Question About Islamic Economics

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Salaam O Alaikum Ummah
I have two questions for the ummah: 

Do you believe that you have to be poor or destitute in order to be a righteous Muslim?
Do you believe that is the sunnah to be poor and destitute in order to be a righteous Muslim?
I'm a former Catholic so I'm well acquainted with both extremes of the money issue within religion.  One camp preaches poverty and suffering; the other camp preaches prosperity and abudancy. Although Propserity preaching is more prevalent in Protestant Christian denominations but I'm noticing the same issues with in the American Muslim community? If you're in Europe, Canada do you notice this too? Is it in your communities as well?
I'm really shocked to find this within the Muslim community. In fact when I think of the Fiqaha and the Fiqh related to the Islamic economic system I don't understand why?
I don't believe Capitalism is the key, or the solution.  I don't believe Capitalism and democracy can co-exist either. I'm not a marxist, communist, or anarchist either but I've noticed that when I listen to the Imams in my area talk about certian subjects I really see strong parallels to the teachings of Karl Marx?
This sense of entitlement, or this sense that others are responsible for your happiness be it through money or something else is not Islamic to me. Allah in the Qur'an says " man gets what he strives for." What isn't clear about that?
What is wrong with being driven or motivated to advance economically, educationally, and politically? Why can't these goals be used as platforms for dawah, and the advancement for the overall Muslim community?
I've been accused of being:

bougie
materialistic
non-Islamic
Kafir
not loving Allah
Just because I want to focus on these areas? The whole other issue here is that, if were Muslims aren't we never supposed to put ourselves in a situation where we are in submission to the other, rather, we are to dominate the other, and not allow ourselves to be opressed? ( I'm not talking about personal power, I'm talking about the Islamic system of governance dominating the situation.) Poverty has many disadvantages and limits your possibilities in life.
Another issue is the other extreme. I look at Groups like ISNA, I see them becomming more, and more exclusive everyday. Why can't we find a balance? I recently met a sister who is transitioning off of welfare. Alhamdilal the sister earned a degree in Crimminal Justice and will be working as a police officer but she won't be wearing hijab, as a result, the people are doing what I call "cultish shunning" of her. There opinion is that she should be patient, tough it out, pray to Allah, and wait for a night and shinning armor to rescue her and her five children? Are you kidding me? The thought of it makes me laugh hysterically!   But you know the sad thing about her story is, if she did it, ( and thank God she's not) everybody would have some nasty judgement about her asking for zakkat or sadaqa? Darned if she does and darned if she doesn't.
Has anyone else observed or experienced this?
If so how did you deal with it and what were your final conclusions?
Thank you
Salaam

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UmmAminata Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 21 October 2006 Status: Offline Points: 227	Post Options Post Reply Quote UmmAminata Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Question About Islamic Economics Posted: 30 January 2007 at 5:47pm
	Salaam O Alaikum Ummah I have two questions for the ummah: Do you believe that you have to be poor or destitute in order to be a righteous Muslim? Do you believe that is the sunnah to be poor and destitute in order to be a righteous Muslim? I'm a former Catholic so I'm well acquainted with both extremes of the money issue within religion. One camp preaches poverty and suffering; the other camp preaches prosperity and abudancy. Although Propserity preaching is more prevalent in Protestant Christian denominations but I'm noticing the same issues with in the American Muslim community? If you're in Europe, Canada do you notice this too? Is it in your communities as well? I'm really shocked to find this within the Muslim community. In fact when I think of the Fiqaha and the Fiqh related to the Islamic economic system I don't understand why? I don't believe Capitalism is the key, or the solution. I don't believe Capitalism and democracy can co-exist either. I'm not a marxist, communist, or anarchist either but I've noticed that when I listen to the Imams in my area talk about certian subjects I really see strong parallels to the teachings of Karl Marx? This sense of entitlement, or this sense that others are responsible for your happiness be it through money or something else is not Islamic to me. Allah in the Qur'an says " man gets what he strives for." What isn't clear about that? What is wrong with being driven or motivated to advance economically, educationally, and politically? Why can't these goals be used as platforms for dawah, and the advancement for the overall Muslim community? I've been accused of being: bougie materialistic non-Islamic Kafir not loving Allah Just because I want to focus on these areas? The whole other issue here is that, if were Muslims aren't we never supposed to put ourselves in a situation where we are in submission to the other, rather, we are to dominate the other, and not allow ourselves to be opressed? ( I'm not talking about personal power, I'm talking about the Islamic system of governance dominating the situation.) Poverty has many disadvantages and limits your possibilities in life. Another issue is the other extreme. I look at Groups like ISNA, I see them becomming more, and more exclusive everyday. Why can't we find a balance? I recently met a sister who is transitioning off of welfare. Alhamdilal the sister earned a degree in Crimminal Justice and will be working as a police officer but she won't be wearing hijab, as a result, the people are doing what I call "cultish shunning" of her. There opinion is that she should be patient, tough it out, pray to Allah, and wait for a night and shinning armor to rescue her and her five children? Are you kidding me? The thought of it makes me laugh hysterically! But you know the sad thing about her story is, if she did it, ( and thank God she's not) everybody would have some nasty judgement about her asking for zakkat or sadaqa? Darned if she does and darned if she doesn't. Has anyone else observed or experienced this? If so how did you deal with it and what were your final conclusions? Thank you Salaam
	Mrs. Dia

