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Identifying the Book of Truth

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Mansoor_ali View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mansoor_ali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2009 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth Shibboleth wrote:

Ali says; That is exactly what Muslims say. No one has produced the original form of the gospel revealed to Jesus Christ.

 
 Yes you have no ORIGINAL manuscripts and we challenge you to produce SINGLE copy.Further your own christian scholars and theologians admit it:
 
 "Christians readily admit, however, that there have been 'scribal errors' in the copies of the Old and New Testament. It is beyond the capability of anyone to avoid any and every slip of the pen in copying page after page from any book, sacred or secular. Yet we may be sure that the original manuscript (better known as autograph) of each book of the Bible, being directly inspired by God, was free from all error. Those originals, however, because of the early date of their inception no longer exist."
 
 "Because we are dealing with accounts which were written thousands of years ago, we would not expect to have the originals in our possession today, as they would have disintegrated long ago. We are therefore dependent on the copies taken from copies of those originals, which were in turn continually copied out over a period of centuries. Those who did the copying were prone to making two types of scribal errors. One concerned the spelling of proper names, and the other had to do with numbers."

 "Most Christians will affirm that the Bible is our rule of faith and practice. It is a little self contradictory to stand in the pulpit and say the word of God is inspired, when in his heart the pastor knows he is not referring to any book here on this earth that people can hold in their hands and believe. He really should say what he believes - that the word of God WAS inspired at one time but we no longer have it, so the best we can do is hope we have a close approximation of what God probably meant to tell us." 

 "It also seems a bit inconsistent to say he believes the originals were inspired, when he has never seen them, they never were together in one single book and they no longer exist anyway. How does he know they were inspired? He accepts this by faith. Yet he seems to lack the faith to actually believe that God could do exactly what He said He would do with His words. God said He would preserve them and that heaven and earth would pass away but His words would not pass away."(Source)

 

Originally posted by Shibboleth Shibboleth wrote:

Wow! I guess Muhammad threw the angel Gabriel didn�t have access to it. Do you hear yourself?

 

How in the world can MUHAMMADAN followers discredit something that cannot be proven corrupted but what the QURAN or Muhammad confirms?

 
 Muslims not 'MUHAMMADAN'
 
 Here i like to correct your mistake regarding the word MUHAMMADAN.Since Jesus� religion, and that of all of the earlier prophets, was the religion of submission to God, known in Arabic as Islaam, his true followers should be called submitters to God, known in Arabic as Muslims. In Islaam, prayer is considered an act of worship. Prophet Muhammad (e) was reported to have said, �Supplication is an act of worship.Consequently, Muslims do not accept being called Mohammedans, as followers of Christ are called Christians and followers of Buddha are called Buddhists. Christians worship Christ and Buddhists worship Buddha. The term Mohammedans implies that Muslims worship Muhammad, which is not the case at all. In the Qur�aan, God chose the name Muslim for all who truly follow the prophets. The name Muslim in Arabic means �one who submits to the will of God.�
 
 �...It is He who named you Muslims both before and in this [scripture, the Qur�aan].� Qur�aan, (22):78

 

Originally posted by Shibboleth Shibboleth wrote:

Wow! You guys are really back-stroking, blowing in the wind. I guess the new followers have the �uncorrupted� version while Muhammad and his followers had the �corrupted� version.

 

Did Muhammad have the uncorrupted or corrupted version of the torah and psalms and gospel when he recited, be careful now?

 

Hint: If, at the time the Qur'an were written, and the Holy Word had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel �judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein�?

 

P.S. Still trying to put the egg before the chicken, it�s IMPOSSIBLE! But nonetheless I�ll wait for your answer to my above question.

 
 

Chapter 5 Verses 46 � 48

And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Taking verse 46 into consideration we see that Allah (swt) only talks about Jesus (pbuh) being sent as a prophet. This verse itself does not prove that the Bible is uncorrupted. However the Christian missionaries say that they have same Torah today as it was during the time of Jesus and the evidence they give is the existence of the �Septuagint�. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

�The three most celebrated manuscripts of the Septuagint known are the Vatican, "Codex Vaticanus" (fourth century); the Alexandrian, "Codex Alexandrinus" (fifth century), now in the British Museum, London; and that of Sinai, "Codex Sinaiticus" (fourth century), found by Tischendorf in the convent of St. Catherine, on Mount Sinai, in 1844 and 1849, now part at Leipzig and in part in St. Petersburg; they are all written in uncials.�

Hence we see that the Septuagint today is not from during the time of Jesus. The earliest manuscript dates to the fourth century some 300 years after Jesus. Thus no Christian can claim that the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers) which they have today in the Bible is the same as to what was present in the Septuagint during the time of Jesus.

