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The Great Jihad ?

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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2008 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

This example may show somehow what I am going to say in a way: You love your children and you may threaten them of the pain they may suffer from if they play with fire for example. Are you the father of prisoners in that case or a loving father? According to your experience and knowledge, you will encourage them by explaining the good consequences of good acts that you know are good for them. Are you the father of traders in that case or a loving father?
Young children are very much like prisoners of their parents.  They are given very little freedom at first, and they are under constant surveillance.  And yes, they may be punished if they disobey.
 
We need to treat them that way because as much as we love them, we know that they cannot always be trusted.  They have not yet learned to control their feelings or think long-term.  Moreover, they often do not understand the risks involved in certain seemingly innocuous behaviours.  So we set up clear (but often arbitrary) rules and penalties (e.g., "eat your peas or you don't get dessert"), easily understood and enforced.
 
Later,as our children mature and begin doing the right things because they are right instead of out of fear of getting caught, those arbitrary rules are dropped.  I would not consider punishing my adult daughter for something, even if I could.  I would simply remind her of the real reasons why her behaviour was bad  (e.g., if you don't eat your peas you won't be healthy), and leave it at that.  And I would love her just as much, whether she changed her behaviour or not, because that's what love is.
 
It seems to me that God continues to treat people as children.  Worse, actually, because to be effective, penalties must be given as soon as possible after the offense in order to change behaviour.  Telling my young daughter that she must eat her peas or I will punish her "eventually" would be worse than useless.
 
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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myahya View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote myahya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:57am

Ron: Young children are very much like prisoners of their parents.  They are given very little freedom at first, and they are under constant surveillance.  And yes, they may be punished if they disobey.

Such a young child is likely to obey only out of fear of punishment (which itself is because of their lack of understanding as you also said), but loving parents do not punish to benefit from it nor to feel better.

I would simply remind her of the real reasons why her behaviour was bad  (e.g., if you don't eat your peas you won't be healthy), and leave it at that.

In Monotheistic religions, as an example, God simply reminds people to not worship pieces of stones carved by human. He reminds them (through His prophets) that the stones are not alive and can not even defend themselves so it is a waste of time worshiping them. This is a clear simple real reason, isn�t it?

It seems to me that God continues to treat people as children.

Through His last prophet, He has completed what people need to grow otherwise He would not send His last prophet. However, in contrast to this accomplishment, it seems many people continue to refuse the truth childishly.

Worse, actually, because to be effective, penalties must be given as soon as possible after the offense in order to change behaviour.

Actually not for an intellectual being, especially when love exists. God has never punished anyone before complete reasons and evidences. There is no shortcoming from Allah�s side.



Edited by myahya - 12 November 2008 at 8:16am
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:41pm

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

In Monotheistic religions, as an example, God simply reminds people to not worship pieces of stones carved by human. He reminds them (through His prophets) that the stones are not alive and can not even defend themselves so it is a waste of time worshiping them. This is a clear simple real reason, isn�t it?

And then, much later and after it is too late for the idolators to correct their behaviour, then he roasts them in Hell for eternity.

Look, if He really doesn't want people worshipping idols, all He has to do is to make every idol burst into flames or melt into a puddle of magma the moment anyone tries to worship it.  It wouldn't take long before people got the message.  It would also be irrefutable, reproducible, scientific evidence that God exists.  As I've said before, if God really cared whether we believed in Him or not, He could do a much, much better job at getting His message out.

Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote myahya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2008 at 7:21am

Ron: And then, much later and after it is too late for the idolators to correct their behaviour, then he roasts them in Hell for eternity.

Only one of His prophet (Nuh (as)) was trying to convince them to correct their behavior for about 1000 years. After him so many prophets with miracles and clear evidences and reasons tried in different ways but those who did not want to change did not, that was that. However, who has told you that in the other world all of the idolators will be necessarily in Hell for eternity? As much as I know from Islamic opinion, eternity is not for all of those in Hell.

Look, if He really doesn't want people worshipping idols, all He has to do is to make every idol burst into flames or melt into a puddle of magma the moment anyone tries to worship it.  It wouldn't take long before people got the message.  It would also be irrefutable, reproducible, scientific evidence that God exists.  As I've said before, if God really cared whether we believed in Him or not, He could do a much, much better job at getting His message out.

I would say in such a case God had to destruct everything as people has worshiped everything from moon, sun and human to animals and other things.

Let me give you more astonishing example than melting the statue: the children of Israel saw in front of their own face and with their own eyes that the sea was split so that they could pass through the middle of the sea but afterwards they worshipped an idol again in absence of Muses (as). Same as so many similar miracles, this also proves that any other procedure (such as melting and flaming) can not guarantee changing this behavior.

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