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islamispeace 
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 Posted: 22 July 2007 at 1:01pm |
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Hi Aspiration,
Thank you for your explanation. Of course, I still find it rather confusing. You have confirmed that the Bible was not written until many years after Jesus, and hence no scripture existed in the early years of Christianity, even in parts. So, the story of Jesus was apparently preserved and spread verbatim. This story, you maintain, was passed along a chain of the "Apostolic fathers." OK. This sounds like the Hadiths in Islam, the prophetic traditions. But was this chain unbroken, as it was with the transmission of the Hadiths? Do you know who passed it through the years, from person to person?
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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buddyman
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Posted: 23 July 2007 at 12:58pm |
 Andalus wrote:
buddyman wrote:
God Manifested in Nature
Though there is nothing in this world that adequately illustrates God, Paul declares the �invisible things of him from the creation of the world� can help us understand �his eternal power and Godhead� (Romans 1:20). The truth that God is a �tri-unity� of two invisible persons (Father and Spirit) and one visible person (Jesus) is evident even in creation.
The universe is composed of three structures: space, matter, and time. Of these three, only matter is visible. Space requires length, height, and width to constitute space. Each dimension is separate and distinct in itself, yet the three form space�if you remove height, you no longer have space. Time is also a tri-unity of past, present, and future. Two are invisible (past and future), and one visible (present). Each is separate and distinct, as well as essential for time to exist. Man is also a �tri-unity,� having physical, mental, and spiritual components. Again, two are invisible (mental and spiritual) and one visible (physical). Cells compose the fundamental structural unit of all living organisms. All organic life is made up from cells that consist of three primary parts: the outer wall, the cytoplasm, and the nucleus (like the shell, white, and yoke of an egg). If any one is removed, the cell dies.
In each of these examples, the removal of any one component results in the demise of the whole. In like manner, the Godhead contains three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is God (Ephesians 4:6; Titus 2:13; Acts 5:3, 4), yet there is one God. The removal of one person destroys the unity of the whole.
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Your examples have proven an age old heresy of your church: modalism. There is nothing in nature that actually corresponds to the trinity, which is why your doctors have focused a great deal of effort writing volumes and volumes of work trying to explain why god should be a trinity more than how god actually is a trinity.
PS Modalism is a heresy that goes against the trinity.
Even the gospel story illustrates the interdependency of threes. The sanctuary had three places: the Courtyard, the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place. There are three stages of salvation: justification, sanctification, and glorification. In Isaiah 6:3, the angels around God�s throne cry �Holy, Holy, Holy� three times�once for the Father, once for the Son, and once for the Holy Spirit.
When you read this you have to get a whole description of God. God tells us who He is through out the entire Bible. That is why I urge you to read it.
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I have read the bible, and I have already given you my objections and arguments on at least two of the main prophecy evidences used by your faith, and you have simply brushed these off with, "you need to read the whole bible", or, "you just do not understand".
With all due respect, taking into account the lack of your own "work", and the use of extremely low level sources to make your claims, I have to conclude that you do not know your bible very well, nor do you understand the more complicated theological ideas, if you did, you would be able to discuss your claims on a very different level.
kindest regards
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I don't believe I posted everything yet 
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Andalus
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Posted: 23 July 2007 at 8:14pm |
buddyman wrote:
Andalus wrote:
buddyman wrote:
God Manifested in Nature
Though there is nothing in this world that adequately illustrates God, Paul declares the �invisible things of him from the creation of the world� can help us understand �his eternal power and Godhead� (Romans 1:20). The truth that God is a �tri-unity� of two invisible persons (Father and Spirit) and one visible person (Jesus) is evident even in creation.
The universe is composed of three structures: space, matter, and time. Of these three, only matter is visible. Space requires length, height, and width to constitute space. Each dimension is separate and distinct in itself, yet the three form space�if you remove height, you no longer have space. Time is also a tri-unity of past, present, and future. Two are invisible (past and future), and one visible (present). Each is separate and distinct, as well as essential for time to exist. Man is also a �tri-unity,� having physical, mental, and spiritual components. Again, two are invisible (mental and spiritual) and one visible (physical). Cells compose the fundamental structural unit of all living organisms. All organic life is made up from cells that consist of three primary parts: the outer wall, the cytoplasm, and the nucleus (like the shell, white, and yoke of an egg). If any one is removed, the cell dies.
In each of these examples, the removal of any one component results in the demise of the whole. In like manner, the Godhead contains three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is God (Ephesians 4:6; Titus 2:13; Acts 5:3, 4), yet there is one God. The removal of one person destroys the unity of the whole.
