Print Page | Close Window

Rules Lawyers Ruin Enjoyment

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: General
Forum Name: Comments & Complaints
Forum Description: Comments & Complaints
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10885
Printed Date: 19 March 2024 at 9:42am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Rules Lawyers Ruin Enjoyment
Posted By: Angela
Subject: Rules Lawyers Ruin Enjoyment
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 6:37am
There is a difference between Guidelines and RULES.

Simply put, I play a very complicated game on the weekends with a group of friends.  There are so many RULES that often it robs the game of enjoyment if you focus on them too much.  Therefore, 90% of the people who play this game will ignore certain rules to make the game more enjoyable.  Then there are 5% that ignore all rules, these people make the game unruly and are the very reason the rules exist.  Then there is that last 5% that must follow every rule specifically.

This 5% make the game just as unenjoyable as the 5% who insist on breaking every rule.

There comes a time and place where one must think, why was this rule put into place and does enforcing this rule defeat the purpose of the site.

Not all situations are the same. 

I for one am complaining because of the many "rules enforcements" that I PERSONALLY find ridiculous. 

The Saudi King (a secular monarch) gives a Christian Leader a sword.  Suddenly the post is in Intra-Faith where the CHRISTIANS cannot discuss what the symbolism might be perceived as.

The ORIGINAL post on the Girl of Qatif is placed where it belongs.  In the Women's section, this was a crime against a woman.  Its one that happens to WOMEN ALL OVER THE WORLD.  My point was to discuss not the legal mumbo-jumbo but the women's issues when it comes to female victims in society.  It wasn't a conversation intended to be about the Saudi Legal System as Israfil's was, but about the social plight of women.  I could care less about legal this and legal that.  I wanted to discuss women's rights, women's place in society and how women can change this condition that exists both in the strictest and freest of societies.

The GUIDELINES were put in place as a way of protecting the active and honest participants from the Trolls.  They are not meant to be enforced with an Iron Hand.  This is not a dictatorship.  I complain about things in general not JUST these examples.  The constant moving of forums, closing of forums about the same subject but different aspects.  The tolerance of the Umteen Million posts about Trinitarian Doctrine but other topics get slammed shut if they are similar. 

Oh, and the fact that NO ONE can comment on this forum to support or argue against my points.  Would you really want twenty different posts with the exact same arguments?  Or wouldn't you rather save a little server space (which is my profession, servers) and let others either agree or disagree.  20 people on one post is better than twenty different posts.

I think we should be able to back up or disagree on complaint posts.  If I could start a poll, I would to see how many people agree with me that the current environment is not conducive to open discussion.  I would also wonder how many believed that should be able to comment on compliant posts.  I go to three other Islamic sites.  None of them have this problem.  They allow user polls and real discussion on what people would like with the forum.

I personally WANT people to comment on this post and add their 2 cents.  I want them to be allowed to add their opinions so that ALL the moderators know that the active and longtime participates are tired of being treated like the shortterm troublemakers.

Rules Lawyers ruin it for everyone.  Sometimes, a rule is less a rule and more of just a  suggestion,  it not there to  enforce everytime.   This isn't obligatory stuff,  and not everything has been really effective for what it was intended.



Replies:
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 10:46am

"Rules Lawyers ruin it for everyone.  Sometimes, a rule is less a rule and more of just a  suggestion,  it not there to  enforce everytime.  This isn't obligatory stuff,  and not everything has been really effective for what it was intended."

Many rules were derived facing the experiences we had that you would not understand nor can they be explained here. Many respectable members left this place due to the insults/violations caused by others. And yes, rules will be applied uniformly to  everyone.

This section alone has caused many personal attacks that will not be allowed any further. 

We interpret rules only for the sake of courtesy, we are not obligated to do so.

25. Your participation in discussion forums is a privilege and not a right. "Free Speech" here means that you don't pay for speaking your mind as opposed to any other belief(s) you might have. We reserve the right to remove any comment or comments that are not in line with the above rules, without giving reasons, notifications, or explanations to anyone.

Guidelines

The issues you raised here have already been explained before. Therefore, there is no point to go over that.

Today is the day of Eid, let us celebrate it and avoid arguing, please. 

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by peacemaker peacemaker wrote:

Many rules were derived facing the experiences we had that you would not understand nor can they be explained here. Many respectable members left this place due to the insults/violations caused by others. And yes, rules will be applied uniformly to  everyone.


Of all the condescending insults.  I could never understand.  Just search for any forum here with the word Mormon in it and you see insult upon insult.  Many respectable members have also left because of the insanity of the rules enforcements.

BMZ, Andalus and the other Mods are not nearly as strict as you?  Wonder why???  You enforce the rules arbitrarily and NO YOU DO NOT ENFORCE THEM UNIFORMLY OR THE QUESTIONS ON THE TRINITY FORUM WOULD BE CLOSED. 

I disagree that the rules are enforced fairly.  Explain the Saudi King, Pope forum being moved to INTRAfaith instead of INTERfaith...or left in Current Events since they are both MONARCHS of countries.  Vatican City being a country if you didn't know.

This is ridiculous.  If you look at ever single one of the complaints about threads being moved, closed and/or posters being threatened with being banned because they dared comment in the wrong section.  Your name is attached.  Not the other Moderators. 

You consider this a personal attack and threaten to ban me again.  So be it, ban me.  You're a MODERATOR that is acting unfairly and its obvious to many that you go overboard and make arbitrary rulings that ARE NOT in the guidelines.  The Pope is Christian, the Saudi King Muslim, where in your precious guidelines does that Make it INTRAfaith.

