Assalaamu alaikum

My Iman (& Mehdi) is Sheikh Osama bin Laden. May Allah send His Mercy & Blessings upon him, and bestow him with a Most Gracious Victory.

�having said that I have never met him, nor anyone from his organisation, rather I support his aim for a Muslim state entirely free from capitalist depravity.

I deplore all military action, and would hope that in the dire circumstances when it is unavoidable, it should be performed without any joy whatsoever.          

To Midway,

I tried to ignore your post, but I can't. I am amazed that you feel this way about this terrorist criminal. Our Prophet (a.s.) is known to have avoided destruction of trees and plants in war (if possible), how can you support someone who targets innocent people (such as 100+ Muslims that were killed on 9/11) and encourages his followers to murder other Muslims (Shia). Please stop posting things like this. I am afraid that Non-Muslims will see this.

midway wrote:   Assalaamu alaikum My Iman (& Mehdi) is Sheikh Osama bin Laden. May Allah send His Mercy & Blessings upon him, and bestow him with a Most Gracious Victory.

My Dear Bro,

Ignorance is a big evil, however, declaring it openly is biggest of all. How did you come to know that he is "Mehdi"? And yes, since when he is "Sheikh"? 

It's just sad. If OBL wanted the lands to be free from the US grip, he didn't have to kill even an ant. He would have started a peaceful boycott of western products and the job would have been done in well under 9 months.

midway, dude you are they type of guy making the rest of these nice peaceful muslim people look like crazy nuts to many people in the world.  Im glad to see so many muslims jump his case but im afraid thats not enough.  I have contacted the US homeland security about this post and they are tracing the IP address as we speak.  You better go hide in a cave and get out of the UK. 

maybe you could make it easyer to find you, do you live in Leads ?

there is a bed at Guantanomo for this nut... if not they will make room!  Noah, how did you get out of having to go ??? the Nazi's accually let you go without harm... doesnt sound like any Nazi's i ever heard of.  Do they have ovens at Guatanomo that i dont know about ? are prisoners misteriously disapearing ? is there a dust cloud with a smoke stack someplace on the base ?

 By the way, why would you live in a country you hate ??? get out, go live in a cave... your exactly the type person the good muslims need to get out of there religion.

jibreel wrote: Assalamo Alaikum, You know the fact is that during the second world war, the U.S. claims no one knew about jews in ovens.

what can your point be here ??? the Nazi's obviously made it a secret but even if they new, they were fighting to free and save the people.  I dont see your point here, what i see is another borderline extremist.  are you trying to say the US killed the jews ??

�I have contacted the US homeland security about this post and they are tracing the IP address as we speak.  You better go hide in a cave and get out of the UK.� 

Gosh, I�m really scared!

Yes that�s (my parents house) -  67 Wensley Road, Leeds, LS7 2LS, West Yorkshire, U.K.

�By the way, why would you live in a country you hate ??? get out, go live in a cave... your exactly the type person the good muslims need to get out of there religion.�

Your oppressive attitude toward me has meant that I have never even been part of �your� community, by rejecting people without even discussing their ideology; you are creating the very people to which you then disagree.   

It is Allah�s predestined decree - where & when a person will die!

jibreel wrote: Peace Homeland or duetchland security, why did the U.S. decide to do what Nazi Germany did by giving people no voice to speak out against there policies after they paid there taxes?

I have no idea what your talking about, when did americans loose there freedom of speach again ?

jibreel wrote: Peace :), I am sure that Everyone is a border line extremist to you, No just people who compare Americans to Nazi's, obviously warped extremist thought process to come up with any such connection. how many americans can you call border line extremists for not agreeing with you then? Just because someone disagree with something doesnt make them extremists, only if they have radical "out there" way of thinking. Is it not extremist to have a intolerant attitude towards others who disagree with you? I have a very tolerant attitude to reasonable thinkers, just not people who come up with extremist statements. Obviously was no secret at all today that the U.S. public never knew what there government was up to, just like Vietnam.. but the officials did know and they where Hitler's number one supporters.. Prescot Bush the grandfather of this president even banked in on it. Prescott Bush served served as a field artillery captain with the American Expeditionary Forces (1917-1919) during World War I.  What US "officials" were Hitler's number one supporters ???  As i recall the US was the number one deciding factor for ending world war 2, on the Allies side, not the Axis (of evil). Sure the germans killed Jews, yeah right, who supported it though? I believe a accomplice is also guilty, it was obvious no gold was found in germany when Hitler went to the swiss banks with it, come on and give us a break here, i know many germans who say the U.S. knew and used HItler. Germans saying the US supported Hitler... ya ok Germans put him in power NOT the US.  Your accually under the impression the US helped Hitler kill Jews ??? see what i mean, thats an extremist view. Can you see it al clear enough yet or are you one of those people who actually can not tell that patriotism was allways formerly know as nazism and nationalism? You want to support a democracy over seas, that is called Nazism= national expansion. NAZISM---The ideology and practice of the Nazis, especially the policy of racist nationalism, national expansion, and state control of the economy.

Dude, your out there.... Nazism has nothing to do with democracy, are you really that screwed up in the head.  Nazi Germany  was a DICTATORSHIP not democratic whatsoever after Hitler was put in power he wasnt going to hold a re-election campain, are you nuts ?

My reply is in RED

Is the U.S. really a democracy today even at-least half as much as capitalists? Israel calls themselves one
Germany also calls themselves one, but are these countries really offering citizenships and equal rights? NOT

With Israel: you need to be Jewish to be a citizen, and the Rabies can refuse. With Germany: you need German Blood to be a citizen.

And when did we change over to talk about Israel and German Democracy's of current day ?  I thought you were talking about America's ?

Before we go into your dictonary for a definition of Democracy lets not forget that Americans CREATED Democracy, not Webster.

Democracy
1.     Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2.     A political or social unit that has such a government.

Yep, got that its called the Congress (House & Senate)

3.     The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.

There power is there VOTES which is the way it always has been.

4.     Majority rule.

Again, the canidate with the most votes wins, majority rule.

