"O people! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the best in conduct�" (49:13)

 Imam Ja�far al‑Sadiq (a) reported from the Prophet (s) who said: "Whoso­ever possesses in his heart 'asabiyyah (prejudice in any of its forms) even to the extent of a mustard seed, God will raise him on the Day of Resurrection with the (pagan) Bedouins of the Jahiliyyah (the pre‑Islamic era).�

[Al‑Kulayni, al‑Kafi, vol. 2, bab al �asabiyah, p. 308, hadith # 3]

I have seen posts on this forum lately such as;

- "are you scared that people would call you a lunatic?" (personal attack, name calling)

- " We ahlul-sunnah believe that all sahaba remained faithful unlike your cult who believes that all sahaba(99%) became renegades..." (typical school-yard name calling)

- " Look at this guy acting so smart and piouse. Come out of the darkness man..." (personal attack, insulting)

- " Even Ahmadi cult use our hadith the same way shia do." (prejudical, name calling (from someone who is not Ahmadi, and vehmently disagrees with them as well)).

All these posts have taken place within a 48 hr. time period. With mudslinging like this coming so fast and furtious, one can only imagine what future posts will bring.

This is even more suprising, as these inflammatory comments have been directed at posting which reflect the views of MAIN STREAM, 12er Shiism (or the Ja'fari Mathhab, if you prefer), which is accepted as a fifth Mathab by the vast majority of Sunni's worldwide (and the Grand Mufti of Al-Azhar University).

I am quite sure of the non-mainstream school of thought to which these comments belong, however, I will put this aside for now. I do request, however, that other members of this forum would also express their opinions regarding such behavior. In addition, I would request that the administrators of this site take a look at where these comments are coming from, and decide if this is the type of discussion that is encouraged in this forum.

REGARDING OBEDIENCE TO THE AHL'AL BAYT.

There are numerous Hadith for numerous sources. Here is just another to add to the discussion

" Abul Qasim Ja'far b. Muhammad reported to me from his father, from Sa'd b. Abdillah, from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa, from al-Hasan b. Mahboob, from Hisham, from Murazim who reported from al-Sadiq, Ja'far b. Muhammad, peace be upon him, who reported that:

The Prophet, peace be upon him and his progeny, said: "What has happened to some people in my Ummah, who become cheerful and jubilant when Ibrahim and the progeny of Ibrahim are mentioned to them; but when I and my progeny are mentioned, they detest it and frown at it! By He Who sent me as a truthful Prophet, if a person dies after having performed the (good) deeds of 70 Prophets, but he has no liking for the authority of our Ahlul Bait, Allah will not accept his obligatory or voluntary acts of worship."

dear Ali Zaki

it is good to point out any bad language. i hope that you would be doing this job within your own group too.  i have not read any language dirtier than the language that shia have used in their litrature for Umar (RA) and Aisha (RA).  i hope that you would be fighting against all the dirty words in shia litrature.

To Br. Aservent,

Some of the Shia go too far in this, and I believe it is wrong. However, we also SHOULD NOT cover up actual events of history that happened, the substance of which are agreed to by both Sunni and Shia.

Those who actively and openly opposed the Prophet (a.s.) or his Ahly Al'Bayt are cursed by Allah (s.w.a.), and that is enought for me. As for those who secretly opposed them, Allah will bring the truth to everyone sooner or later. Whether each individual wants to face this clear truth in this world or the next is up to them.

May Allah (s.w.a) guide all those who sincerely seek him to his path.

dear Ali Zaki

wait wait wait. which hsitory is agreed to by both sunni and shia?  the history told to us by shia?  no no no.

history tels us that the Holy Prophet peace be upon him himelf orderded Abu Bakar (ra) to be imam in masjid-e-nabvi.  and i am sure that what was the meaning of beeing imam in that masjid at that time.  and once even prophet peace be upon him intended to pray behind Abu Bakar (ra) but Abu Bakar (ra) did not let it happen.