Where in the guidelines does it say you have to close forums that are on different aspects of the same subject.  If that were true, you would have to close every topic on Jesus's nature, proofs of Muhammed's prophethood and the history of Islam/Christianity that pop up in Interfaith because they've all been done before.

No, you can't do that because it would restrict that NATURAL flow of conversation.  I'm not talking about saying whatever you want.  Which is what the free speech rule is about.  That rules INTENTIONS were to prevent trolls from insulting people, telling lies about faiths and flat out attacking posters.  Which I might add is covered under other rules.  It was not intended to restrict normal conversations between posters which is what you've been using it for. 

We have had many great and wonderful moderators who've managed to keep the spirit of this forum alive without slamming the lawbook down when they feel like it.  If the rules were enforced uniformly, I would maybe be less inclined to complain...which is the TITLE of this section.  But Non-Muslims are dealt with more harshly than recent reverts and Muslims.  Even if that Non-Muslim like Servetus, DavidC, et al have show they understand the topic just as well as a recent revert or longterm Muslim.  Belief and Understanding are two different things.

I have seen behavior from Sign*Reader (no offense to SR) be tolerated that would have gotten a non Muslim Banned.  Whisper insults Americans with impunity...though I've finally learned most of its sarcasm on steriods, its hard for others to separate why that's okay, yet challenging Saudi justice systems is not okay. Wasi posted a NAKED picture and a lie about a Muslim woman on this site...both a violation of you GUIDELINES and of Quranic Law.  Yet, its me who's being threatened with being banned.

You are not as fair and balanced as you think you are.  And that is my complaint.   And as a Moderator, I am making my complaint public so if I get banned...everyone knows WHY!



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 20 December 2007 at 4:56am

"Of all the condescending insults. I could never understand. Just search for any forum here with the word Mormon in it and you see insult upon insult. Many respectable members have also left because of the insanity of the rules enforcements."

We regret those insults. If you remember, many times you were insulted, moderators, including me, were involved to help you; once a thread, started by a Muslim member, was closed when you objected that it was against your faith.

"BMZ, Andalus and the other Mods are not nearly as strict as you? Wonder why??? You enforce the rules arbitrarily and NO YOU DO NOT ENFORCE THEM UNIFORMLY OR THE QUESTIONS ON THE TRINITY FORUM WOULD BE CLOSED."

All moderators are unique and function in that manner, but we all have a common superior aim to make this forum a better place. We may have different ways or styles.

Due to time constraints and lack of moderators, I am not able to cover all forums. Sometimes I have not visited here for weeks. But, whenever I visit there and find anything in non-compliance I take steps. The best thing is to report when you see anything that violates rules.

Yes, I may appear strict. I am attached to IC not only from Dec 29, 2005. In fact, that was when I just visited the forum to see what was going on. When I saw the condition, I wanted to help it and didn�t leave. In fact I have been a member of the main web site for more than 5 years. So, it is like motherly love that I carry. . . . All mothers are different, isn�t it? And I am also a father in real life. . . . I have been more than a participant and moderator. . . .

"I disagree that the rules are enforced fairly. Explain the Saudi King, Pope forum being moved to INTRAfaith instead of INTERfaith...or left in Current Events since they are both MONARCHS of countries. Vatican City being a country if you didn't know."

I explained why I did what I did. I am not saying that I am perfect, and I also don�t state that what I did must have been correct. Only some of the things don�t seem to make sense, right? Why is there such an uproar over that? I am not a prophet. I am a human being. Have I not done any good thing here in my last 2 years. I don�t see any thread over that. May I ask why?

"This is ridiculous. If you look at ever single one of the complaints about threads being moved, closed and/or posters being threatened with being banned because they dared comment in the wrong section. Your name is attached. Not the other Moderators."

How do you know it is only me who is doing all these things ? We work as "Moderator Group." This has been explained before. We work together. Admin is there. IC management is there. The public at IC is there. I have told them to explain to me in our private meetings if I am wrong somewhere. The public doesn�t see all that. I also have the plan that the day I over step and make serious violations, I will ban myself. I am straight forward in my real life as well.

We receive numerous reports and Pms, and I am happy to say that most of the members at I C appear to be satisfied with what is being done here

Another thing is where did I threaten someone to ban? Please quote the post, and be specific. I have not used the word "ban" in any of my posts as far as I remember.

"You consider this a personal attack and threaten to ban me again. So be it, ban me."

You were never banned here. Where did I threaten to ban you? Please quote the post.

"You're a MODERATOR that is acting unfairly and its obvious to many that you go overboard and make arbitrary rulings that ARE NOT in the guidelines. The Pope is Christian, the Saudi King Muslim, where in your precious guidelines does that Make it INTRAfaith."

I have covered this issue before.

"Where in the guidelines does it say you have to close forums that are on different aspects of the same subject. If that were true, you would have to close every topic on Jesus's nature, proofs of Muhammed's prophethood and the history of Islam/Christianity that pop up in Interfaith because they've all been done before."

I have covered this as well.

"No, you can't do that because it would restrict that NATURAL flow of conversation. I'm not talking about saying whatever you want. Which is what the free speech rule is about. That rules INTENTIONS were to prevent trolls from insulting people, telling lies about faiths and flat out attacking posters. Which I might add is covered under other rules. It was not intended to restrict normal conversations between posters which is what you've been using it for."

