IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Saudi women want end to driving ban  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedSaudi women want end to driving ban

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
Author
Message
Andalus View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2007 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Alwardah Alwardah wrote:

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Brother Andalus

Well there are many incidents in the history books that point to the fact that women used camels and donkeys from point A to B but the animal was lead by a male. I am sure you must have read those stories too.

What I have read is not proof that a woman cannot drive. The issue has been how far can a woman go before she needs a companion.

 

Quote

I get your point loud and clear. I am not sure whether i should post this here or under "Comments"

To date I have not found anything on the site or by these clerics that contradict with the Shariah. But what do I know, I am only touching the surface in my search of knowledge, you and the others are the experts.

This is also a strawman sister. I have never stated that the fatwa was a "contradiction", I stated that the fatwa was extremely weak employing deduction and trying to stretch a principle to such an exaggerated limit that the obvious self bias of the scholars is apparent. I am not an expert, but I know when something does not look right.

My point, once again, is that the view you gave is not the wide view, or the greater view, but is an idea that is strongly upheld in the kingdom, which is lead by an unIslamic monarchy. The larger view is that driving is not prohibited, and there is nothing conclusive in the deen that says so.

Quote As a moderator please can you clarify for me the following points:

1.      Is Islamicity Forum an Islamic site reserved for a special group of muslims.

2.      Are the views of only particular scholars accepted

3.      Are the Fatawas from only particular sites accepted.

 

As a moderator, all views are allowed (within the conext you are asking), but as a participant, I will comment on what I feel needs to be clarified. As a moderator, or as a participant, I have not rejected the fatwas you have posted. I have commented for clarification that these views are not mainstream and I simply added an aditional view held by a wider view in traditional islam that driving is not impermisseble. Something that any sound scholar will include: various views.

Quote

I need this information to decide whether to continue my membership on this forum.

Well, no one has stopped you from posting fatwas. If I gave up being moderator, and continued to comment, would it change anything? No. We will probably always disagree. I can handle that. But I cannot sit back while a fatwa goes by that excludes a lot of other information and non-Muslims read it thinking this is the way Islam actually is. I will comment when I think it is needed, but not stop you from posting. In fact, I have, as a particiapnt, let you have your say so and left you be in the past. Never as a moderator have I ever stopped you.

Quote

You know what is ironical last year about this time � actually during the first few days of Ramadan, I left a Yahoo egroup because the moderator kept rejecting the Fatawa I post from Sunnipath and Islam Online but the last straw was when she sent me very derogatory articles on some of these scholars whose Fatawa I used to submit. A year later I am facing the same decision because of similar reasons   but this time it is the other way round. I take Fatawa and knowledge from many websites. I don�t agree with some and agree with some. However I will not accept disrespect to any scholar and loathe being the cause of it. I feel that when we criticise a scholar or cleric as you call them, who quotes from the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah then we are indirectly or maybe be directly criticising  the noble teachings of the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam). I will have no part in this. Thanks! May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us from our ignorance. Ameen!

The Shia also quote from the glorious Quran and their idea of the sunnah. This does not make a difference. Some scholars fall out of line with centuries of scholarly work without a solid bases. Islam does not need "novelty", Islam needs solid methodologies for extracting information from the primary texts. If someone wants to follow some particualr Imam who has moved outside this realm, then so be it and I hope they are happy. But when someone takes a fatwa from this scholar which makes me, or my wife, or thousands of other Muslims in the wrong who are following traditional knowledge, then yes Sister, I will challenge it. Not for proving someone wrong, but for the sake of readers understanding the difference, and then it is up to them if they like what they see or do not.

It took me almost a year to figure out I was being fed "neo Salafi" material. I wish someone had pointed it to me so I would at least have had a chance to make up my mind from the beginning.

No one, not even I, have sent anything to you in a derogatory manner. I am sorry if you feel this is engaging in shiekh bashing, I call it engaging in view points and allowing others to make up their minds. 

 

Quote  

You are correct where I get my information and how I chose to live it, is my choice.

I am sure I will find a forum that accepts both views - those presented by the Wahabi Clerics and non-Wahabi clerics. I regard both as Sunni scholars and there is lot to learn from both sides.

I regard Saudi clerics as sunni also, just slightly outside of the norm in terms of fiqh and aqidah.

For me, I will take my knowledge from an appropriate source that has credentials. What are these? Well, Sunnis have their standards, but every person must figure out what their standard is.

Quote

Till I get a response and decide what to do, I will continue posting in the Kiddies Corner � Let�s try, Daily Hadith and Ayat etc.

Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

dialogue brings discussion and view points. you cannot expect me to be silent when you put our a fatwah that makes female driving impermissible, as if the fatwa is "the fatwa" and every Muslim should adhere to it. Especially when a non-believer is reading, I will comment, as a participant, and let it be known that such a notion is not strong or even common. I am sorry if you feel as if your fatwas are being rejected. They are not. Insha'Allah, in the future, I will use a different way to comment, and will try and clarify that I am acting as a participant.

assalam aleikum  

PS You do not qualify as a mindless automaton.