by the way, do you realy understand the meaning to Ahly AlBayt?  in Quran Allah mentions about Ahly AlBayt of Nooh (as). who were they?  i tell you.  Aisha (ra) was more of Ahly AlBayt than Ali (ra).  Allah mentions in Quran about Abu Bakar (ra) with the title of  "THE COMPANION".  is there any other companion mentioned by Allah like this.  Ali (ra) gave his daughter in marriage to Omer (ra).  i read in one of your books that Ali (ra) had so much knowledge that actualy he was the teacher of Ambiya (as).  Astaghfirullah.  if he had this much knowledge then why did he give his daughter to Omer (ra) who in you books in munafiq (Astaghfirullah).

is this all the history that is agreed upon?

you mentiond that some people opposed Prophet peace be upon him secretly and Allah will bring that truth to us.  by the way who told you that secret that no one else other than the shias knows even before Allah has brought that "truth" to us?

a well wisher

Salam to Br. aservent,

I wonder where you get this information?

If you read my previous posts on the subject of the appointment of Imam Ali (a.s.) by the Holy Messenger (a.s.), (see Hmmmm, starting on page 5), I quoted sources for my statements from MAINSTREAM Sunni collections of hadith. I also gave tafseer of Quran (regarding the "verse of purification" ) from MAINSTREAM sunni scholars.

By contrast you (and others) are found of simply making statements like " once even prophet peace be upon him intended to pray behind Abu Bakar (ra)" without citing your sources. If these hadith come from the collections of hadith that you are found of (such as Ibn Tamian), then please cite the source so that I can verify where you are getting this from. I have asked (many, many times now) for sources, and have yet to receive a response.

By the way, I have talked to many Sunni brothers about this subject, and this is the first time that I heard any Sunni claim that Abu Bakr was APPOINTED by the Prophet (a.s.) as the first Caliph. So you deny that the Saqifa (election) took place? Isn't the Sunni position that the Prophet DID NOT appoint a successor? Please cite you sources for this information.

"i read in one of your books that Ali (ra) had so much knowledge that actualy he was the teacher of Ambiya (as)." WHICH BOOK?

Have I made myself clear on this point yet???

Bismillah

Wa'alaikumu Salaam Br Ali Zaki,

Without intending to add any fuel in the fire, i'd like to add that although i have some shia acquaintances, i've always wondered why, quite frequently, they attribute more attention to Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) than to Muhammad (may Allah's peace be upon him) himself.

Some of the sayings of the Prophet are re-attributed as sayings of Ali (and there is no doubt that he might have ben citing the Prophet, of which there is often no mention).

Ali (may Allah reward him) is well accepted and very much respected by Muslims, whereas Shia strictly refuse to give names like Abu Bakr, or Umar to their children.

I have always been, not so much ignorant, as uninterested to study details of shiah thought especially when widely practiced acts of self-beating are self-explanatory.

Why divide when our God is same and the Prophet (peace be upon him) is the same... so sad.

Salam to MOCKBA,

The Shia belive that the souce of ALL of the knowledge of the 12 Imams comes exclusively from Quran and Sunna (of the Prophet (a.s.)). You will often see (in Shia books of Hadith) that the Imam will say, "I heard such and such from my grandfather (or my ancestor)" and this refers only to the Holy Messenger (a.s.), and not the literal grandfather (except in the case of Imam Hassan (a.s.) and Imam Hussien (a.s.)). The reason that an anterior "chain of narration" is not cited when an Imam (a.s.) gives a hadith is because of the concept of infallibility of the Imams. Which means that if someone is massom (infallible), then it is not proper to ask them for a source as all of their words can be accepted on their own merits.

Imam Ali (a.s.) is famous for his speeches, however, you will notice that all of the statements he makes are supported by Quran and Hadith (even if he doesn't explicitly state that this is from Quran). This becomes even more clear if you read any of his famous dua'as (such as Duya Kumail http://al-islam.org/kumayl/english.htm - http://al-islam.org/kumayl/english.htm ) in which he combines Quranic concepts in such a beautiful and elegant way that noone can question doubt that it comes from a divine source (i.e., the Holy Quran).

If you study the early history of the Shia, you will notice Shia's with names like Abu Bakr and Omar. However, due to the polarization of the Umma after the tragedy of Karbala (and the Ummayids), this changed.