We have tolerance at many levels here. Hundreds of threads have remained untouched where discussion goes on smoothly in all sections

"We have had many great and wonderful moderators who've managed to keep the spirit of this forum alive without slamming the lawbook down when they feel like it. If the rules were enforced uniformly, I would maybe be less inclined to complain...which is the TITLE of this section. But Non-Muslims are dealt with more harshly than recent reverts and Muslims. Even if that Non-Muslim like Servetus, DavidC, et al have show they understand the topic just as well as a recent revert or longterm Muslim. Belief and Understanding are two different things."

We try to enforce the rules uniformly. We are not perfect, though. Servetus, for example, has never been touched by any of us. I personally admire him, and he can be a good example for all of us the way he complies with rules.

"I have seen behavior from Sign*Reader (no offense to SR) be tolerated that would have gotten a non Muslim Banned. Whisper insults Americans with impunity...though I've finally learned most of its sarcasm on steriods, its hard for others to separate why that's okay, yet challenging Saudi justice systems is not okay. Wasi posted a NAKED picture and a lie about a Muslim woman on this site...both a violation of you GUIDELINES and of Quranic Law. Yet, its me who's being threatened with being banned."

Many Muslim members such as Hanan and Whisper were suspended for some time. Many Muslims have also been banned here. Many non-Muslims such as buddyman also continue to take part in spite of many violations.

Saudi justice system is currently being discussed in the Current Events section in the rape victim thread. If sectarian theological issues develop there, it will be moved to intra faith, even though I personally wish that that doesn't happen.

Moderators normally don�t ban people individually. Banning is a decision that is done collectively. At that level, admin or/and IC management get involved.

"You are not as fair and balanced as you think you are. And that is my complaint. And as a Moderator, I am making my complaint public so if I get banned...everyone knows WHY!"

With all due respect, I may have flaws. I will never deny that. As a Muslim and human being, it is my duty to strive to become a better person each day, and I do that by the grace of Allah. And insha Allah, I will do more in the future.

I have never used "ban" word in any of my 1400+ posts. Please quote me one post. Yes, some guidelines may say so, and there is a reason why they say so. Yes, I have warned many here. But, I have never warned you as far as I remember, and I appreciate that you came up openly in this thread. I like discussions. I don�t like name-calling and personal attacks.

We appreciate your participation here. I will be away now for some time.

May Allah guide us all.

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 20 December 2007 at 5:36am

I have a question please. Something I dont understand.

Over the course of some weeks, one particular member has repeatedly attacked me verbally on IC, saying that I am deluded, need to see the GP, that Iam in self-destruct mode. Is this not an insult to me? He does not personally know, so why does he do it?Why has this not been challenged by the moderators? I am a human being, and I have no idea why this member likes to insult me He gives the facts clearly enough on certain topics raised, and I have no qualms about this. He is very knowledgeable. But surely I dont deserve the insults he dishes out. So why is this not picked up?



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 20 December 2007 at 12:20pm

 

 Martha, I have followed your posts in some other threads and found them quite well written. You seem to have a good idea of the religion. I feel that your posts were very well edited showing that you are a person with good knowledge and determination for the good. May Allah bless all the more.



-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 20 December 2007 at 5:17pm
banging my head on the desk screaming!!



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: karina
Date Posted: 20 December 2007 at 10:19pm

I have just joined this forum thios wekk, and I ma appalled y what's goign on.

I feel for Angela and others, and I may reconsider particpating.

This is so sad.

I  joined in the hope of getting closer to my religion and fellow muslims.



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 1:20am

minuteman, thankyou for your words of encouragement. My belief in Islam is based on firm simple truths, so I try my best

But you didnt answer my question?



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 2:26am
Originally posted by karina karina wrote:

I have just joined this forum thios wekk, and I ma appalled y what's goign on.

I feel for Angela and others, and I may reconsider particpating.

This is so sad.

I  joined in the hope of getting closer to my religion and fellow muslims.



Hi Karina, don't let this stop you from participating, What many of us are going on about is some unnecessary movements and closures. Some of the reasons given are not within the guidelines but made up along the way.


-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 3:05am
Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

I have a question please. Something I dont understand.

Over the course of some weeks, one particular member has repeatedly attacked me verbally on IC, saying that I am deluded, need to see the GP, that Iam in self-destruct mode. Is this not an insult to me? He does not personally know, so why does he do it?Why has this not been challenged by the moderators? I am a human being, and I have no idea why this member likes to insult me He gives the facts clearly enough on certain topics raised, and I have no qualms about this. He is very knowledgeable. But surely I dont deserve the insults he dishes out. So why is this not picked up?



Martha,

You are a wonderful woman never forget that.  If someone is harassing you, you need to hit the report button next to their post and send it in as a complaint.

As for the Saudi thing,

The point is my thread was not about Saudi Justice, Israfil's was.  Mine was about women in the Holy Kingdom and rape victims and punishments.  How men who raped a woman women were not stoned per Muhammed's (pbuh) way and yet this WOMAN was being beaten and the excuse was that no one should show mercy per the Quran's text?  That's a discussion that should be going on in my thread, why Women are treated differently...but no...it got shut down because it was the same event but a different topic. 

You miss the point...you admit your not perfect but you never correct your mistakes. Instead you just say, no one is perfect and leave it at that.  Move the threads back when people complain...or reopen them.  If you are going to be uniform, be uniform...not hit and miss.  If you're not perfect then you can be wrong which means you should be willing to correct your mistakes.  Anyway, this argument is futile. 