Now in verse 47 we find that the verse says �let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein�. Any person having the slightest comprehension skills would be able to tell that the verse is talking about what Allah (swt) has revealed in the Gospel � not the entire Bible. However if we take into consideration that the verse is referring to the Bible, even so the verse talks of letting them judge according to what Allah (swt) has revealed and not according to the corruption made by man.

Now if the Quran meant to preach that the Bible which the Christians hold in their hands is pure from corruption then it would have said �let the Christians judge by the Gospel� (or �Bible� � whichever of the two words; it does not matter in the present context). However notice that the verse does not state that but says �judge by what Allah hath revealed therein�. In other words do not judge by what the human hands have written but only by what Allah (swt) has revealed.

The key to these two verses rests in the next verse i.e. verse 48. In this verse we can see that Allah (swt) states that the Quran is sent in truth, confirming that what came before it and guarding it in safety. The Arabic word used here is �Muhaymin� which means �Guardian�, �Protector� and �Trustworthy�. According to Al-Mawrid Arabic to English dictionary the word means �dominant, dominating, predominant, preponderant, prevailing, controlling, commanding, governing, reigning, ruling; (absolute) master, ruler, overlord� � [Al Mawrid Arabic to English Dictionary pg. 1135].

Allah (swt) thus says that the Quran is a guardian over the previous scriptures. It is guarding them. What is it guarding it against? It is guarding it from the corruptions that the human hands have done in the Bible. It is correcting the corruptions made in the Bible and thus protecting it. The role of a guardian is to guide and correct the errors.

Many Christian missionaries falsely claim that �muhaymin� was understood by Muslims of the past and present to mean that the Bible in the form it was in those days was uncorrupted. We will check some of the sources of the past and present to see whether they really believed the Bible in those days to be uncorrupted.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

�(and Muhayminan over it) means entrusted over it, according to Sufyan Ath-Thawri who narrated it from Abu Ishaq from At-Tamimi from Ibn `Abbas. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Muhaymin is, �the Trustworthy�. Allah says that the Quran is trustworthy over every Divine Book that preceded it.'' This was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b, `Atiyyah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd. Ibn Jarir said, "The Quran is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Quran is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Al-Walibi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, �Witness�. Mujahid, Qatadah and As-Suddi said the same. Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, �dominant over the previous Scriptures�. These meanings are similar, as the word Muhaymin includes them all. Consequently, the Quran is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Quran includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures.�

Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas:

�(And unto the have We revealed the Scripture) We have sent you Gabriel with the Qur'an (with the Truth) to make plain the Truth and falsehood, (confirming) the statement of Allah's divine Oneness and some laws (whatever Scripture was before it) whatever Scriptures were before it, (and a watcher over it) a witness upon all the Scriptures before it; it is also said: a witness upon the ruling of stoning; and it is also said: a watcher over all previous Scriptures.�

It is thus seen that Allah (swt) has kept the Quran as a guardian over the previous scriptures so as to guard what was revealed originally thus showing to us that which is corruption in the Bible.

I will now quote some of the Muslims of the present times to see whether they understand that this verse states that the Bible was uncorrupted or that is got corrupted overtime.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali:

�After the corruption of the older revelation, the Quran comes with a twofold purpose: (1) to confirm the true and original Message and (2) to guard it or act as a check to its interpretation. The Arabic word �Muhaymin� is very comprehensive in meaning. It means one who safeguards, watches over, stands witness, preserves and upholds. The Quran safeguards �the Book�, for it has preserved within it the teachings of all the former Books. It watches over these Books in the sense that it corroborates the Word of Allah which has remained intact in them. It stands as a witness because it bears testimony to the Word of Allah contained in these Books and helps to sort it out from the interpretations and commentaries of the people which were mixed with it; what is confirmed by the Quran is the Word of Allah and what is against it is that of the people.