5.     The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

Thus, everyone gets the same voting power, same publicly paid school system, equality.  This was not in the origional democracy, but we evolved our Democracy to this structure.

Nope that is not what the world seems to think no matter how many americans try to bluff them with a phony image of democracy.

Ok, lets get something correct here, Americans dont need anyone else in other countries to tell us what our democracy is, WE CREATED THE GOVERNMENT SYSTEM, have you forgotten this ?

We told OTHER countries what democracy is, not other way around.

WIth the U.S. now has a president that said he is a WAR PRESIDENT,

Sure not the 1st one, you might remember a WAR president called George Washington, ever heard of him ?  He was the 1st president, being a "war" president is nothing new.  Maybe your eledging that the 1st Democracy on earth was always a "totalitarian" government,  Is this your argument ?

and backs a homeland security that was used in Nazi Germany.

Is that right, Nazi's had a department of homeland security ? I think not.

Bush also prefers been a dictator, as well as a speech about the new world order. Nazi     

What "speech" are you refering to ?  When did Bush anounce he "prefers" a dictatorship ??

1. A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, founded in Germany in 1919 and brought to power in 1933 under Adolf Hitler.

Prescott Bush was not a member of the Nazi Party, where are your "fact" ?  He was in a company UBC, which owned a portion of Consolidated Steel which was partially in Poland.  Uppon Hitler's takeover in Poland Hitler took the Polish parts of the Steel Company and its assets.  This was later investigated by US Government and he was not prosecuted.  Also he only owned a single share of UBC stock worth the equivilant of $750,000 dollars of todays money.  UBC owned 15 companies, Consolidated Steel was only 1.  Also note that many american companies were involved in Germany prior America's involvement in the war.  America and the rest of the world had no idea Hitler was so crazy, hindsight is much easier to see.  Also worth noting is Prescott Bush became the CHAIRMEN of the National War Fund which generated millions to help america fight Germany.

The so called National Socialist German Workers' Party turned out to be Nazis later, you do not think that its possible of the so called Democratic government to really be a masquerade to Invade other countries and use a tight security system with a to?tal?i?tar?i?an government, its happening and here.

See this is why your extreme, Bush has never declared himself a dictator nor did Bush start this War Against Terrorism, Bin Laden did.  America defended itself in removing the Taliban from power which were helping Al Queda and letting them teach terrorism in the country.  Bush isnt trying to take over the world, simply trying to make it a safer planet.  His methods are not all correct and I did not support the Invasion of Iraq, but do see how many would have.  The Senate gave the President the authority to go into Iraq, he did not do this without authorization.  The Senate and most of america was very fearful of Saddam and his intentions against his obvious enemy, America.  Again, looking back it is much easier to see the Iraq war was not the best thing to do in this war against terrorism. 

What is KEY for you to recognize is that America is not claiming these countries as its own as Nazi's did, it is holding elections and letting the people write there OWN constitution.  This is far from Imperialism which has never been known to do anything such as this.

If the U.S. was so perfect and free then why do so many people hate Bush, they bombed him with eggs in his first inauguration, the only president to of been so dissed ever., you know it and i know it that only rich people support his ideologies to protect there investments.

The "rich" people of the US are less than 2% of the population so to say they are the only Bush supporters is totaly incorrect.  As for so many people hating him, well his 1st election was the closest in US history so obviously the people who opposed him are going to be angry.  Close elections are not good for a country as it is much harder to see a clear victory.  I never said Bush was perfect, in fact i didnt vote for him either election, I voted for his opponents.

Why dont you get to know your criminal president before trying to run around on muslim websites with the idea that you can cover his trail up and make him smell like a rose., why not stop the paraqnoa desease about Islam that Germany had about Judaism when the whole mid west america suported Hitler.

Like i said, I didnt vote for him nor do i think he makes all correct decisions, but what your saying is totally radical here.  The whole midwest America supported Hitler, thats simply nuts.  Again, America FAUGHT AGAINST HITLER AND WON!!! we were not part of the Axis (of evil) but we were on the allies side.  Your twisted propoganda is what Im trying to eradicate, in not going around saying my government is perfect but you are surely saying there equal to Nazi Germany which makes me want to throw up.  That type of radical hatred spreading is exactly why so many Muslims think America is evil.  If you can draw your ties to Nazi's which are hated throughout the world then your spreading false hate for America based on lies. These kind of lies are making war worse, not closer to peace which america does desire.

Either-wise you should be helping those trying to impeach him for lying under Oath and more crimes he and Ariel Sharon are wanted for in other countries then Osama Ben Laden..

Great your another Bin Laden supporter, that explains everything.  Poor Bin Laden, having to live in caves... give me a break, if people like you would stop supporting his crazy thinking and kill him the world would be a much better place. 

When did Bush lie under Oath ???  is this another fabricated story ?

You have to be kidding to say that the U.S. is not a Nazi nation, the U.S.
government are the nazis on the rise again, and your saying exactly what
the Germans did when they did not know the nationalist Socialist party
where also Nazis in discise,

See, you need history lessons that arnt given to you by Bin Laden or his allies of lies.  Hitler gained his way to power by Hindenburg appointing him Chancellor, not by a democratic vote.  Hitler only had 38% in an election held in 1932.

Im a person who feels that under almost every condition the majority of the people are level headed, not extremists.  Even the majority of German people new better than elect Hitler to power.  This is where your logic is so far off base.  You really think Americans would elect someone like Hiter to run our country.  Your logic is deeply flawed, American HATE Hitler and would NEVER let anyone like him take control of our country.

What I have a hard time accepting is garbage propoganda people like you spread.  Do you know what an election is ???????????? that is the most central point in when a government is a Democracy or not and our election system is IN FULL WORKING ORDER!!!  How hard is it for you to soke this into your head ?

You cant accept these facts, that is why your an extremist.  Your arguments are based on propoganda and mine on factual information, thats the differance.  Anyone can make up stories.

Noah wrote: The progress you made after WWII mostly involved great scientists like Dr.Werner Von Braun. And all the other facsist, nazi murderers that came over there after the war, under diplomatic imunity. Those guys where animals, do you know what they did in germany? what the hell where you thinking guys?