God Bless


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 4:02am

Hi Angela,

I can understand why you're unhappy about your thread being closed down. You are one of the people I most respect here. Because I know how passionate you are about the things you write. And your knowledge far exceeds mine on so much.

Yes,I admit I'm not perfect, but I dont see the point of reopening old posts. I dont think it benefits anyone if we keep repeating ourselves. And when I know I'm wrong I'll admit to it. But often there are times I cant reply because I dont know where I'm wrong........ If you get the drift.

Love, Martha  xx

 



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 10:48am
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

I have a question please. Something I dont understand.

Over the course of some weeks, one particular member has repeatedly attacked me verbally on IC, saying that I am deluded, need to see the GP, that Iam in self-destruct mode. Is this not an insult to me? He does not personally know, so why does he do it?Why has this not been challenged by the moderators? I am a human being, and I have no idea why this member likes to insult me He gives the facts clearly enough on certain topics raised, and I have no qualms about this. He is very knowledgeable. But surely I dont deserve the insults he dishes out. So why is this not picked up?



Martha,

You are a wonderful woman never forget that.  If someone is harassing you, you need to hit the report button next to their post and send it in as a complaint.

As for the Saudi thing,

The point is my thread was not about Saudi Justice, Israfil's was.  Mine was about women in the Holy Kingdom and rape victims and punishments.  How men who raped a woman women were not stoned per Muhammed's (pbuh) way and yet this WOMAN was being beaten and the excuse was that no one should show mercy per the Quran's text?  That's a discussion that should be going on in my thread, why Women are treated differently...but no...it got shut down because it was the same event but a different topic. 

You miss the point...you admit your not perfect but you never correct your mistakes. Instead you just say, no one is perfect and leave it at that.  Move the threads back when people complain...or reopen them.  If you are going to be uniform, be uniform...not hit and miss.  If you're not perfect then you can be wrong which means you should be willing to correct your mistakes.  Anyway, this argument is futile. 

God Bless

"you admit your not perfect but you never correct your mistakes."

How do you claim to know me? I have already told you in my last post that it is not I alone, it is moderator group. You have no evidence, yet you claim to know what is going on.  

Another thing is that in my last post, I asked you to show one post where I threatened to ban you as you claimed I did, and you showed none.

Speculating on one's character and integrity without any evidence goes against Islam; that is called slander. Please don't do again.

In the thread that I closed in women's section, I told you the same thing; please see that. I told you that Islam forbids us to speculate without any evidence.

And women's, men's, youth's sections etc will not be used for any type of current event. I have already explained that.

Yes, I feel I made no mistake and have explained enough on this matter.

I have already told you that we are not obligated to explain any step; we do so only for the sake of courtesy.

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by karina karina wrote:

I have just joined this forum thios wekk, and I ma appalled y what's goign on.

I feel for Angela and others, and I may reconsider particpating.

This is so sad.

I  joined in the hope of getting closer to my religion and fellow muslims.



Hi Karina, don't let this stop you from participating, What many of us are going on about is some unnecessary movements and closures. Some of the reasons given are not within the guidelines but made up along the way.

And have you been complying what is in the guidelines? You were warned before for absolute non-compliance. Yes, guidelines are being updated from time to time, and we will see what else could be included there. For the time being, nothing was made up, and I have already explained that.



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: truthseeker100
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 12:36pm

Salam,

Peacemaker,

I am happy to see the time and effort you put in here. You cannot make the whole world happy. There will always be some or many who will disagree with you. Even Prophets could not make everyone happy.

And the sad part is that even the sacred day of Eid was not spared and such discussions were carried here.

Yes, nobody is perfect. With that said, I appreciate that you devoted your precious time here even on Eid�s day. And you are one of the best moderators I have ever seen in my life. It is not exaggeration; it is just what I have been observing your very closely.

Please excuse me, peacemaker, to advise you that leave this place now and take care of your sick daughter.

May Allah bless you in both worlds. I am very grateful to you for your help and guidance in many ways. Please keep it up.

Eid Mubarak to all.



-------------
And, behold, with every hardship comes ease:
Qur'an 94: 5


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 5:39pm

As'Salamu Alaikum,

Eid Mubarak. Actually , i was busy with the celebrations of eid since two days. I did login but did not care to post anywhere. Well, am not as sincere as our moderator, Peacemaker, who even on the day of eid, tried to spent his time for IC.

Brother peacemaker, i don't understand, why u always give them explanation as why those threads are been closed ? It was well-explained many a times.

I need not discuss this known fact , but as a sort of revival, we know you as a "member- friendly moderator. I personally feel easy to approach you. You are an unbiased mod. When your decisions don't match up or support OUR views we PANIC. And this is what happening.

We thank you for lending your time for IC. And we wish you to continue with this same approach.

And Karina, never conclude of a person just by getting influenced by other's view. If u wish to judge a person, try to know him by your ownselves, rather than ---. Even in your personal life . Hope, u continue with us.

 



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:55pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

When your decisions don't match up or support OUR views we PANIC. And this is what happening.


No, that is not what is happening!

 



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 22 December 2007 at 12:28am
Originally posted by peacemaker peacemaker wrote:

Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by karina karina wrote:

I have just joined this forum thios wekk, and I ma appalled y what's goign on.

I feel for Angela and others, and I may reconsider particpating.

This is so sad.

I  joined in the hope of getting closer to my religion and fellow muslims.



Hi Karina, don't let this stop you from participating, What many of us are going on about is some unnecessary movements and closures. Some of the reasons given are not within the guidelines but made up along the way.

And have you been complying what is in the guidelines? You were warned before for absolute non-compliance. Yes, guidelines are being updated from time to time, and we will see what else could be included there. For the time being, nothing was made up, and I have already explained that.



This isn't about me, this is about you! And I don't makeup nonsense reasons on the spot and declare it that's in the guidelines.

I given you many examples, Angela's given some, and Herjihad  & whoever else may have. But all you do is came back with I've explained this before" that doesn't help. We are showing you and you don't see it! frustrating!
You want to be shown you are wrong you mentioned that in this thread, well we are showing and yet you do not want to see it.
We have asked where in the guidelines are your reasons because noone us can find it, but that too gets ignored.

You didn't want anything to do with my pm to about all this and told me to pass it on, I did.

You say above in response to Angela, that any current events if they are in men, youth or women's that it will get moved to current events,  all the years i have been here and I've done one just recently if its just about that particular groups, it stay. And now you come back with this ???

here's another example that I mentioned in my pm, many people do it: you warned a member about, I think it was jasperstone, that is making a thread with post after post from the poster. I have no idea where that is in the guidelines, I went and checked, making many threads on the same topic yes but not having a thread with a continuance of the posters posts. I just want to know because there is a thread of mine that I created a while back that I would like to revive but having doubts as I DO NOT want it to be closed by you, I want it to remain open. I have also posted post after post of other things and its never been a problem, SO I have no idea why you warn this poster about such a thing being in the guidelines.

Many of us put things in particular places SO WE CAN (& everyone) join and yet you moving certain threads to places where people can't, and moving where the poster doesn't have the post count, IS unfair.

Please don't say what else we can put in the guidelines, because that will do injustice to the boards. There is enough already. The argument is not about how good or bad the guidelines are, BUT YOUR decisions and reasons for some of your actions, which don't particularly follow the guidelines.


-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 22 December 2007 at 12:36am
Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

minuteman, thankyou for your words of encouragement. My belief in Islam is based on firm simple truths, so I try my best

But you didnt answer my question?

 About your question, I am sorry. I was not well aware and still I do not know what went on. If it is about a member then i did not follow your posts. I am unable to contribute.



-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 22 December 2007 at 11:32am

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Brother Peacemaker,

 

One thing I always admired about you is that you always put Islamic principals first. IC is an Islamic site and sometimes members tend to forget that.

 

As a moderator you have always made the right decisions at the right time, and I truly admire your courage for doing so.

 

You have a great responsibility as a Muslim first and foremost and then as a moderator and you have carried both responsibilities extremely well.

 

You don�t have to explain your actions to anyone and yet you go out of your way to do so. If some members are so fed up with the set up at IC then they can find alternative forums, instead of complaining time and time again. Alhamdulillah, Masha Allah there are no shortages of forums. I am positive they will find many forums where they are allowed to express their points of views without any guidelines or rules to worry about.

 

It is very sad that you had to spend your Eid days this way.

 

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala reward you with Khair both in this world and the next, for all your efforts. Ameen!

 

I read somewhere that your daughter is sick, May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala bless your daughter with His Shifa Ameen!

 

Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

 



-------------
�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 23 December 2007 at 12:52pm

Salaam everyone my apologies to Angela for my delay as I am really busy this time of the year.

As promised to Angela, I'd add whatever I can to this thread and so far from reading the previous responses it appears that everyone has a lot of frustrations and actually, despite what is said here it is good everyone is getting their opinions out. I think what this whole issue boils down to is communication, and how moderators and members alike can imporve the forum. I do agree with other members that there is favoritism here, not just with moderators but with members. I cannot comment on the closure of threads in particular, however I do see what the members are talking about.

I particularly cannot single out Peacemaker as he is the only "active" moderator in the threads at this time and as I said before not familiar with him closing down the threads of other members because sometimes I'm not aware (only the threads I've participated in). The only suggestion I can make here is part of moderating is communicating with members on the set rules and the ways we can make the forum better. Although we have "rules" it is important enough that we all remember that we are humans are sometimes are not confined to set rules this is why it is important for moderators to make members cognizant of those rules. HOWEVER, it is also important that moderators understand that their actions are looked at closely to see if those actions are impartial and carried out in the fairness of everyone.

Anyway, those are my two cents hope I can buy a response

 



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 23 December 2007 at 1:10pm
Salaams,

The only suggestion I can make here is part of moderating is communicating with members on the set rules and the ways we can make the forum better. Although we have "rules" it is important enough that we all remember that we are humans are sometimes are not confined to set rules this is why it is important for moderators to make members cognizant of those rules. HOWEVER, it is also important that moderators understand that their actions are looked at closely to see if those actions are impartial and carried out in the fairness of everyone.

Anyway, those are my two cents hope I can buy a response

Good ideas!




-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 23 December 2007 at 11:32pm

I really don't want to walk on eggshells or have the worry everytime I post in a thread or make a thread that it will be moved or closed because in some way it doesn't suit. We all try our best to put things in right places or to the closest place. I have said numerous times I myself like things in its proper place but its insane trying to be perfect all the time. And same topics will also be posted a few times sure its good to have all in one spot and not have too many of the same topic but sometimes it the needs are different.

When Peacemaker has gone off and said on why such and such closed or moved, some of those reasons are being pendantic, and for that how are people suppose to feel relaxed without worrying about their threads or post being closed or moved to areas that they cannot be involved anymore. That is frustrating. If nothing gets done, there will be more complaints and frustrations, and people probably end up leaving.