Edited by Andalus
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
Back to Top
mariyah View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 March 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1283
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2007 at 4:35pm
Asalaamu alaikum and Ramadan Kareem..
My purpose in posting this article was not to start issues or to criticize Saudi Arabia or its policies but to simply show that progress is being made in the area and recognition of the status of women in Islam in all parts of the world.
One thing that I have noticed in my academic studies is that Fatawas seem to vary at times according to the culture of the scholar or expert that is making it. I believe that the Saudi Shiekh was making his statement not only to his study and understanding of Sunnah, hadith and Quranic knowledge but to his own understanding of his own culture as well? Can one imagine what would happen if suddenly the Saudi government decreed that tomorrow morning all women of the kingdom could just go out and start driving? You would have mass chaos, not to mention an upside down world. Sometimes Fatawas are made with the understanding of the culture in mind. I see here the difference in the opinions of the East vs. the West in Islam, But as Sr Alwardah pointedly states, we should respect the opinions of the scholars and not be openly Critical, for Allah Subanallah Wa' taala sees all we think and do. Quietly apply what you think is relevant to your understanding and He will let us know our errors on the Last Day, of that we can be sure.
Ma Salaama
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
Back to Top
Hayfa View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Female
Joined: 07 June 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2368
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 October 2007 at 5:06am

Can one imagine what would happen if suddenly the Saudi government decreed that tomorrow morning all women of the kingdom could just go out and start driving? You would have mass chaos, not to mention an upside down world. Sometimes Fatawas are made with the understanding of the culture in mind.\

I agree with your post but not that there would suddenly be "mass chaos." I really doubt that. SA is still a conservative society. Just because a "law changed" does not mean that the overall fabric of society is immediately changed.  In Pakistan women can drove. Most do not.

I liken it to de-segregation in the us in the 1950s and 1960s. That is why people were against it. Educated people. Cause well it would "upset everything." We know it did not. The laws changed but the overall culture did not. And we still have a ways to go in this society.

I bet most women in SA will not drive for a long time. Whether it be themselves, family or their culture. In Moslem societies, women are not often alone in general. Or far, far less so then in the west.

It is interesting to watch from afar how it will change.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
Back to Top
Angela View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2555
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 October 2007 at 8:14am

Hayfa,

That is what I was trying to point out about me and my dear friend.  She's gone wild because of the restrictions put on her life and then freedoms suddenly being given.  She never learned to chose to the right path, it was always forced on her.

I do believe that hadith (not Quran) should be looked at in context, they are not the protect scripture that the Quran is...they are lessons.  However, lessons are sometimes meant for a few and change with situations.

I cannot find any hadith that forbids women from traveling short distances alone.  Nothing that says she cannot ride a horse or a camel.  Now, I do find fatwas that says she can go no more than 88 miles alone.  Or a trip lasting more than 3 days.  I will try to find those again.

Sister, the Wahhabi (Salafi) Sheiks once declared all other Muslims kafir.  Its little wonder that most Sunnis do not trust their judgements.  I would never use a Shia sheiks fatwa on a Sunni site. 

Hadith are subject to vastly different interpretations.  That is why I say that they can be for the time they were given.  These are not Revelations Alwardah. 

Revelation comes directly from God.  Its bound in his Holy books and is not changed.  Hadith are not bound into the Quran.  There are strong hadith and weak hadith. 

With absolutely no disrespect, if the Prophet (pbuh) told one man not to put his camel too closely to the gate of a woman's house.  That doesn't mean that everywhere on earth, men can't put their camels next to the gate of the house.  Perhaps he was just pointing out to the man that the woman has prize flowers growing there and the camel might eat them.  Hadith should be looked at within the realms of circumstance.

Did you see the ridiculous fatwa issued by one site that a woman should breastfeed her male coworkers to make the mahram?  Really...  was the Scholar wrong in that breastfeeding a non relative makes them mahram?  No, he was right, Hadith state this over and over.  However, is it proper to breastfeed a grown man.  NO, absolutely not.  The Hadith is clearly about fostering orphans (babies and toddlers) and making it easier on the family when those children come of age.  Its not meant for adults to get around the rules. 

My biggest issue with the fatwa you posted was the NON-hadith opinions in there.  Since when are boys more valuable than girls.  If you read that fatwa, its what it is saying.  Men are physically stronger than women, that is why they are the protectors of the home.  I won't argue that, but it doesn't make them superior, it just means they have responsibilities.

Saudi Arabia is an Island onto its self as Hayfa has pointed out.  They have gone out of their way to segragate the sexes.  They aren't segragated eslewhere.  In fact in some places, men and women cannot help but be in contact.  In a perfect world, all youth would marry when they became old enough, settle and have families and no one would have sex outside of marriage.  Men would not seek out prostitutes, beat their wives and ignore their husbandly duties.  Women's contributions to the worlds of science, literature, education and medicine would be as respected as their male counterparts and conflicts would be solved in peaceful negotiations between leaders.

Instead, we live in an imperfect world.  In three days, I can be around the world.  In 88 miles, I can get into alot of trouble.  At home, I could have a lover visit while my husband is at work.  Yet, I was taught morals and making good choices.  I traveled 2200 miles for one week to visit friends and family.  Alone.  I didn't get molested, beaten or robbed.  I didn't commit any sins.  (Well, I did tell my father to take a "chill pill" and leave me be when I was packing boxes and he felt I wasn't doing it right) In short, the chaperon is nice, but its not always necessary or convenient. 

Its not about having a minder all the time...its about making the right choices.  Hijab is about modesty, not about how little of your eyes are showing.  Mahrams are about safety and about who you can and cannot marry.  They are not about control.  Scholars are about advice, they are not the law. 

Book 41, Number 4994:

Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib:

I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: In eloquence there is magic, in knowledge ignorance, in poetry wisdom, and in speech heaviness.

Sa'sa'ah ibn Suhan said: The Prophet of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) spoke the truth. His statement "In eloquence there is magic" means: (For example), there is a right due from a man who is more eloquent in reasoning than the man who is demanding his right. He (the defendant) charms the people by his speech and takes away his right. His statement "In knowledge there is ignorance" means: A scholar brings to his knowledge what he does not know, and thus he becomes ignorant of that. His statement "In poetry there is wisdom" means: These are the sermons and examples by which people receive admonition. His statement "In speech there is heaviness" means: That you present your speech and your talk to a man who is not capable of understanding it, and who does not want it.

Book 034, Number 6465:

'Urwa b. Zubair reported that 'A'isha said to him: This news has reached me that 'Abdullah b. 'Amr al-'As would pass by us during the Hajj season, so you meet him and ask him (about religious matters) as he has acquired great knowledge from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I thus met him and asked him about things which he narrated from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). And amongst these the one he mentioned was that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Verily, Allah does not take away knowledge from people directly but he takes away the scholars and consequently takes away (knowledge) along with them and leaves amongst persons the ignorant as their leaders who deliver religious verdicts without (adequate) knowledge and themselves go astray and lead others astray. 'Urwa said: When I narrated this to 'A'isha, she deemed it too much (to believe) and thus showed reluctance to accept that (as perfectly true) and said to, 'Urwa: Did he ('Abdullah b. 'Amr) say to you that he had heard Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: ('Urwa had forgotten to ask this from 'Abdullah b. 'Amr). So when it was the next year, she ('A'isha) said to him ('Urwa): Ibn Amr has come (for Hajj), so meet him. talk to him and ask him about this hadith that he narrated to You (last year on the occasion of the Hajj) pertaining to knowledge. He ('Urwa), said: So I met him, and asked about it and he narrated to me exactly like one that he had narrated (to me) for the first time. So when I informed her ('A'isha) about that, she said: I do not think but this that he has certainly told the truth and I find that be has neither made any addition to it, nor missed anything from it.

Book 034, Number 6462:

'Abdullah b. 'Amr b. al-'As reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily, Allah does nit take away knowledge by snatching it from the people but Re takes away knowledge by taking away the scholars, so that when He leaves no learned person, people turn to ignorant as their, leaders; then they are asked to deliver religious verdicts and they deliver them without knowledge, they go astray, and lead others astray.

 

 



Edited by Angela
Back to Top
peacemaker View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Male
Joined: 29 December 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3057
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2007 at 10:37am

Assaalamu Alaikum,

As a participant:

Islam doesn�t prohibit women driving.

At the same time, the international focus on Saudi women�s issues erroneously promote an impression that women in the kingdom are oppressed; nothing is further from the truth. After living many years there, I noticed that women in the kingdom are one of the most blessed human beings on the planet. Many of them are professionals, university professors, doctors, researchers, and are very happy and satisfied with their conditions. They are not "oppressed" as media would frequently label them.

There are also those women who would want to secure their rights to drive. Islamically speaking, they should be given those rights, and most of the scholars agree that Islam doesn�t prevent women from driving. Yes, changes are happening there, and changes normally take time. There is always room for improvement. Changes should happen from within without any external influence. We have already been informed that Afghan women had to be "liberated." Now Iranian women need to be "liberated." And this goes on. . . .

May Allah guide us all.

Now as a moderator:

Everyone, no offense is intended to anyone. Please do understand that once a thread is moved to intrafaith section, rules of this ( intrafaith ) section would apply where Muslims, who may or may not belong to a sect, discuss issues of sectarian nature.

Non-Muslims are welcome to discuss Islam in "Islam for non-Muslim" section or take part in dialogue in "Interfaith section." They may also use other means such as searching other threads at the forum or PM fellow participants or moderators to clarify their doubts about any matter.

Peace

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.