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Isaiah 53 |
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Peace maker 
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Joined: 26 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 314 |
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 Posted: 02 June 2018 at 11:28pm |
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Let me refresh your mind Jesus was crucified with to two wicked men they were buried the same time with him even though it was not in the same tomb if the Quran said that Jesus did not die and raised again from the dead then the Angel Gabriel in the Quran is not Angel Gabriel in the Bible any angel would not make such a mistake and came after 600 years and say I made a huge mistake then its in anyway far to late.
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Cryptohec
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Christianity Joined: 05 February 2021 Location: Uk Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Posted: 05 February 2021 at 5:54am |
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9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,(AE) and with the rich(AF) in his death, though he had done no violence,(AG) He was originally assigned a grave with the wicked as any criminal dying on a cross would, however joseph of arthemea, after jesus he was dead. Ie “in his death - gave him the tomb of a rich man... Really very simple. One sentence making another great prophecy |
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MIAW
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Islam Joined: 17 January 2018 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 492 |
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Posted: 06 February 2021 at 2:02am |
Jesus (Peace and Blessings of Allah Be
Upon Him) was not killed, nor crucified; the Bible itself involves verses that
confirm the fact that Jesus could not have been crucified. For example, Psalm
91 implicitly indicates that Jesus could not be crucified. According to one
interpretation of Psalm 91, God says that He would save Jesus as follows: Surely
he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence. He
will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his
faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. You will not fear the terror of
night, nor the arrow that flies by day, nor the pestilence that stalks in the
darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday. A thousand may fall at your
side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. You will
only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked. If you say,
“The Lord is my refuge,” and you make the Most High your dwelling, no harm will
overtake you, no disaster will come near your tent. For he will command his
angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in
their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. You will
tread on the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the
serpent. “Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him; I will protect
him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call on me, and I will answer him; I
will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I
will satisfy him and show him my salvation.” (Psalm 91 3-16) Supposing that, according to another
interpretation, Jesus is not meant by those verses and it is believers in
general who are intended, it sounds quite reasonable that the protection God
would provide to one of His dearest prophets and messengers, who is even
presumably His Son, should have been much more considerable than that provided
to the ordinary believers. Accordingly, it is impossible that God takes such
great care of average believers but delivers His presumable Son to death. However, the dialogue between
the Devil and Jesus cited in Luke 4 proves that it is Jesus who is intended by
the above verses. In Luke 4, the Devil is quoted as citing what is written in
Psalm 91:11-12 to tempt Jesus, who, in confirmation of the ascription of those
verses to him, told the Devil that he would not have been able to tempt him
despite quoting those verses. In Luke 4, we read the following verses: For
it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in
their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot
against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not
tempt the Lord thy God. (Luke 4:10-12) Moreover, in Psalm 116, we
notice that Jesus is quoted as giving thanks to Allah for delivering him from
death. How come Christians believe in Psalm 116 as a part of the Bible though
it explicitly quotes Jesus as thanking God for saving him from death? Jesus may
thank God only if He saved him from crucifixion. If he was really killed and
crucified, for which thing did he give thanks to God? Is there rescue after
killing and death? In Psalm 116, we read the
following verses: I
love the Lord, for he heard my voice; he heard my cry for mercy. Because he
turned his ear to me, I will call on him as long as I live. The cords of death
entangled me, the anguish of the grave came over me; I was overcome by distress
and sorrow. Then I called on the name of the Lord: “Lord, save me!” The Lord is
gracious and righteous; our God is full of compassion. The Lord protects the
unwary; when I was brought low, he saved me. Return to your rest, my soul, for
the Lord has been good to you. For you, Lord, have delivered me from death, my
eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before the Lord in the
land of the living. I trusted in the Lord when I said, “I am greatly
afflicted”; in my alarm I said, “Everyone is a liar.” What shall I return to
the Lord for all his goodness to me? I will lift up the cup of salvation and