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 24 December 2007 at 2:23am
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

I really don't want to walk on eggshells or have the worry everytime I post in a thread or make a thread that it will be moved or closed because in some way it doesn't suit. We all try our best to put things in right places or to the closest place. I have said numerous times I myself like things in its proper place but its insane trying to be perfect all the time. And same topics will also be posted a few times sure its good to have all in one spot and not have too many of the same topic but sometimes it the needs are different.

When Peacemaker has gone off and said on why such and such closed or moved, some of those reasons are being pendantic, and for that how are people suppose to feel relaxed without worrying about their threads or post being closed or moved to areas that they cannot be involved anymore. That is frustrating. If nothing gets done, there will be more complaints and frustrations, and people probably end up leaving.



Salaams Angel,

Also a great response.  Very sensible!


-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 24 December 2007 at 3:42am

One more aspect which we needs attention is : we are n't respecting Moderators.

 Am not speaking of  Brother Peacemaker alone, but its a general statement. For every action of the mods, a question is  araised? Its not that they act, unnoticably, they do give there reason for either closure of a topic or moving it. But we question them. Why don't we put our trust in them that they act for the betterment of the site, instead of taking it personal.

 Even as members,we are to  work for the peace of IC. Remember our responsibility as a member. It has become often that most of the members question - why?  Our mods must be selected on some sound basis. They take a collective decision, as said earlier.

Moderators are human like us. They may unintentionally, take a wrong decision. Many times did Bro, Peacemaker, tell us to correct if  they are wrong. But the way we  try to correct them is wrong. Anyways, i again stress over the point of respecting the mods, and a new rule be started that the mods shud not be questioned of there decisions. If at all any member has any problem with the decision of mods, they can contact Administrators. Since, this way, creates an unncecessary chaos within the members and leads to groupism. Secondly, the complaint gives a wrong picture of the mods, which may confuse a new member.



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 24 December 2007 at 8:54am

As Salamu Alaikum

Now I will have my 2 cents.

Despite all the ups and downs at IC this is one great forum.

Insha Allah, we can work together to make it the greatest.

Salams



-------------
�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 24 December 2007 at 11:16pm

One more aspect which we needs attention is : we are n't respecting Moderators.

One thing you should remember here is from the comments that were previously posted, most of the comments are not disrespecting moderators rather, erbalizing their complaints on what is and is not fair. A point you may not understand is constructive criticism is not dehumanizing someone but questioning certain decision making. You cannot make the same mistakes and call it human nature, you may want to call it a problem, but this is not directed towards brother peacemaker but in general.



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 25 December 2007 at 1:24am
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

One more aspect which we needs attention is : we are n't respecting Moderators.

 Am not speaking of  Brother Peacemaker alone, but its a general statement. For every action of the mods, a question is  araised? Its not that they act, unnoticably, they do give there reason for either closure of a topic or moving it. But we question them. Why don't we put our trust in them that they act for the betterment of the site, instead of taking it personal.

 Even as members,we are to  work for the peace of IC. Remember our responsibility as a member. It has become often that most of the members question - why?  Our mods must be selected on some sound basis. They take a collective decision, as said earlier.

Moderators are human like us. They may unintentionally, take a wrong decision. Many times did Bro, Peacemaker, tell us to correct if  they are wrong. But the way we  try to correct them is wrong. Anyways, i again stress over the point of respecting the mods, and a new rule be started that the mods shud not be questioned of there decisions. If at all any member has any problem with the decision of mods, they can contact Administrators. Since, this way, creates an unncecessary chaos within the members and leads to groupism. Secondly, the complaint gives a wrong picture of the mods, which may confuse a new member.



Salaams dear brother,

I hate to repeat myself, naw, I actually like it sometimes.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

That's how I feel the moderators behave a lot of the time.

Peace


-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 1:52am
seekshidayath,

Respect is earned, not a benefit of position.  I do not respect my own President.  Why?  His actions do not make him worthy.

I do not give or take away my respect based on titles.  The farmer and muckrakers are the same to me as the Kings and Billionaires. 

I am lodging a complaint over numerous and repeated actions.  I in fact respect many of the moderators here and the hard work they do.  However, there is a fine line between moderation and censorship.  Moderation is a middle ground.  A MODERATOR is someone who takes a neutral stance and works to find the common ground that works for the majority.  Constantly making arbitrary decisions based on one's personal opinion and interpretation is not moderation.  Its censorship.

I complain because its the same over and over.  Threads moved and/or closed without just cause.  Posters warned that they cannot post in certain forums, but the thread that they were an active participant in was moved to that forum out of one they could participate in.  That is not fair.  To move a thread into a forum after the conversation is well on it way and then chase out all the posters who don't fit in that category is wrong.

I personally feel that Peacemaker has been condescending to me.  In this post and others.  I feel this is because I am not Muslim.  Well, I feel that if you are going to be condescending and insult someones intelligence because they belong to a particular group.  You deserver to be called on the carpet about it.  Just because I'm not Muslim does not make me st**id.  I have 6 years of college under my belt.  I speak 2 languages and read one book a week in addition to my scriptural studies.  I'm tired of him treating me like a child because I've never said Shahada.  Maybe its because I'm a woman.  I don't know, all I know is its getting to the point were I will not be silent on the innuendo and responses to me.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 9:20am

Hi Angela,

I did not want to get dragged into your politics, but today am direct to you.   I shall remind you again that Brother peacemaker did say us many times that if he is wrong anywhere, to let him know

And also go thru these lines of his from a link Angel 's thread at "Comments and complaint" section - "For Peace maker"

Assalamu Alaikum and hi everyone,

There is always room for improvement at all levels in the way one behaves or interacts with fellow human beings. As a moderator, I carry even a bigger responsibility to act in the best possible manner. Even though my intention was not and is not to hurt anybody, I apologize to anyone who might have been offended in any way.