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Your examples have proven an age old heresy of your church: modalism. There is nothing in nature that actually corresponds to the trinity, which is why your doctors have focused a great deal of effort writing volumes and volumes of work trying to explain why god should be a trinity more than how god actually is a trinity.
PS Modalism is a heresy that goes against the trinity.
Even the gospel story illustrates the interdependency of threes. The sanctuary had three places: the Courtyard, the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place. There are three stages of salvation: justification, sanctification, and glorification. In Isaiah 6:3, the angels around God�s throne cry �Holy, Holy, Holy� three times�once for the Father, once for the Son, and once for the Holy Spirit.
When you read this you have to get a whole description of God. God tells us who He is through out the entire Bible. That is why I urge you to read it.
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I have read the bible, and I have already given you my objections and arguments on at least two of the main prophecy evidences used by your faith, and you have simply brushed these off with, "you need to read the whole bible", or, "you just do not understand".
With all due respect, taking into account the lack of your own "work", and the use of extremely low level sources to make your claims, I have to conclude that you do not know your bible very well, nor do you understand the more complicated theological ideas, if you did, you would be able to discuss your claims on a very different level.
kindest regards
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I don't believe I posted everything yet
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And then what? Lets look at your original copy and paste. Either what you wrote had problems, or did not have problems. I showed the problems as did others. Now, the only thing you can add is either an agreement that you made an error or material that further tries to assert that your error is true. You cannot copy and paste your way out of problems.
regards
Edited by Andalus
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Andalus
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Posted: 23 July 2007 at 8:24pm |
Israfil wrote:
But in actuality brother Andalus Monarch Modalism is apart of the Christian theology although it remains subtle in its current form now. I remember doing a 20 page paper in my Medieval Philosophy course on Peter Abelard who fused the philosophical thought of Saballianism (i.e. Monarch Modalism) with Aristotlian thought.
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Assalam aleikum Br.
I was not aware that modalism is still a part of Christian theology. I thought the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics refuted the work enough so to show a difference between the trinity as opposed to their view of "modalism".
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Like you said brother Andalus the biggest problem was as you said:
explain why god should be a trinity more than how god actually is a trinity.
The problem with Buddyman's position is he is saying "God is in nature" is the wrong approach. That would be Pan-tri-theism" like God is everything in three. That is illogical. Ascribing God as a hylomorphic compound in asymmetrical fashion is a blasphemous attempt to prove trinity.
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Indeed! Enjoyed your comments as always.
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Israfil
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Posted: 24 July 2007 at 1:08am |
Wa alaikum Salaam brother Andalus,
Yes Monarch Modalism is in some ways as expressed in Medieval Philosophy (and recycled now into its present philosophy) is in subtle form apart of Christian theology of the Trinity. Of course that is another thread but I enjoy your philosophical dialogue with Buddyman and the others but I pity them since, they are not in your class.
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buddyman
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Posted: 24 July 2007 at 9:14am |
Andalus wrote:
buddyman wrote:
God Manifested in Nature
Though there is nothing in this world that adequately illustrates God, Paul declares the �invisible things of him from the creation of the world� can help us understand �his eternal power and Godhead� (Romans 1:20). The truth that God is a �tri-unity� of two invisible persons (Father and Spirit) and one visible person (Jesus) is evident even in creation.
The universe is composed of three structures: space, matter, and time. Of these three, only matter is visible. Space requires length, height, and width to constitute space. Each dimension is separate and distinct in itself, yet the three form space�if you remove height, you no longer have space. Time is also a tri-unity of past, present, and future. Two are invisible (past and future), and one visible (present). Each is separate and distinct, as well as essential for time to exist. Man is also a �tri-unity,� having physical, mental, and spiritual components. Again, two are invisible (mental and spiritual) and one visible (physical). Cells compose the fundamental structural unit of all living organisms. All organic life is made up from cells that consist of three primary parts: the outer wall, the cytoplasm, and the nucleus (like the shell, white, and yoke of an egg). If any one is removed, the cell dies.
In each of these examples, the removal of any one component results in the demise of the whole. In like manner, the Godhead contains three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is God (Ephesians 4:6; Titus 2:13; Acts 5:3, 4), yet there is one God. The removal of one person destroys the unity of the whole.
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Your examples have proven an age old heresy of your church: modalism. There is nothing in nature that actually corresponds to the trinity, which is why your doctors have focused a great deal of effort writing volumes and volumes of work trying to explain why god should be a trinity more than how god actually is a trinity.