UmmAminata Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 21 October 2006 Status: Offline Points: 227	Post Options Post Reply Quote UmmAminata Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 January 2007 at 5:52pm
	Please note: I'm not against giving zakkat or sadaqah. Nor am I trying to belittle or demean those with less means, in fact, I'm actually trying to convey the oppoisite message, Islam can and should be a tool that raises one's status in totality not subjugates it. Salaam
	Mrs. Dia

Hayfa Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368	Post Options Post Reply Quote Hayfa Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 31 January 2007 at 12:09am
	Salaams, a very good question, one that would be asked by a former Catholic.. lol I, myself have not really understood the economics from an Islamic perspective.. for instance.. Allah provides in adundance.. but less us say I make $500,000 US dollars but employ people are a below subsistence wage level (as is the minimum for people in the US) and does not realyl help people but works them to death but does not allow them to save or assist their relatives.. what is the responsibiliy of the rich? If I get rich off the backs of the poor.. meaning I truly am not just? Will I answer for this on the Day of Judgement? I think there is a difference between being pious, honest and caring and being greedy. Taking care of yourself and your family is an obligation in Islam. Excess and abuse is not. I actually have not heard this non-materialistic angle among Moslems. If you are given wealth then you are held accountable for what you do with it. I have actually found that Moslems sort of say about the poor "it is their fate." Maybe it is the way they say it.. that I find them less compassionate.. so I find the opposite. If I give zakat, that is all I need to do. Women are darned if they do and darned if they don't in many areas.
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

UmmAminata Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 21 October 2006 Status: Offline Points: 227	Post Options Post Reply Quote UmmAminata Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 31 January 2007 at 7:16am
	Salaam O Alaikum Hayfa How is Pakistan sister? How is the weather there by the way? Thanks for responding. "Taking care of yourself and your family is an obligation in Islam. Excess and abuse is not." Hayfa Me: "Who believe in the Ghaib [2] and perform As-Sal�t (Iq�mat-as-Sal�t), [3] and spend out of what we have provided for them [i.e. give Zak�t [4], spend on themselves, their parents, their children, their wives, etc., and also give charity to the poor and also in All�h's Cause - Jih�d, etc.].-Al-Baqarah 2:3 Your statement reminded me of this ayah from the Holy Qur'an. Here some thoughts that come to mind when I think of Allah swt commands * In the United States Single mothers and their children are the ones who live in or below the poverty line. What I could never understand is where is her family? It's pretty obvious that men are going to abdicate their responsibilities in fragile families that weren't created legitmately, but where is her family? Nobody ever steps up within her own family to help out until something tragic happens or Child Protective Custody intervenes for a reason. If this economic system laid out in the Qur'an were practiced in the U.S. it could proubably reduce 50% of women with young children living in poverty. * Elderly parents wouldn't have to rely on social sercurity and elderly people wouldn't account for a 1/4 of the homeless population in the United States. Furthermore, the society wouldn't be held responsible either. * Widows would have a fund to allocate means from. * Oprhans would have a fund to allocate means from. *By holding the family accountable for it's members it reduce the strain on the commonwealth, reduce unwanted pregnancies, and would reduce the overal poverty rate. What do you think sister?
	Mrs. Dia

aka2x2 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 12 September 2006 Status: Offline Points: 446	Post Options Post Reply Quote aka2x2 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 31 January 2007 at 7:40am
	I believe the Qur�an has many verses dealing with the subject of money and wealth. I have copied two of my favorites below. The first verse tells us to take the road of moderation; keep some money for ourselves and give some to the poor. The second verse reminds us that money is not everything. The value of human beings is not tied to their wealth. After all, Allah (SWT) gave the wealth and He can take it away. 017.029 YUSUFALI: Make not thy hand tied (like a niggard's) to thy neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach, so that thou become blameworthy and destitute. 017.030 YUSUFALI: Verily thy Lord doth provide sustenance in abundance for whom He pleaseth, and He provideth in a just measure. For He doth know and regard all His servants.
	Respectfully aka2x2

Hayfa Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368	Post Options Post Reply Quote Hayfa Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 February 2007 at 12:30am
	The weather here in Karachi is quite good. Sunny and cool at night.. it will start heating up soon. I agree that many people in the US have lost the concept of family responsibility. I think it is due to the heavy emphasis on individualism. I saw on PBS recently that parents have only a 50% chance of being taken care of by their children if they have 3 daughters and daughter-in-laws. Plus we tend to invade old people alot with too much medical care. There is reason and there is invasiveness that under normal conditions would lead to a natural death. For exapmle what do do with an eighty year old with demntia who develops cancer.. how much is too much as a society?? Moral questions. Women and Children: again the culture of individualism comes into play.. ignoring or refusing responsibilty. And if people are doing it why is their families not holding them accountable?? Would my mother ok her son doing that?? no way. I think he would be disowned.. to use a harsh tern. Yes if the world held to moslem values much, much would be improved. I agree there.
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi