not from God, as outlined in Quran.
The Quran is fur'qan, the criterion. Criterion for what? all things!

Quote however, this is not true for Ahadith. Isn't it?


Look, the Quran is from God. Truth does not need to be verifyed or explained by ignorance.

Quote In the same token, if Quran is law, then authentic sunnah are the explanation of the law but not the vice versa.


whoah, thats a major leap'o'faith right there. IF (assuming) the Quran is law. THEN (assuming) ..must be ... The Quran IS law, and it explains itself very, very well. This is why we are constantly reminded that it is easy to learn, that we should study it intesively, that it has ALL details, that it contains ALL examples. So if the Quran is not lying about these claims, wich I assume it isnt. then what the Quran states is truth, thus it IS easy to learn, and contain everything that i need to know for my personal salvasion, and the making of a society. its all in there.

Ofcourse its not visa versa. as i said. Truth needs not to be validated by lesser truths, lies, and outright ignorance.

Quote However, then sunnah play another vital role and that is the history associated with it.


how did you reason your way to this? I still fail to see why i should lsiten to hadith at all, now that the Quran makes it perfectly clear (by repeating) that it is for everybody, and that it is the only law and thats its easy to learn. There is even a verse that goes like this (easy to learn, cant remember its number tho ;))

"What is wrong with your judgement? Do you have another book you read?(another book than this Quran?*) Do you find in it everything you want?"

Quote Usually people of other faith play down Quran as a book of faith, it is the well documented ahadith with their complete chain of narration, that provides un-deniable authenticity to the Quran and hence its preservation.


God assure us that he will preserve it, and i have posted the verses (and numbered them wrong it seems) confirming this. I take Gods word for it, i dont need to trust imam bokhari, muslim or any other guy i dont know who are, whre, or how they acted. all i know is what they have told about themself, and people singing from the same sheet. and honestly...thats just not good enough. Not as divine proof of preservation.

Quote Think a little bit more on this when you read about the process of preservation of Quran through the link provided below.


I disgree with the author on several points of whatever little i did read of it. I have little patience with argueing from  hadith. There is no doubt that it has historical importance, and tell us a lot about what life was like FOURTEEN HUNDRED years ago, and how they implemented the Quran. How they dressed, how they urinated, how its healthy to drink camel piss when youre ill, how you should take slaves in war time, and how its ok to force them to prostitution of you just pay them a piece of cloth. And im sure it worked out fine back then (allthough i do NOT belive the prophet to have done or said any of the profanites, i simply respect him too much, and have higher thoughts of Allahs slave). But when i read the Quran, and i read it over and over, i simply cannot find any scriptural basis for the above hadiths, whatsoever. Thus, as relegious guidence, they are too flimsy, faulty and plainly ridiculous at places.

And no chain of narrators can change that. Logic alone should tell yo theres something wrong. Bukhari alone colleted roughly 700.000 only 10% of those made it to his books, and we are still argueing what are genuine, and most schoolars have easily tossed 40% in the trash allready. So ...if a scripture (a book in example, like a collection of something, say....storys) contains errors, contradictions and makes no  sense, they are not from God (i refer to the Quranic criterion for accepting a scripture as relegious guidence) it really IS that simple.

Quote It is therefore imperative for all of us to recognise the importance of both of them at their own level.

I completely agree
Quran = Gods word, Law, the critrion, the beacon of light, the sorter of historical and previous relegious errors, the mercy, the way etc.
Hadith = loosely collected telltales with some authentic historical value at places, perhaps narrated by the people who are claimed to have narrated them, who knows, really?.

Quote One more thing that I may like to correct to someone who mentioned about writing down of Quran in the time of Hazrat Usman from oral traditon. This is not  true. The fact is that whole of the Quran, as it used to be revealed, was aptly written down by the specially appointed scribes of our beloved Prophet. At the same time, given the importance of sunnah, some people also started writting down the Ahadith along with the Quran, to which our Prohet strictly forbidden this practice for not confusing the two sources togather. Hence, kept a special care of writting down of the Quran. When the Quran was completely revealed, its proper order of sequence of verses relative to each other for compilation was also duly dictated by the Prophet. For complete and detailed information, kindly see

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_quran/index.htm - http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_qura n/index.htm

Indeed Allah knows the best.


I have seen 4 and half billion different takes on how the Quran was assembled, written by scribes, written by mohammad (pbuh). To be perfectly  honest. i do not care a single bit if it fell of the moon and hit mohammad on the head. I have read it, i understand what it wants me to do, and i obey, no questions asked. Im not going to argue with God. (but i will take on the scholars, no prob, they arent infallible or God send. they are humans with the same capacity and senses as me)

May Allah show us all the way to truth, where ever or what ever it may be.

Peace
Noah



Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 6:00pm
I agree with Noah, I mean come on lets use commen sence. And no one has explained to me my previous discprepencies about Adam and Eve. In the Quran the explenation is different for how eve was created than in the Hadith. No one has ever given me an answer for this!!!

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 7:36pm

O my dear brother Noah, great respect for your ideas and comments about Quran, but one can't ignore the history of Islam, good or bad, both. This doesn't mean that you have to wear the monocle of hadith to read Quran or to understand its general meaning. However, there are still numerous topics that have been alluded in Quran and their full understanding (or you can say as how to implement) comes from authentic ahadith. Islam deals with complete system of human life, from its fromation of a society to its individual members. Hence, if Quran provides constitution for a society, then sunnah forms the guidelines to implement this constitution in the form of a law. And if Quran provides a law, then sunnah provides the guidelines as how to implement the law (I am using "if" as an anology for presenting the examples). In any case, its not the vice versa. Your respect for Quran is true at its own merit, however, authentic (I repeat authentic) sunnah must not be down graded as well from their own stature.

Now coming to historic value of Islamic manuscripts, have you ever realised how important these are? The website that I referred you, provides evidence of assurance (through human intellect) that the copy of Quran that we are holding now in our hands, is same ditto as was revealed on Prophet Mohammad. In the absence of which, how do you claim its preservation other than from Quran itself? Think for a while, hopefully, you will get the answer yourself. It is this promise of Allah, through which Quran has survived the tides of history, otherwise, for history there is no exception. 

May Allah give all of wisdom to use logic for all our matters. Amin.



Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 6:48am
Hello!!!!!!!!!! Eve in the Quran and Eve in the Hadith as I previously asked? Anyone want to take a stab at it or you guys are going to ignore it. The story is different how Eve(ADAMS wife) was created in the Quran and in Hadiths it gives the christian biblical version!!

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 7:40am
jenni try and read http://www.free-minds.org/books/journey.htm - this book online

Im sure it will answer you quetion

Peace
Noah


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 8:15am

Assalamu alaikum,

Just an interesting, though possibly relevent aside:

It is scientific fact that all human fetus' are female.  The mutant Y chromosome later starts a reaction that turns just under half of these into males.

It is females who grow and give birth to our young.

Why then would Allah make Eve from Adam, would this not be backwards?

Does the Qur'an not say that Allah made a female soul and it's mate from it?

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 3:42pm
Ummziba, I allways like your contributions. Peace

-------------
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 6:15pm

Originally posted by Noah Noah wrote:

jenni try and read http://www.free-minds.org/books/journey.htm - this book online

Im sure it will answer you quetion

Peace
Noah

Bro Noah, this book is lacking authenticity and doesn't represent a scholarly researched writting. Picking up Quranic verses from here and there to negate sunnah is not at all a wise approach. We all know it took Quran almost 23 years to reveal, without reading it in its proper historical context to falsify ahadith, is thus, a big falacy. Hence, it is the work of none other than people like Saint Apple Pie and company.

May Allah provide us true guidance in our endeavor for the right direction. Amin.



Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Originally posted by Noah Noah wrote:

jenni try and read http://www.free-minds.org/books/journey.htm - this book online

Im sure it will answer you quetion

Peace
Noah

Bro Noah, this book is lacking authenticity and doesn't represent a scholarly researched writting. Picking up Quranic verses from here and there to negate sunnah is not at all a wise approach. We all know it took Quran almost 23 years to reveal, without reading it in its proper historical context to falsify ahadith, is thus, a big falacy. Hence, it is the work of none other than people like Saint Apple Pie and company.

May Allah provide us true guidance in our endeavor for the right direction. Amin.



Peace brother

Authenticity? I disagree with the tone used in the article. there is no need to be that snide. But i agree with what it says a long way down the line. I take the Quran for what it is, and i trust the book, and thus God and his prophet, when the Quran states that it contains all examples, is easy to learn, is the criterion etc. To me it is clear as daylight that we where never intended to use anything but Quran as relegious guidence. And its hardly random quotes, i can make you a full list of all the  ayat where its made clear.  The way i see it the hadith keep the book in the context of 1400 years ago, where it really was meant to be for all times. It is meant for all people and cultures, yet people insist that we should wear the same clothes have the same beard etc. because of hadith. Many men cannot even have beards. To me this is cult syndrome. But to each their own. Im not God, im nobodys judge, all i can do is what God expects me to. Educate myself, use my reason, my sense, and verify all things before i accept them ,and listen to all being said, and follow the best.

a great Quran tool
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/

Peace
Noah


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 3:27am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

Please continue the discussion http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1650&PN=1&TPN=1 - here


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net