call on the name of the Lord. I will fulfill my vows to the Lord in the presence
of all his people. Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his
faithful servants. Truly I am your servant, Lord; I serve you just as my mother
did; you have freed me from my chains. I will sacrifice a thank offering to you
and call on the name of the Lord. I will fulfill my vows to the Lord in the
presence of all his people, in the courts of the house of the Lord—in your
midst, Jerusalem. Praise the Lord. (Psalm 116 1-19) Even though some commentators
on the Bible think that Jesus is not originally meant by the above verses, they
themselves do not rule out that they are also applicable to Jesus. The same
argument applies to Psalm 118, which quotes Jesus as saying: Give
thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his love endures forever. Let Israel say:
“His love endures forever.” Let the house of Aaron say: “His love endures
forever.” Let those who fear the Lord say: “His love endures forever.” When
hard pressed, I cried to the Lord; he brought me into a spacious place. The
Lord is with me; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me? The Lord
is with me; he is my helper. I look in triumph on my enemies. It is better to
take refuge in the Lord than to trust in humans. It is better to take refuge in
the Lord than to trust in princes. All the nations surrounded me, but in the
name of the Lord I cut them down. They surrounded me on every side, but in the
name of the Lord I cut them down. They swarmed around me like bees, but they
were consumed as quickly as burning thorns; in the name of the Lord I cut them
down. I was pushed back and about to fall, but the Lord helped me. The Lord is
my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation. Shouts of joy and
victory resound in the tents of the righteous: “The Lord’s right hand has done
mighty things! The Lord’s right hand is lifted high; the Lord’s right hand has
done mighty things!” I will not die but live, and will proclaim what the Lord
has done. The Lord has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to
death. Open for me the gates of the righteous; I will enter and give thanks to
the Lord. This is the gate of the Lord through which the righteous may enter. I
will give you thanks, for you answered me; you have become my
salvation. (Psalm 118 1-29) Despite all pieces of evidence
offered above confirming that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, we notice
that many Christians still argue that Jesus was crucified and claim that
all evidence offered above abounds in contradictions and errors. However, it is
the Bible which is deemed to involve many contradictions and errors, even according
to many Christians themselves. |
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Humble
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Male Christian Joined: 16 August 2021 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Posted: 16 August 2021 at 2:49am |
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Biblical hermeneutics is the study of the principles and methods of interpreting the text of the Bible. The most important law of biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible should be interpreted literally. A second crucial law of biblical hermeneutics is that passages must be interpreted historically, grammatically, and contextually. A third law of biblical hermeneutics is that Scripture is always the best interpreter of Scripture. For this reason, we always compare Scripture with Scripture when trying to determine the meaning of a passage. I gather you have read and studied the text Isaiah 52 and 53 literal but not literary and failed to apply all other hermeneutical skills. I suggest what you have researched until now, run all of this through the original biblical language, Hebrew and its grammar and syntax and literary forms and compare the text with other text in scripture and it is like a giant puzzle, that gives a larger picture. Some Bible scholars suggest there are more than 300 Old Testament prophetic Scriptures completed in the life of Jesus Christ. If you are not completely satisfied with Isaiah 52 and 53 study, the 300 prophetic references and I am sure you will not think anymore that Jesus was not the Messiah. Also, that Jesus Christ was not on the cross and has not died, I can understand from your traditions you don't believe He died and rose from the dead. But an independent secular study performed by historical evidence from extra biblical texts, so independent historical manuscript not related to scripture, and the scientific medical evidence concluded that, Jesus was the one on the cross and He died on that cross, there is testimony of a judge who said based upon all the evidence historical and scientific, it proves Jesus was on the cross and died. All other theories are false. There is so much evidence that it is impossible to claim something else. Then, Jesus proclaimed He was the son of the living God whether that He is, is up to you to believe, the son of man is a reference to the prophesy of Daniel, in the 1st century to condemn a person to death he needed to be guilty of something, the Romans couldn't find any guilt in him to condemn him to death neither the Jews, unless he proclaimed to be God, that was a capital punishment, when the high priest confronted him with accusations, Jesus said nothing, he was sitting there as an innocent Lamb, but then, they ran another accusation to him, the fact that Jesus was going around saying he was the son of God. And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?”63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65 Then, the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66 What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.”