I appreciate your concerns toward me, the moderator group, and the forum in general, and we will see, within our capacities, to figure out what is the best in the interest of all.

We look forward to making this forum a better place for all those who visit here to learn, share, and grow together.

May Allah guide us all.

And for me and most of the members here, Bro. Peacemaker is

 A MODERATOR is someone who takes a neutral stance and works to find the common ground that works for the majority.

Else we would not have got those beautiful  lines of brother peacemaker {above}  asking angel and her group to forgive. Even my threads were moved and even deleted and may be even other members must have experienced there posts too. We did not create fuss of it

Just because I'm not Muslim does not make me st**id. 

Well, is Israfil a non-muslim, that even he complained that he is targeted. Is Brother Walid a non-muslim that even i see his thread in this section. I have many more names.

Does this statement of yours not create chaos toa new members and even we members too ?

Maybe its because I'm a woman. 

Yes, since you are a woman so, did we got to read this post of yours today. Angela, you are the one of the senior most members here. If you were to be targeted as you feel, you would not have stayed ON till today at IC. I do respect you as a senior member. You must know IC well than me but today being a woman you got the tendency to be depressed soon. T

This quality of woman which i dislike is, when thet get depressed, they recall all those old sufferings , Once upon a time------- stories.

Dear Angela, please do remove this misconception that since you are a non-muslim, all these happened to you., Try to forget all that happened. And view the happening  positively. Am not judging if the decision was right or wrong, since its not my job. And as said, a decision is not from a single mod but a mutual decision. Right now, you must be in bad moods. So put off this section and cool yourselves with other threads. And see that this does n't affect your personal life too.

And i also request our all other active members of this thread, please try to minimise this problem, instead of moving it to pages and fanning this issue.

Please do remind me too if i also be amongst those. Angela, am again sorry if i were tough in my post. What to do your lines demanded me that. I wished to send this privately, but again felt even new members and other members who login here, shud not get into this trap of misconception about our mods esp Brother peace maker.

 

 

 

 



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 9:22pm
Brother Seek, before you drag my name into this please kindly use any my post references where I said I was targeted.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 3:06am
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

Maybe its because I'm a woman. 

Yes, since you are a woman so, did we got to read this post of yours today. Angela, you are the one of the senior most members here. If you were to be targeted as you feel, you would not have stayed ON till today at IC. I do respect you as a senior member. You must know IC well than me but today being a woman you got the tendency to be depressed soon. T

This quality of woman which i dislike is, when thet get depressed, they recall all those old sufferings , Once upon a time------- stories.

Dear Angela, please do remove this misconception that since you are a non-muslim, all these happened to you., Try to forget all that happened. And view the happening  positively. Am not judging if the decision was right or wrong, since its not my job. And as said, a decision is not from a single mod but a mutual decision. Right now, you must be in bad moods. So put off this section and cool yourselves with other threads. And see that this does n't affect your personal life too.



Again, this is the condescending crap I am talking about.  Because I'm a woman I get depressed.  Bah, men get depressed too.  I think more so than women.  I think women are emotionally stronger because we express our emotions and don't bottle them up.

It doesn't affect my personal life.  Once or twice, I sat silent or lodged my complaint in private.  I started this thread because its become epidemic and too common.  There comes a time when someone must speak up when those "in charge" have gone to far.

I am tired of having threads moved around like a ball under a cup.  I'm tired of threads being closed for absolutely no good reason.  And I'm tired of having an active thread yanked out from underneath people who WANT to participate in it.

You don't create a place of conversation to say...well you can only talk about what I want you to talk about...

Free speech means on this forum you don't have to pay.  I understand that.  But I see far less fighting and strife on Islamic and Non-Islamic forums that don't moderate so heavy handed as the ONE moderator on this site does.

If all the moderators were as heavy handed I would have left a long time ago.  But, its only one or two at a time who let the power go to their head.

Peacemaker can apologize and make excuses that no ones perfect.  Fine...but he needs to change the behavior and not just apologize.  The Sin is only forgiven if you don't keep sinning over and over after you've repented.


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 4:58am

Angela,

We both know that women are emotionally stronger than the men. One day they will understand this better. We also know that this statement does not belittle the man one little bit. As women we are fully aware of mans role. And both sexes are seen as equal. Both have their weaknesses and strengths and compliment eachother perfectly.

I hope you consider me an ally. I hope I never give the impression of being condescending with you. I hope I also have the added advantage to others that have never been anything other than muslim. I can see your religious point of view because you know I was previously a mormon. The mormon teachings have beyond doubt prepared me for my current personal life. I doubt I could begin to live as a muslim had I not had an understanding of polygamy.Strange that I have since been  put in this position.  

You are an immense help in IC. Your strength is much needed when so many of us women are unable to freely express their beliefs. You boldly and rightly point out errors. You will notice that I am expressing myself more freely in some of the threads. Each day I am a stronger woman. Please continue to do what you do here. You are a fantastic example. Somehow I visualise you as a high ranking officer with us little women following behind. I like that idea of you. You put into words what us others fail to do, because we just dont have that same quality.