The Shia did not try to seperate themselves, and in fact, the Imams who were allowed to preach and teach in the open had students of many different backgrounds and schools of thought. The seperation of the Shia occured mainly due to the policies of the Ummayid and Abbasiad Caliphs who made it their policy to murder anyone who claimed to be a Shia, thus challenging their authority and legitimacy. The Shia today do not try to seperate themselves, however, they also do not hide their obedience to and love for the Ahly Al'Bayt (which many do not like to see expressed).

Salam

Ali Zaki wrote: By the way, I have talked to many Sunni brothers about this subject, and this is the first time that I heard any Sunni claim that Abu Bakr was APPOINTED by the Prophet (a.s.) as the first Caliph. So you deny that the Saqifa (election) took place? Isn't the Sunni position that the Prophet DID NOT appoint a successor? Please cite you sources for this information.

Dear Ali Zaki

I think that you get some kind of hallucinations while reading my post.  I did not say that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him appointed Abu Bakar (ra) as the first caliph.  What I said is that prophet peace by upon him during the time of his last sickness appointed Abu Bakar (ra) as the Imam of masjid-e-nabvi to lead the prayers.  This imam does not mean something like your supernatural imams who�s imamat in your eyes is superior to prophethood.

Why prophet peace be upon him did not appoint Ali (ra) to lead the prayers in masjid-e-nabvi if he was the best among all there?  By appointing Abu Bakar (ra) as the imam of masjid-e-nabvi, prophet peace be upon him gave a clear sign that Abu Bakar (ra) would be the leader when prophet peace be upon is not there.  This was a regular practice there for long time that caliph of this ummah was also the imam of masjid-e-nabvi to lead the prayers.

Once again I will ask that why prophet peace be upon him not appointed Ali (ra) as the imam of masjid-e-nabvi?

May allah guide you.

A well wisher

Salam Brother

aservent wrote,

" I did not say that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him appointed Abu Bakar (ra) as the first caliph. "

"By appointing Abu Bakar (ra) as the imam of masjid-e-nabvi, prophet peace be upon him gave a clear sign that Abu Bakar (ra) would be the leader when prophet peace be upon is not there".

This reminds me alot of what I used to hear in church, i.e., that 1+1+1=1. Allah (s.w.a.) and his messenger are more merciful then to leave any doubt about this issue. See "The Last Caliph" for more on this.

dear Ali Zaki

just answer this question, if you can, that i have asked you two times.  why prophet peace be upon him appointed Abu Bakar (ra) to lead prayers in masjid-e-nabvi during his last sickness?  we know that in islamic sharia the person leading the prayers should be the best among all.  if Ali (ra) was the best of all then why prophet peace be upon him did not appoint Ali (ra) to lead the prayers?  why prophet peace be upon him appointed Abu Bakar (ra) as the imam in masjid-e-nabvi???

if you still do not understand my question then i can make it further clear.

a well wisher

Salam to aservent,

Here is the answer;  I don't know. Allah and the Prophet (a.s.) know better the reason (if this incident, which I am not familiar with, occured and/or had any significance).

You have said that Abu Bakr was not appointed by the Prophet. I am confused, as you seem to now be saying that the prophet WAS telling the people by this appointment that he WAS appointing Abu Bakr. So I have answered your question, maybe you can answer mine.

Did the prophet ever appoint Abu Bakr as his successor?

Ali Zaki wrote: Allah and the Prophet (a.s.) know better the reason (if this incident, which I am not familiar with, occured and/or had any significance).

this is an event in undeniable history and its significance is clear, obvious and well known.

You have said that Abu Bakr was not appointed by the Prophet. I am confused, as you seem to now be saying that the prophet WAS telling the people by this appointment that he WAS appointing Abu Bakr.

surely you are confused.  because you have set a definition of the word IMAM beyond the limits of reality.  when i say that Abu Bakar (ra) was appointed as iman in masjid-e-nabvi i mean an imam who leads the prayers in masjid.  in other words an imam-masjid.  but as you cannot think of anything other than a supernatural imam as you think of Ali (ra) then probably no one can help you unless you help yourself.