Why was this so upsetting to the high priest, why was it blasphemy, because Jesus was quoting the reference to Son of Man in the book Of Daniel. First, we see Jesus quiet because Jesus refuses to address the lies. But it is only when Caiaphas directly asks Jesus who He says He is that Jesus responds. Jesus answers that He is the Son of Man, a figure from Daniel 7:13–14, who will sit at God's right hand and come "with the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:62). This is an act particularly associated with God, Himself. To Caiaphas, this is blasphemy. And since the members of the Sanhedrin as well as several others have heard Jesus, no more witnesses are necessary. When Jesus referred to himself in scripture, he was referring himself to the person sitting at the right hand of God. There are two major things at play here with this reference: no human can sit at the right of God, sitting at the right hand of God means a place of honor, you represent the person of who you sit before. We know no human can be in the presence of God and sitting on the right hand indicates you rule on behalf of God as a Son of someone favoured highly esteemed. So, without further explanation Jesus says with other words He is a divine figure and is the son of God. He claimed this and thus was for the high priest's blasphemy, so a ground to kill him. Whether one believes Jesus is a deity and the son of God is something that you need to believe and have faith, but God is the one who will reveal that to you. But that Jesus never claimed to be the son of God or claimed to be God is therefore false. Besides Jesus used other references to his deity too. Did He say explicitly with so many words I am the son of God, or I am God no but being the son of God, or to be God has many titles. As we have in our culture, the king could be referred to as your royal highness, majesty, monarch, etc... you don’t have to say explicitly I am king, you could say one of those other references to your sovereignty. I am a royal highness e.g., So, Jesus never explicitly said the words I am the son of God or I am God. But He constantly referred to himself with other titles referencing His deity. Whether you believe that He actually is begs the question. But claiming He never said it is false. Anyway, there is so much to study, and I suggest reading the book Seeking Allah finding Jesus. Before you believe something, study objectively and then draw a subjective conclusion. God doesn't want mindless blind believing people He could have created from the beginning. A world with robots, no He gave you a free will not to do what you want to do, because that has consequences. No, He gave humans a will to choose between good or evil, He gave one the liberty to choose between the two. The idea is that doing good is to obey God, doing evil is to disobey God. Hence, when we do not choose to obey, we do evil and hence, there is an eternal separation between God and Mankind. C.S Lewis in Mere Christianity says that the first humans were created with that possibility the choice between good or evil. We know in the end, they did the latter and now, we are all bound by it. God is an uncreated being that is in a self-sufficient state of love and the reason He created human beings was to share in this love. However, God wasn’t interested in creating a creature who would be forced to receive this love, there is no point in that, He wasn’t interested in robots. Therefore, He provides human beings with the ability to choose and be willing to accept His love and that is the only assurance and essence of true love. Hence, God has given them a will. Of course, if they would use their will the wrong way, God would of course know that could happen. But apparently, he thought it was worth the risk. But He had a plan to redeem the people and that is what the whole Bible is about, through Sin we got eternally separated from God and God set forth His plan of redemption, The whole Bible is one big Love letter to us sinful Humans, God trying to save mankind. But you have free will to look for the truth and you can ask God to show me Your truth, He will honour you.
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Niblo
Groupie 
Male Islam Joined: 01 September 2016 Location: Leeds; UK Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Posted: 27 August 2021 at 10:51am |
About sixty years ago I had an older colleague who was a Biblical Unitarian (I was a Catholic). We discussed (often) both the trinity and incarnation. On one occasion I became angry with him (I was fiery in those days!). I grabbed my Bible (KJV) and thrust it under his nose. ‘This is my Book’, I hissed. ‘What’s yours?’ He smiled, and gently removed the book from my hand. ‘This!’, he replied. I was stunned. How could this man read the very same book as I, and yet reach conclusions so opposed to my own? He was no fool; neither was he perverse. He was both genuine and honest; a decent man who lived his faith according to his conscience. And yet, he did not, could not, believe what I believed. Here is a quote by Cliff Reed, a Unitarian minister: ‘Unitarians believe that Jesus was a man, unequivocally human. It has long been our view that to talk of him as God is unfaithful to his own understanding of himself. The New Testament accounts describe a Jewish man, chosen, raised up, adopted and anointed by God. They claim that the divine purpose was that Jesus should reconcile first the Jews and then all humanity to each other and to God. This would prepare the way for the Messianic age of peace.’ (Sourced from a Unitarian website). Two groups of people read the very same scriptures. One group interprets these in a way that makes Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) a Trinity, and Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) ‘wholly God, and wholly Man’. The other group’s interpretation sees no justification for the notion of a trinity; and regards Yeshua as just a man; in no way divine. Which interpretation is correct; and what is your justification for saying so? |
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'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib)
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abuayisha
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Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Posted: 28 August 2021 at 9:09am |
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Quran, Chapter 18, Verses 1 -5.
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islamispeace wrote:
Oh come on Douggie! Your statements are pure nonsense as I already showed. Isaiah 53 presents no problems for Islam, but it does present problems for Christians, who want to believe that it refers to Jesus (pbuh), when it clearly does not. People like you only look at certain verses, out of context, and ignore the rest.