 

 



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:53am

Bro Israfil i shall reply you. Right now am very busy.. Hope u excuse me

And girls, go thru this. We have Bro peacemaker, Sis Alwardah and Herjihad too. Kindly go thru my post too.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8018&KW=depression - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8018& ;KW=depression

I don't belong to any ally, but trying my best for peace at IC.

 



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:55am
And yes, don't get depressed again. Hope u spare me, as am kidding.. May be that link  shall also be of some help, isnha-Allah

-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 8:36am

Angela, and Martha I understand both your frustation but please don't play the gender game i.e. women are stronger than men at this or that. I'm sorry but I'm sensitive to these comments. There are over 6 billion people on this planet, and I hardly doubt women globally are emotionally stronger than men. I think depending on culture this is the case but this varies. Please don't allow comments from other men make you generalize yourself. Remember vulture especially on IslamiCity, is an influence in the opinions of people here so obviously if Seek believes you get depressed easily (which I didn't understand this remark) then take that into consideration that 1) that is his opinion and 2) he is probably speaking from his own experience culturally.

"Your strength is much needed when so many of us women are unable to freely express their beliefs"

It's great that Angela is an avatar of change for you but please spare me the defenseless woman stuff. Women are strong emotionally, spititually just as men. You allow men mentally to psych you out in speaking your mind. Understand that this is internet you should speak up because this is not like you are in person in a REAL forum somewhere. Like another forum member said here my posts have recently become nasty. The beauty of all this is no of the opinins of people here really matter even if they are good. Seek does not know Angela  in real life nor do I know you both in real, life. You both could be jerks or wonderful people. Even if both of you are really cool online I don't know if you are like that in real life. But regardless of what is said here we should take comments in stride and keep stepping. Martha, strength comes from within motivated by others (but this is limited) but brought about from oneself.



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 8:37am

Seekshidayath, you are indeed an ally, bless you. I have inserted an exert from the encyclopedia to read.

In general, allies can be individuals, groups or nations that have joined together in an association for mutual benefit or to achieve some common or purpose. In English usage, those who share a common goal and whose work toward that goal is complementary may be viewed as allies for various purposes even when no explicit agreement has been worked out between them.

Sallams



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 10:49am
Israfil, thanks for your comments. Actually I'm not frustrated at all. I think you misunderstood my comment a bit when I said to Angela:-

"Your strength is much needed when so many of us women are unable to freely express their beliefs". What I meant was, not that I cant express my beliefs because I'm a woman, but because Angela has a far better way of doing it ie: her vocabulary is greater and she is a writer.

I certainly dont feel like a defenceless woman, thankgoodness. And I am a fairly strong person on the whole, emotionally and spiritually. Cant include the body on that, as it's not working too well at the moment. I also think I am pretty cool. 

Actually brother, I'm sure you're pretty cool too.

I enjoy the occasional spats here on IC. As I already said to Angela, I get stronger everyday. So I promise not to get psyched out at your posts. See you soon on another thread.

Salaams Israfil



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 9:58am
Salaams,

My $100 worth: I believe Angela and Seeks to be lovely wonderful people!


-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 10:32am

Assalamu Alaikum and hi everyone,

By the grace of Allah, things are better for me now; my daughter is feeling okay, even though family will still require my extra time and attention. She is a brilliant daughter by the grace of Allah. She aspires to become a scholar and a top class scientist. And as parents, we hope that one day she would become both, insha Allah. She may join this forum after a couple of years as she doesn�t meet the minimum age requirement for the time being.

Jazak Allah Khair and thanks to everyone for your prayers.

Rules in the guidelines are in place for the overall benefit of this forum; they were formulated after much deliberation, discussion and thought; they should be respected and complied with. As it was said earlier, we explain any moderation for the sake of courtesy, we are not obligated to do so. Yes, we will strive to become better, insha Allah, as time goes by to make this forum in line with its objectives.

Assertion, assumption and speculation without any evidence about one�s integrity and character doesn�t help anyone; that is slander. It only complicates matters, and doesn�t offer any solution. While constructive criticism, expressed respectfully of course, is encouraged in Islam and okay as per rules here, slander of any form is strongly discouraged by all standards.

There were many slanderous accusations directed at me in this thread even after I had reminded that it was not acceptable here. De facto, no moderation was done on the basis of one�s religious or cultural affiliation, gender, color, language, national origin or any other similar aspect, nor can enforcing rules by moderators be attributed to being rude and condescending. Let me reiterate that moderation was done on the basis of rules and guidelines.

Moderators, who volunteer their time for the sake of Allah without expecting any financial return from any of us, were not aspiring to power; in fact, they were asked to take up this task and they accepted; therefore, they deserve our appreciation at least in this respect. We all possess some kind of power; for example, the power to post beneficial posts at all levels can make a difference. Our words filled with knowledge and wisdom can go unimaginable distances.

Working with machines and counting 2 + 2 = 4 is one thing whereas dealing with human life and sensitivities involved therein is absolutely another ( and it becomes more complicated when two opposite sensitivities are involved ); and for this reason alone, one can never be perfect at least in this department; nevertheless, one can always try to reach the point of near perfection. It was a miraculous aspect in which Prophets and Messengers were trained by Allah to guide humanity.

May Allah help and guide us all to shoulder our responsibilities at all levels. Let us all come and work together once again; in spite of many differences, we still share many common points.

Peace

 

 

 



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net