Well, do you know that if those scientists were not admitted to the US they would have been admitted to someplace else, possibly Japan ?  It is true that many of them were part of the Nazi party but what you must realize is that we were still at war, and war is about technology, not who's side a single individual is on, its about the entire countries technology.  America was attacked by Japan, not the other way around.  If Japan had the nuklear scientiests of Germany do you think they would have used the bombs on the US ? of course they would have, they were the ones that wanted war to begin with, not only with us but ask the Chinese and Philopieno's what they think of Japan in WW2.  Its not a pretty thing but its what had to be done in order to advance American Technology faster than Japan could advance theres.  War is no good and no side is ever free of any bad deads, sometimes bad deads must be done in order to win the war.  Also, these scientiest's who were extremely advanced thinkers and well ahead of any others in there field in the world at the time were not allowed to bring the Nazi empire stratigy with them that is why America continued to try to find an END to the war, not to SPREAD IT as the Nazi's did.

Also look how properous Japan has been sense they made UNCONDITIONAL surrender to the USA.  We helped them advance and make there country as great as it is today.  In addition we helped Germany, Italy, and South Korea which are all very democratic countries in thanks to the US.

The big picture of Bush was ALTERED, the small one is him waving dummy, not making a Nazi Solute as much as you would like to think so.  America is all to familiar with the Nazi Solute and if the President was making that American's wouldnt stand for it!  He was re-elected and it wasnt for any Nazism you may think you see.

Furthermore, the site you referanced the picture have some really fasinating UFO pictures, have you seen any of those ships flying around ?

this one crashed in Russia http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/ufo_crash_russia.jpg">  ">

here is one, huh, it looks like an upside down skillet lid but there sure its a UFO

your site is CRAP buddy, get some real pictures.

Might I add, that America is not the country of Nazism, we are the country that ultimately STOPED Nazism from spreading into the entire world. 

What you have to credit America with is being the deciding factor in STOPING NAZI GERMANY not helping it spread.

If America was being over ran by Nazi's in the government trust me, Americans would GET THEM OUT !!  We are very familiar with what Nazi's can do. 

I suppose in your distorted radical sight you would claim that Blair is a Nazi as well ?

jibreel wrote: will you stoop this low to cover up facts here? is it worth it to put your happiness in there hands?

Is red text a sign of a communist ?  communists use the color, this is about as much "evidence" you need to buy into a conspiricy theory.

what "facts" are you refering to ?

Also the same figures where given in Nazi Germany for elections back then 51 to 49% support for some so called socialists party that was really the nazis later,   

Hitler got 38% in an election, not 49% or 51%

    
......Same with the CIA and Bush, these creeps cheated there way into office and lied,

Let me inform you of something, the CIA is an organization that doesnt have elected officials.  They dont take "office" are you stupid ?

promised a great new millennium and later admitted they panned to invaded iraq on no bases of evidence for WOMD., liars, you know that allready .

Accually, there was tons of evidence of WMD from throughtout the world and that is exactly what the President did base the war on.  Wether it was "good" evidence is another topic entirely.  The evidence wasnt lies they made up out of the air, it was evidence that much of the world believed including the UN which is why Iraq was under santions.  Is the UN Nazi liars as well in your twisted view ?

when Bush already admitted to of set out a totalitarian Government, not a democracy at all, only you think it is.

Another quote you cant come up with here i bet.  You sure do like to put words in peoples mouths alot for someone who does not give any solid sources for anything as of yet.

stop believing the media and the lies.

accually, the US media is held LIABLE for false information, sadly thats not the case for people who spread made up crap like you.

I am astonished that they accually didnt take you to Guantonimo Prison.  Where did they catch you ?  If they were "Nazi" they wouldnt be taking prisoners, they would simply kill you and the rest they captured or make you do work in the coal mines.  Im sure you wouldnt like to accept this fact of Nazi History would you.

I suppose in your distorted radical sight you would claim that Blair is a Nazi as well ?

can you answer this question for me ??

rocitreal, why do you not read my posts,
i never said the any person wanted Bush for president, or Hitler as a
leader, i said that these people are liars in the open and bullied there way into office, 

Nope, once again your twisted, Hitler did Bully his way to power WITHOUT election but Bush was elected, twice.

The corporate U.Ss supported Nazi Germany, a Cold financial machine

ever heard of the Trading With the Enemy Act ???

Once Hitler started the war, american companies which were involved in the german economy stoped financing him.  So your saying not only the Bush family, but all of the Ford Motor company and General Motor Company as well as hundreds of other US companies are accually Nazi's to ???

The Corporate U.S. was Hitler's number one supporters., Prescot Bush himself financed Hitler and the WTC.

Another crappy half witted claim.Prescott Bush didnt own UBC nor did he give Hitler any of his personal money nor was he in the Nazi party.  Your sources are about as corrupted and distorted as you are. Thyssen was Hitlers number 1 financial supporter and was a member of the Nazi party, yet Hitler took all he had from him once WW2 started.

your sources are crapy, is that really where you get your information at the same time you call real media liars ???

jibreel wrote: rocitreal, For one, You called me stupid? , you just proved that your intolerant here in these forums, you make the truth seem like it smacked you across your face silly

now your using my color, how are we going to tell the differance.  Once again you screw up in reading.  I ask you if you were stupid, i didnt "call you stupid". R E A D

Furthermore where who are these "millions" of other people i called stupid ???????????????? 

you like to write your own truth from words that dont exist.

you have completely disregarded our previous discussion.  Can you not come up with an intellegent argument for your views i disputed ?

jibreel wrote: No, its you that is the extremist here, only you keep looking for this in the people you hate. Its intolerant and against any forum rules, if you had anything to share in a discussion you would not of went this far, and now YOUR TRUE COLORS SHOW...

dont you mean the colors you paint ??????

tell you what, you quote for me where i called you and millions of people stupid and i will not post on this board any further.

otherwise quite making up words i didnt say

your impeachment website does NOT referance millions of americans who think Bush is a Nazi, sorry dude but your simply incorrect.  Just as you cant quote me as calling you stupid.  Looks like your the liar here.

scientists were not admitted to the US they would have been admitted to someplace else, possibly Japan ?