Muhammad Asad (His translation is often quoted by Christian missionaries):

�The participle �muhaymin� is derived from the quadrilateral verb �haymana�, �he watched [over a thing]� or �controlled [it]�, and is used here to describe the Quran as the determinant factor in deciding what is genuine and what is false in the earlier Scriptures.�

Maariful Quran:

�The address is to the Holy Prophet (saw) saying that to him Allah has revealed the Quran which confirms the Torah and Injeel, Books previous to it, and is their custodian as well. This is because, after the people of the Torah altered the Torah and the people of the Injeel made changes in the Injeel, it was the Quran alone which turned out to be the kind overseer and protector which exposed the alterations made by them, lit up truth and reality in their proper perspective. Even today the true teachings of the Torah and Injeel still survive through the Quran.�

So we see the whether we look at the Muslims of the past or the present, they understood the term �muhaymin� to mean the same and the interpretation of the verse has always been the same without any changes.

Some Christian missionaries bring to notice that one of the names of Allah (swt) is �AL-MUHAYMIN�. So let us see whether the meaning and explanation of the word �muhaymin� fits with harmony in both the verse and as one of the attributes of Allah (swt).

Muhaymin, according to early Muslims as taken from Ibn Kathir, means the following: Witness and Trustworthy. This word also means �Guardian�, �Supervisor� or �Protector�. Now do these fit Allah (swt) and the verse in harmony? Yes!

Allah (swt) is our Guardian and hence has given us guidelines to correct ourselves just the way the Quran is the guardian over the Bible, correcting it. Allah (swt) is the Protector and has given us a way to protect ourselves by correcting our mistakes just as the way the Quran corrects the Bible in order to protect what was revealed in the previous scriptures. Allah (swt) is Witness to all that is being done just like the Quran is a witness to the changes made in the Bible thus correcting them.

Hence we see that the definition fits perfectly to Allah (swt) as well as the Quran thus refuting any claims that would suggest otherwise. The Quran is now a guardian over what was revealed before and thus people can learn the truth in the previous scriptures by looking at those parts which the Quran confirms and those which the Quran rejects.(Source)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shibboleth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2009 at 12:50pm
Ali says ""Yes you have no ORIGINAL manuscripts and we challenge you to produce SINGLE copy.Further your own christian scholars and theologians admit it:""

You haven't answered my question.........
Did Muhammad have the uncorrupted or corrupted version of the torah and psalms and gospel when it was revieled to him, that's all I'm asking?

Once you have answered the question, you would have received your answer. All this dancing around and you still haven�t answered the QUESTION, one little question. It's really not a hard question. I suspect it's the TRUTH that puts the fear in your hearts

Sign *Truth


�If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.� (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al �Imran: 84-85)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2009 at 1:30am
Shibboleth: why do you come here and insult people by calling them "Mohammedans"? We do not call our selves this? Its like if you are a "Jehovah Witness" by your own self-definition, we don't insult you and use another title?  Can you show SOME respect to other human beings that "Jehovah" created?

Did Muhammad have the uncorrupted or corrupted version of the torah and psalms and gospel when it was revieled to him, that's all I'm asking?

What true difference does it make? There is no 'fear' on anyone's heart here... may of us left Christianity.. so there is no fear.. we know the Truth- The Haqq- There is no God by God and Mohammed is the Messenger of God.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mansoor_ali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2009 at 7:33am
Originally posted by Shibboleth Shibboleth wrote:

Ali says ""Yes you have no ORIGINAL manuscripts and we challenge you to produce SINGLE copy.Further your own christian scholars and theologians admit it:""

You haven't answered my question.........
Did Muhammad have the uncorrupted or corrupted version of the torah and psalms and gospel when it was revieled to him, that's all I'm asking?

Once you have answered the question, you would have received your answer. All this dancing around and you still haven�t answered the QUESTION, one little question. It's really not a hard question. I suspect it's the TRUTH that puts the fear in your hearts

Sign *Truth


 
 I have already replied it but you are careless person so i donot care.
 
 Further you didnot address my challenge why you cannot produce a SINGLE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT?
 
 I am not going to follow your so-called Bible whose most authors are UNKNOWN according to your own source
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