Did the prophet ever appoint Abu Bakr as his successor?

the answer is no as well as yes.  prophet peace be upon him did not cleary say that who will be his successor because if he would have done this then every king and leader was going to take it as his right to appoint anyone of his personal choice as the successor.  so prophet peace be upon him due to his ultimate intelligence did not appoint any successor by name.  but in some ways prophet peace be upon him clearly indicated that who should be the successor.  during his life prophet peace be upon him lead the prayers for muslims.  during his last sickness when he was not able to lead the prayer the place of the leader in masji-e-nabvi to lead the prayer became vacant.  prophet peace be upon him made Abu Bakr (ra) to take his position and lead the prayers for muslims.  is this not a clear indication?  does it not clearly tell us that when prophet peace be upon him is not able to lead then Abu Bakr (ra) will lead?

as you said that you are not aware of this piece of history then i must tell you few more bits of this event.  during the sickness of prophet peace be upon him, due to some reason Omer (ra) once had to lead the prayer.  when prophet peace be upon him came to know about this he peace be upon him did not like it and said clearly that ONLY ABU BAKR (RA) WILL LEAD THE PRAYR.  dear Ali Zaki, if you still dont understand the significance of this event then no one can help you.

in the last i must appreciate your boldness and fairness in saying that you dont know.  i respcet this admittance.  we are all human beeings and we cannot have the knowledge of everything.  but we must understand that if we dont know about about something that it does not mean that no one in this world knows about that.  we must try to know.  and if you dont try to know then there is a great danger that you will waste your life in complete darkness.

may Allah give all of us the true knowledge.

a well wisher

Dear Br. aservent,

"O ye who believe!  Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those vested with authority over you ('ul ul-'amr minkum).  And if you quarrel about something, refer it to Allah and the Messenger." (4:59 )

If this is a WELL KNOWN event in Muslim history, then why was there such a vigorous debate at Saqifa regarding who should be the successor the prophet? If there was a disagreement among those at Saqifa (and there certainly was a tribal dispute, as well as some who put forward the right of the appointed Imam (a.s.)), then why did they not obey Quran and refer it to the wishes of the messenger (if his wishes were clearly expressed by this event).

Did the prophet ever say that "Abu Bakr is my successor"? Did the prophet ever say " Abu Bakr is my Wasi?" Did the prophet ever appoint Abu Bakr as his representative (other then the incident of giving the "news" to the Quraish, when he was replaced by Imam Ali (a.s.))?

I find it amazing that you find the strong evidence in the incident you cited of Abu Bakrs appointment, and yet you ignore all of the hadith I have given you from your own books regarding Imam Ali (a.s.)

"He who wishes to live as I have, and die as I will die, and enter the Garden of Eternal Bliss which Allah has promised to me - let him take 'Ali as his leader (wali), because 'Ali will never lead you away from the Path of Truth, nor will he take you into error."

al-Mustadrak, al-Hakim, 3:128; Kanz al-Ummal, al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, 6:155

"'Ali is the authority (wali) over every believer (mu'min) after me."

Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, 5:25; Sahih Tirmidhi, 5: 296

"He who obeys me will have obeyed Allah, and he who disobeys me will have disobeyed Allah.  And he who obeys 'Ali will have obeyed me, and he who disobeys 'Ali will have disobeyed me."

al-Hakim, 3:221. 

(Regarding the Battle of Kaybar)

"I will certainly give this standard to a man whom Allah and His Messenger love;" other narrations say that the Holy Prophet (pbuh&hf) said: "Allah will grant victory through the one who loves Allah and His Messenger."  In either case, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh&hf) gave his standard to 'Ali (pbuh), and Allah granted victory at his (pbuh) hand.

Sahih Bukhari, Book of Jihad and Marching, hadith #2724, #2753; Battles hadith #3888; Sahih Muslim, Book on the Merits of the Companions, hadith #4423 and #4424; Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, 5:333

Can you show me where the Prophet (a.s.) has said similar things about Abu Bakr???