So what? They were war criminals. Nevermind who took them in as freinds.

It is true that many of them were part of the Nazi party but what you must realize is that we were still at war, and war is about technology, not who's side a single individual is on, its about the entire countries technology.

BS and you know it. Thise guys where nazi scientists. I have several books i can reccomend if you want to know excactly what guys like dr.werner von braun was into. You see over here in denmark (right next to germany) we are allowed to know the truth about what happened. You and i both know that they should have been put on trial for war crimes against humanity.

America was attacked by Japan, not the other way around.

Yes and your governemtn knew in advance. That hardly a secret by now. Its even in our history books in school. And no...denmark is NOT a muslim state, we are the one country who have been behind your pirate crusade, together with UK all the way. Still, we get to know the truth.

If Japan had the nuklear scientiests of Germany do you think they would have used the bombs on the US ?

We will never know, all we know is that they for sure never got a chance though.

of course they would have, they were the ones that wanted war to begin with, not only with us but ask the Chinese and Philopieno's what they think of Japan in WW2

You obviously dont know you ass from your elbow regarding history and WW2. Why was it that japan attacked in the first place? now go and do your homework.

a pretty thing but its what had to be done in order to advance American Technology faster than Japan could advance theres.  '

excuses. they are still nazi facsist murderers.

ood and no side is ever free of any bad deads, sometimes bad deads must be done in order to win the war.  Also, these scientiest's who were extremely advanced thinkers and well ahead of any others in there field in the world at the time were not allowed to bring the Nazi empire stratigy with them that is why America continued to try to find an END to the war, not to SPREAD IT as the Nazi's did.

You dont even really know what nazism is, its ideaology or how it operates, do you?

ok how properous Japan has been sense they made UNCONDITIONAL surrender to the USA.  We helped them advance and make there country as great as it is today.  In addition we helped Germany, Italy, and South Korea which are all very democratic countries in thanks to the US.

EVERYBODY INVOLVED WITH THE WAR HELPED BUILD UP THOSE NATIONS!.

The big picture of Bush was ALTERED

Ofcourse you can prove this. Because me, with 10+ years of photoshop experince simply cannot tell.

l one is him waving dummy, not making a Nazi Solute as much as you would like to think so.  America is all to familiar with the Nazi Solute and if the President was making that American's wouldnt stand for it!  He was re-elected and it wasnt for any Nazism you may think you see.

Oh, i see nazism allright. And not because of Bush gestures, that is just the bird in the tip of the iceberg.

Furthermore, the site you referanced the picture have some really fasinating UFO pictures, have you seen any of those ships flying around ?

Yeah well personally im rather sceptic about UFOs but i dont tell people what they should belive in. thats their problem. If disagreement on a single subject completely discredit the media that said it. You couldnt never watch new, tv, or press in general at all.

our site is CRAP buddy, get some real pictures.

No its a good collection of images. There arent the full explanation on any of the images they present, but thats why we all have to do our own homework. Im willing to find 1000 facsis for you from different non UFO wielding pages. But you still have no exsplanation as to why you have the FACSI in your congress! actually you have 2.''

Peace

Noah

http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/bushcrimefamily.htm - http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/bushcrimefamily.htm

Peace

Noah

I will read and research any solid information you can dig up saying Bush is a Nazi, but what i have heard so far is just dangerous rhitoric. 

Let me ask you this, do you think the Pope is a Nazi ????  your Bush info is much more distant than the Pope's yet i dont hear anyone calling the Pope a Nazi.

rocitreal wrote: scientists were not admitted to the US they would have been admitted to someplace else, possibly Japan ?

noah wrote: So what? They were war criminals. Nevermind who took them in as freinds.

they were not soldiers, they were scientists working under Hitler's demands.  The ones who would not work for Hitler were killed, inprisoned, or escaped.  America didnt take them in as friends, they took them in because they surendered to them.  Many were very intellegent people and america needed there smarts, plain and simple.  I do agree that many of them should have been taken to trial but with there help we ended ww2.

rocitreal wrote: It is true that many of them were part of the Nazi party but what you must realize is that we were still at war, and war is about technology, not who's side a single individual is on, its about the entire countries technology.

noah wrote: BS and you know it. Thise guys where nazi scientists. I have several books i can reccomend if you want to know excactly what guys like dr.werner von braun was into. You see over here in denmark (right next to germany) we are allowed to know the truth about what happened. You and i both know that they should have been put on trial for war crimes against humanity.

As if in America we are restricted in information by our government. dr.werner von braun was a genius who was involved in germany as a rocket scientist long before Hitler gained power.  He wasnt developing his rockets for the use of weapons, he was much more intreasted in launching them into space.  He didnt "murder" anyone, he made rockets which Hitler took and used as weapons.  I suppose Einstein should be called a murderer for his scientific advancements ?

rocitreal wrote:  America was attacked by Japan, not the other way around.

noah wrote: Yes and your governemtn knew in advance. That hardly a secret by now. Its even in our history books in school. And no...denmark is NOT a muslim state, we are the one country who have been behind your pirate crusade, together with UK all the way. Still, we get to know the truth.

O, ok so your saying the US Government ask the Japanise to attack.  There were signs of there attack that could have been seen sooner, yes.   Does that mean we ask for it ??? of course not.  Just because they new a short time before hand wouldnt have changed the fact the attack that was coming.

rocitreal wrote:  If Japan had the nuklear scientiests of Germany do you think they would have used the bombs on the US ?

noah wrote: We will never know, all we know is that they for sure never got a chance though.

thank God.  They were not looking to end the war they started.

rocitreal wrote: of course they would have, they were the ones that wanted war to begin with, not only with us but ask the Chinese and Philopieno's what they think of Japan in WW2

noah wrote: You obviously dont know you ass from your elbow regarding history and WW2. Why was it that japan attacked in the first place? now go and do your homework.

Japan turning into a military state, exiting the League of Nations, and beginning its seige of China's coastline and cities.

noah wrote: a pretty thing but its what had to be done in order to advance American Technology faster than Japan could advance theres.  '

noah wrote: excuses. they are still nazi facsist murderers.

They were not personally murdering people, they were scientists not soldiers.  personally, im glad that the US did what it had to do in order to advance our technology and end the war.

rocitreal wrote: in war no side is ever free of any bad deads, sometimes bad deads must be done in order to win the war.  Also, these scientiest's who were extremely advanced thinkers and well ahead of any others in there field in the world at the time were not allowed to bring the Nazi empire stratigy with them that is why America continued to try to find an END to the war, not to SPREAD IT as the Nazi's did.

noah wrote: You dont even really know what nazism is, its ideaology or how it operates, do you?

the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the f�hrer.

Nothing like the current Government in the US might I add.

rocitreal wrote: ok how properous Japan has been sense they made UNCONDITIONAL surrender to the USA.  We helped them advance and make there country as great as it is today.  In addition we helped Germany, Italy, and South Korea which are all very democratic countries in thanks to the US.

noah wrote: EVERYBODY INVOLVED WITH THE WAR HELPED BUILD UP THOSE NATIONS!.

The Marshell Plan allocating billions of US dollars to reconstruction was the biggest funding source.  Notice these countries adopted Democratic governments modeled primarily from the US democracy.

rocitreal wrote: The big picture of Bush was ALTERED

noah wrote: Ofcourse you can prove this. Because me, with 10+ years of photoshop experince simply cannot tell.

can you tell me where the picture was taken ? who took the picture or even who published it ?  how bout where they found the picture ? furthermore, this site has lots of  UFO pictures of skillet lids and such floating in air, this isnt something that has to be proven false UFO's, rather the skillet lids and such need to be proven to be UFO's, just as this Bush picture.  show me any information on the pictures origion and then we can talk about its authinticity

The site you linked it from is full of garbage, all it takes is a 10 second look to see that.

rocitreal wrote: the bottom picture is him waving not making a Nazi Solute as much as you would like to think so.  America is all to familiar with the Nazi Solute and if the President was making that American's wouldnt stand for it!  He was re-elected and it wasnt for any Nazism you may think you see.

noah wrote: Oh, i see nazism allright. And not because of Bush gestures, that is just the bird in the tip of the iceberg.

Go ahead and write your own iceberg story if you like, that seems common these days.  I would enjoy discussing your information if you have anything solid to support your claim besides some inheritance money from 2 generations back having loose nazi links.

noah wrote: Yeah well personally im rather sceptic about UFOs but i dont tell people what they should belive in. thats their problem. If disagreement on a single subject completely discredit the media that said it. You couldnt never watch new, tv, or press in general at all.

ok, so everyone in media is trying to fool you.  I think not, you go ahead and look at your pictures of skillet lids all you want.

rocitreal wrote: your site is CRAP buddy, get some real pictures.

noah wrote: No its a good collection of images. There arent the full explanation on any of the images they present, but thats why we all have to do our own homework. Im willing to find 1000 facsis for you from different non UFO wielding pages. But you still have no exsplanation as to why you have the FACSI in your congress! actually you have 2.''

accually they give "insight" and "explainations" for many of the pictures.  Its far from a "collection of images".

jibreel wrote: Noah , your dealing with the EXTREMIST here, even Osama Ben Laden has seemed to be more calm then this character who likes to insult anyone who does not agree with him., and by the way, what is Osama wanted for?

Bin Laden simpathizer indead you are.  Im sure Americans are the extremists in Bin Laden's eyes, yet he is the one planning attacks wholly based on killing innocent people of all religions.  Thats the problem you have, you are not a rational thinker, you write your own words inbetween the lines you read.

jibreel wrote: And why would rocitreal go as far as he does advocating like a extremist here for Bush, think about it, why is he SO SCARED AND PARANOID but can not connect that only these types of Cowards are extremist themselves, like the nazis for example?

You brung up Bush, not me, I dont like lies about anyone, expecially the president of my country.  Like i said before, I didnt vote for Bush but he is the leader of my great country and I will not stand asside while people like you make up terrible lies to spread.

Your really nutty man, ill give you that much. Noah has some logical thought going into his arguement but you just dont make any sence whatsoever, your in your own world.

jibreel wrote: HAVE YOU NOT NOTICED WHY HE CAME TO A ISLAMIC FORUM rather then going to a Noam Chomsky  or alex Jones forum to debate about theories against the facts? pretty racist ideas about islam and muslims say.

I have no racist ideas.  I came to this board and other Islamic boards because i feel it very important that someone speak up for the truth and not let people like you make up lies to spread hatred and justification for terrorist attacks against my friends and fellow countrymen just trying to do there jobs.  Besides that, i enjoy talking with many muslims as they are generally very good people with level headed thinking, then there are the closed minded who justify there horrible mental hatred with lies and spread like the plague, sadly, you seem to be of this group jibreel.

Why are you posting on the board ? to spread your phony lies.

the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the f�hrer. Nothing like the current Government in the US might I add.

Or in other words

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Check!
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
Check!
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
Check!
4.) Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
Check!
5.) Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
Check!
6.) Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
Check!
7.) Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses
Check!
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
Check!
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
Check!
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
Check!
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
Check!
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
Check!
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
Check!
14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Check!

As for the rest. im not really impressed. bu  guess that wasnt the point either.

Peace
Noah

so the Pope is the devil and Bush is Hitler.  You sure do know how to make some bold accusations with no factual basis whatso ever.

My government is no differant than it was in the past, the people still control who is elected, the media still covers very important issues without government censorship.  My fellow military men and women are not the SS.  My government does not control all industry and we do not look at Bush as our Fuhrer.

your twisting facts to suit your own wishes.  I suppose you would want my country to be a bunch of Nazis, not going to happen.

a Fascist country and a Nazi country are not the same first of all.  Secondly

BOTH REQUIRE A DICTATOR.

do you know what a dictator is ???

they cant be elected officials as USA officials are.  Furthermore there is a Congress with hundreds of people in full control of there constitutional rights as representatives.

The USA Government is fail safe against letting a dictator control the country.  You dont know much about what Democracy is or where it comes from do you ?

My government is no differant than it was in the past, the people still control who is elected,

the media still covers very important issues without government censorship.

My fellow military men and women are not the SS.

My government does not control all industry and we do not look at Bush as our Fuhrer.

BOTH REQUIRE A DICTATOR. do you know what a dictator is ??? they cant be elected officials as USA officials are.  Furthermore there is a Congress with hundreds of people in full control of there constitutional rights as representatives. The USA Government is fail safe against letting a dictator control the country.  You dont know much about what Democracy is or where it comes from do you ?

Living in one of the worlds oldest democracy's im well aware of what it is and its story and implications, thank you :)

Es_Selam'un Aleykum

Islamicity in the hope of catching Osama Bin Ladin and Sterilizing Him Center suggests you to watching that video including an interview with Sheikh Hamza Yusuf....

Islamicity In The Hope of Catching Osama Bin Ladin and Strelizing Him Center(IITHOCOBLASHC),putting your safety first since 2003.

  http://linktv.org/pages/selectorPop.php4?caller=http://www.archive.org/download&prefix=WSFI20050208&name=WSFI20050208&filetype=mov&description=WSFI20050208 - http://linktv.org/pages/selectorPop.php4?caller=http://www.a rchive.org/download&prefix=WSFI20050208&name=WSFI200 50208&filetype=mov&description=WSFI20050208

Noah, i think its clear to any level headed thinker exactly who the enemies of the entire world is.  Its the terrorist organizations.

If they had the power that the US government has the world would be in total Chaos.  I live in the birthplace of democracy and the people of this country stand by there powers provided to them by our groundbreaking constitution which has changed the face of the world for the best giving the people election powers and term limits over leaders.

If you would like to believe that the US military is over ran by SS officers, the Pope is the devil "reincarnated" and Bush is Hitler in descise that is your right to think what you wish.  Please dont spread this nonsense though, there are many people who take this kind of information and go join up in these terror organizations based on lies being spread.

Its clear who the real enemy is, that Bin Laden and his evil propaganda being spread to corrupt the minds of many.  Its rhitoric like what you are spreading which helps extremists convince themselves blowing up to kill innocent people is a good thing.  This needs to stop, 

Bin Laden is the enemy of ALL that is good, not America.  The US has advanced civilization, not been trying to set it back a thousand years.

Suleyman, i couldnt agree more, Bin Laden and his movement must be contained and controlled before they ruin the advancement of civilization.

Assalaamu alaikum

I am sick & tired - After 18 + months of my inviting someone from the Muslim community to come and discuss with me in person, the scientific evidence I have discovered (ie the combination of the energy forces with gravity [general relativity]), which illustrates that there is only One Ilah � Allah, only to be completely ignored by your leaders!

I am now in no doubt that all the current leaders of so-called Islamic countries are corrupt, hence the Islam that is been taught (as a result of those leaders been in the position to propagate their doctrine), is naught but a plot. A plot the leaders have designed with the sole intention of protecting and enhancing their own position of power and greed.

I lost faith in the leaders of this country (I live in) a long time ago, the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and all the innocent people they have killed - sickens me, especially when the life of a Brit is somehow more important than that of an Iraqi! I am also very dismayed by the actions of Muslim leaders, I have lost faith in the Muslim community, whom propagate their corrupt leaders ideology for them.

Hence I wish to be arrested�.. So, yes, if I had the opportunity, I would partake in a suicide bombing, although I would not wish to harm any innocent people, rather I would attack either the army, or the politicians responsible.

So - Come and get me!        

Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

Unfortunately they are not going to get rid of me that easily!

I hear they want to understand the mind of a suicide bomber, is this not a lesson to show it is a result of oppression?

Unfortunately they are not going to get rid of me that easily!

Amir wrote: So - Come and get me!

sad that you want to kill yourself most of all it seems.... do you not charish this life given to you as the grandest gift imaginable?

Noah wrote: Bush is not hitler, he does not have the format hitler had at all.

nope, he sure isnt and nope he sure doesnt, thank you very much.

Noah wrote: They share several idealogies though.

this is the danger zone.  You make these blanket statements that have not grounds to fall back on. 

Noah wrote: As for the pope, hey i was told by christian freinds. They argued from the Bible that the vatican was the whore of Babylon, and whatever pope takes seat, well...you figure that one out. I was intriqued by their claims and started my own research. And they are right. From the Bible, there is no doubt that the vatican is the whore of Babylon.

i dont know any christians who call the pope the devil "reincarnated" as you have.  Sure, many christians dont think catholism is correct, but thats a far cry from calling the pope satan.  You seem to take very loosely connected facts and tie them together with your own knot.

Noah wrote: yes its true, the vatican made contracts with the nazis.

Italy was a part of the Axis (of evil) in ww2 so this is not hard to believe, they were a facsist regime.  I dont see how this ties into the Pope being the devil "reincarnated" as you stated you believe to be a fact.

rocitreal wrote: Please dont spread this nonsense though, there are many people who take this kind of information and go join up in these terror organizations based on lies being spread.

noah wrote: I have not presented a single claim i cannot back up with facts! And no...information is not what makes people join terrorist organisations. A miserable life, and no future is.

I do feel that hatefull rhetoric is harmful to society as a whole and do feel it can have profound effects on young people in particular who are apt to believe nonscense as a basis for commiting evil acts. How is it that the terrist organizations have been recruiting thoughout history ??? by pushing hateful false rhetorical statements.

rocitreal wrote: Its clear who the real enemy is, that Bin Laden and his evil propaganda being spread to corrupt the minds of many.

noah wrote: He is one of many enemies of the free world, you own leaders are aswell, i wish you could see this, freind.

is this a new thing for you to believe or has American Government always been an enemy of the free world ??? it would appear to me that American Government has had a very possitive effect on the free world and advancement of civilzation as we know it.  Are you under the impression that America's government has always been run by Nazi's ? 

these "facts" showing Bush to be a Nazi i have yet to see, where are they ?  No, i dont need to see some doctered picture from a UFO website or some article from a sorce undisclosed or from an extremist author.  I want solid evidence to support your claim.

by the way, a single election for a King to a life term is far from democracy as we know it today.  term limits, elections every 4 years for all of Congress and presidents and the Bill of rights were the biggest ground breaking part of the US democracy which changed the face of the planet, even if you do overlook this fact.

jibreel wrote: yes its nazi of you.

quite throwing such a brutal word around, expecally if your directing that towards me, thats a million times worse than calling someone stupid.  Just look how bent out of shape you got when i ask you if you were stupid.

I AM NO NAZI.  this is for certian.

nope, he sure isnt and nope he sure doesnt, thank you very much.

this is the danger zone.  You make these blanket statements that have not grounds to fall back on.

No that is only what you want to belive.

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

i dont know any christians who call the pope the devil "reincarnated" as you have.  Sure, many christians dont think catholism is correct, but thats a far cry from calling the pope satan.  You seem to take very loosely connected facts and tie them together with your own knot.

So you have read Phelps book...oh you havent, so youre just guessing again. :) thats allright, i had these in my link collection from my calvinist freinds.

http://www.vaticanassassins.org/ <-this is but a good place to start. And before you go into the old tired, no evidence, flimsy source rethoric. atleast look into who phelps is, and what he is writing.

Italy was a part of the Axis (of evil) in ww2 so this is not hard to believe, they were a facsist regime.  I dont see how this ties into the Pope being the devil "reincarnated" as you stated you believe to be a fact.

Yes they where a facsist regime. Do you remember the symbol that i showed you? the facsi? that is altso present in your congress? Italy used that during WWII aswell. As for the pope. by all means, do not take my word for it, take the christians, they are the ones worried about it.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/hanegraaffsays.htm
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/lee1.html
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=antichrist_in tro

I do feel that hatefull rhetoric is harmful to society as a whole and do feel it can have profound effects on young people in particular who are apt to believe nonscense as a basis for commiting evil acts.

you still havent managed in a single place to show where im hatefull, or that my information is not valid. The only thing that has failed you to verify it on your own, is that you dont want to. you dont want to know. 

How is it that the terrist organizations have been recruiting thoughout history ??? by pushing hateful false rhetorical statements.

Ohhh....stuff like

America is the land of the second chance - and when the gates of the prison open, the path ahead should lead to a better life.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgewbu153051.html - George W. Bush

says the man who had 152 people executed as govenor http://www.bushkills.com/

So lets take this into a little more detail..

8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined Do I think faith will be an important part of being a good president? Yes, I do. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgewbu145055.html - George W. Bush

and the stupidity from this man just continues ad neaseum, and if a take cheney and the wolf into it, the image gets really scary.

So where is the hate that impromoting? i have still shown you nothing but fully confimable facts.

is this a new thing for you to believe or has American Government always been an enemy of the free world ??? it would appear to me that American Government has had a very possitive effect on the free world and advancement of civilzation as we know it.  Are you under the impression that America's government has always been run by Nazi's ?

these "facts" showing Bush to be a Nazi i have yet to see, where are they ?  No, i dont need to see some doctered picture from a UFO website or some article from a sorce undisclosed or from an extremist author.

so that rules out fox news....well. you are free to belive theimage is doctored although it isnt. You are altso free to belive anything you want to, and im getting the impression that is excactly what you are doing.  

I want solid evidence to support your claim.

Look at the 14 points of knowing you facist state. are there anything you are in doubt off? Is Bush the leader? is the then responsible for whatever politics is being run? if so. how can you have coorporate facsism if the leaders is NOT a facist and in full support of it? I want to know what you will take as evidence, but obviously Bush's bitch fox news, would never bad mouth das fuhrer, so it has to be something else than that.

by the way, a single election for a King to a life term is far from democracy as we know it today.  term limits, elections every 4 years for all of Congress and presidents and the Bill of rights were the biggest ground breaking part of the US democracy which changed the face of the planet, even if you do overlook this fact.

Boooring. we had ours since 1400's The king was not overthrown, but we didnt need to . he handed the PEOPLE his power in turn for previliges to his family. the people agreed, and chose a state leader. Denmark still has a Queen, and we like her. its good for business having a 1000 year old history of royaltry. we are in fact. the world oldest exsisting monarchy aswell :D

I know that you really, really want to belive that the constitution and bill of rights are magic documents that changed the whole world. Not so. I well aware that YOU dont know that. the rest of us however...you know, that land mass outside USA, called the rest of the world...we know.

Peace
Noah

your 14 points missed the biggy.  Dictatorship... I suppose you dont like this most important part to your checklist because you cant write a pretty read check by it.

who wrote the checklist ?  I suppose you dont understand the differances between a Dictatorship, Democracy, and Monarchy.

Democracy as we know it today is much more than a simple election.

Just cause a "Christian" sais the Pope is the devil reincarnated you adopt it as your own belief ?

rocitreal wrote: your 14 points missed the biggy.  Dictatorship... I suppose you dont like this most important part to your checklist because you cant write a pretty read check by it.

No fascism is NOT automatically equal to a dictatorship. I dont know why you keep hanging youself in this issue because it is not correct.

who wrote the checklist ?  I suppose you dont understand the differances between a Dictatorship, Democracy, and Monarchy.

yes i do, and very well at that. And all of them can be fascist.

Democracy as we know it today is much more than a simple election.

im well aware what a democracy is. Dont assume anything about me, because you dont know.

Just cause a "Christian" sais the Pope is the devil reincarnated you adopt it as your own belief ?

No "a Christian" several of them. But ofcourse you didnt go and do any homework as i told you, so you wouldnt know. You dont even know the reasons given for him being the babylonian harlot of the Bible do you? READ! and then talk. As for my personal beliefs. I dont follow the Bible, so its none of my concern. Its interresting nevertheless that it was predicted so well in the Bible, and with such detail.

Peace
Noah

The sadness is that even if you shout at the top of your voice your cops n robbers theme doesn't wash. If you were a serious poster (which you have thus far failed to establish) you would look into your own nation's role in creating these "criminals".

Plus, if you were not American you would have an open mind to examine why almost 80% of the Muslim population says exactly what this poor chap from the UK has said.

People do not seem to connect with your admin and forces:

But the one sure thing is that if Bin Laden were captured in Pakistan, it would be a major political trauma for Musharraf. Because of the Iraq war, Bin Laden has acquired a poke-them-in-the-eye, Robin Hood legitimacy across the Islamic world, even among moderate Muslims. One recent opinion poll, for example, found that Bin Laden had 63% support in Pakistan, compared with just 9% for George Bush. Musharraf knows this, but insists he will not shirk from the task. Still, that broad well of support may be a key hurdle in the faltering manhunt.

On a scorching afternoon, Mukthiar Gul, a 32-year-old unemployed man, is swigging water outside the house where Abu Faraj al-Libbi was caught. If he had known who Al-Libbi was, he would have happily helped him escape, he says. "He was doing a service for Islam - Jihad," he explains, his friends nodding in agreement.

And if it were Osama, would he do the same?

Gul smiles. "Of course, yes."

Hello & Salam:

Here is a flash presentation on the structural and institutional causes of war, based on the work of the sociologist C. Wright Mills (1916-1962). Very relevant to understanding the world scene and the International system today

http://war.asadi.org/ - http://war.asadi.org

found that Bin Laden had 63% support in Pakistan, compared with just 9% for George Bush. Musharraf knows this, but insists he will not shirk from the task.

Its a sad statement that 63% of the population supports a murder, a conspirator, and a fake Islamic scholar. Is the Ummah that desperate for a hero?

Extremely interesting question indeed at the academic level. BUT that's the REALITY on the ground. Why hasn't the largest, the most powerful and the GREATEST empire on our earth been able to bag their enemy number ONE him in FOUR years.

I leave it to your Americanism to solve that riddle.

Its a sad statement that 63% of the population supports a murder, a conspirator, and a fake Islamic scholar. Is the Ummah that desperate for a hero?

My friend, that's your perception. Just come and ask an Afghan in any village or folks anywhere. Whatever, people prefer him a thousand times over the Neo Con gang.

"Whatever, people prefer him"
Sorry, I was wrong - people have come to prefer even the devil a hundred thousand times more than the Neo Con gang. Come, face the world and feel the heat.

Come and nuke our kids any time. We are prepared. It won't be worse than what it is now.

none of my people would be in your people's neck of the woods were such a statement not true however.

Show us the invitation my people sent you? Please also mail the invitation you had from Vietnam. And, don't forget the one from Mogadishu.

The sad fact is that your Vietnam nasties didn't disturb your Oil supplies. Your Muslim world nasties will end up differently. Just watch out for 2011 and 2012.

It's quite okay to be a liar, but shameless liars have a pathology problem. You could no doubt make a Republican polutician. Yes, I spelt it p o l u t i c i a n.

Is extremism ever justified

Ask your party. they are the biggest extremism terrorism promotors in the world. In factthey franchise it. It's amazing to see how many useless words you use when you have nothing to say at all.

The more I know you the sadder I feel for you and for your country.

maybe you would like to enlighten us as to where the phenomena of extremism comes from?
Did you really think that this one will ever answer such a serious question? He will run into all sorts of side alleys and shout at you, hurl abuse and vent his frustration at the new world disorder.

Whisper: check out the House of Windsor�s coat of arms,

Brother, not just that, just enjoy Who Are NeoCons?

Neoconservatism is the intellectual offspring of Leo Strauss (1899 � 1973), a Jewish scholar who fled Hitler�s Germany and taught �Political Science� at the University of Chicago. According to Shadia Drury in Leo Strauss and the American Right, Strauss advocated an essentially Machiavellian approach to governance.

He believed that:

�         A leader must perpetually deceive those being ruled.

�         Those who lead are accountable to no overarching system of morals, only to the right of the superior to rule the inferior.

�         Religion is the force that binds society together, and is therefore the tool by which the ruler can manipulate the masses (any religion will do).

�         Secularism in society is to be suppressed, because it leads to critical thinking and dissent.

�         A political system can be stable only if it is united against an external threat, and that if no real threat exists, one should be manufactured.

Drury writes that �In Strauss�s view, the trouble with liberal society is that it dispenses with noble lie and pious fraud. It tries to found society on secular rational foundations.�

Paul Wolfowitz was among Strauss�s students. He was one of the leading vultures (Hawk is too noble a bird and should not be associated with their ilk) in the US defence department who urged the invasion of Iraq. We could count Richard Perl, our Zalmay Khalilzad, the Vice President, John Ashcroft, Michael Ledeen and almost the entire Washington Gang.

Michael Ledeen, a fellow at the infamous American Enterprise Institute authored �Machiavelli on Modern Leadership: Why Machiavelli�s Iron Rules are as Timely and Important Today as Five Centuries Ago (1999), is a policy advisor (via Karl Rove) to the Bush admin. His fascination with Machiavelli seems to be deep and abiding, and appears to be shared by his fellow NeoCons.

�In order to achieve the most noble accomplishments,� writes Ledeen, �the leader may have to enter into evil.� This is the chilling insight that has made Machiavelli so feared, admired, and challenging. It is why we are drawn to him still . . . �

Maciavelli�s books, The Prince and The Discourses were like �how to amass political power� type of the self-help guides. They have �inspired� kings and tyrants, of course, including Mussolini, Hitler, Lenin and Stalin!!

The leader, according to Machiavelli, must pretend to do good even as he is actually doing the opposite. �Everybody sees what you appear to be, few feel what you are, and those few will not dare to oppose themselves to the many- who have the majest of the state to defend them . . . . let a prince therefore aim at conquering and maintaining the state, and the means will always be judged honourable and praised by everyone, for the vulgar is always taken by appearances . . . !!!

We owe the dictum �the end justifies the means� to Machiavelli.