PS Modalism is a heresy that goes against the trinity.
Even the gospel story illustrates the interdependency of threes. The sanctuary had three places: the Courtyard, the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place. There are three stages of salvation: justification, sanctification, and glorification. In Isaiah 6:3, the angels around God�s throne cry �Holy, Holy, Holy� three times�once for the Father, once for the Son, and once for the Holy Spirit.
When you read this you have to get a whole description of God. God tells us who He is through out the entire Bible. That is why I urge you to read it.
|
I have read the bible, and I have already given you my objections and arguments on at least two of the main prophecy evidences used by your faith, and you have simply brushed these off with, "you need to read the whole bible", or, "you just do not understand".
With all due respect, taking into account the lack of your own "work", and the use of extremely low level sources to make your claims, I have to conclude that you do not know your bible very well, nor do you understand the more complicated theological ideas, if you did, you would be able to discuss your claims on a very different level.
kindest regards
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I don't believe you have read the Bible. No offense seriously, but I don't believe you.
As for my post, I have told you I'm at work, I don't have my Bible with me or my notes, but I will make time to post my interpretation of the Book of Daniel like I said I would.
Have a good day!
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buddyman
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Posted: 24 July 2007 at 9:17am |
Andalus wrote:
buddyman wrote:
Andalus wrote:
buddyman wrote:
God Manifested in Nature
Though there is nothing in this world that adequately illustrates God, Paul declares the �invisible things of him from the creation of the world� can help us understand �his eternal power and Godhead� (Romans 1:20). The truth that God is a �tri-unity� of two invisible persons (Father and Spirit) and one visible person (Jesus) is evident even in creation.
The universe is composed of three structures: space, matter, and time. Of these three, only matter is visible. Space requires length, height, and width to constitute space. Each dimension is separate and distinct in itself, yet the three form space�if you remove height, you no longer have space. Time is also a tri-unity of past, present, and future. Two are invisible (past and future), and one visible (present). Each is separate and distinct, as well as essential for time to exist. Man is also a �tri-unity,� having physical, mental, and spiritual components. Again, two are invisible (mental and spiritual) and one visible (physical). Cells compose the fundamental structural unit of all living organisms. All organic life is made up from cells that consist of three primary parts: the outer wall, the cytoplasm, and the nucleus (like the shell, white, and yoke of an egg). If any one is removed, the cell dies.
In each of these examples, the removal of any one component results in the demise of the whole. In like manner, the Godhead contains three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is God (Ephesians 4:6; Titus 2:13; Acts 5:3, 4), yet there is one God. The removal of one person destroys the unity of the whole.
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Your examples have proven an age old heresy of your church: modalism. There is nothing in nature that actually corresponds to the trinity, which is why your doctors have focused a great deal of effort writing volumes and volumes of work trying to explain why god should be a trinity more than how god actually is a trinity.
PS Modalism is a heresy that goes against the trinity.
Even the gospel story illustrates the interdependency of threes. The sanctuary had three places: the Courtyard, the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place. There are three stages of salvation: justification, sanctification, and glorification. In Isaiah 6:3, the angels around God�s throne cry �Holy, Holy, Holy� three times�once for the Father, once for the Son, and once for the Holy Spirit.
When you read this you have to get a whole description of God. God tells us who He is through out the entire Bible. That is why I urge you to read it.
|
I have read the bible, and I have already given you my objections and arguments on at least two of the main prophecy evidences used by your faith, and you have simply brushed these off with, "you need to read the whole bible", or, "you just do not understand".
With all due respect, taking into account the lack of your own "work", and the use of extremely low level sources to make your claims, I have to conclude that you do not know your bible very well, nor do you understand the more complicated theological ideas, if you did, you would be able to discuss your claims on a very different level.
kindest regards
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I don't believe I posted everything yet
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And then what? Lets look at your original copy and paste. Either what you wrote had problems, or did not have problems. I showed the problems as did others. Now, the only thing you can add is either an agreement that you made an error or material that further tries to assert that your error is true. You cannot copy and paste your way out of problems.
regards
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Funny you mention copy and pasting. I saw that you had copied and pasted on another thread, but I guess thats ok
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Andalus
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Posted: 24 July 2007 at 11:42am |
buddyman wrote:
Andalus wrote:
buddyman wrote:
Andalus wrote:
buddyman wrote:
God Manifested in Nature
Though there is nothing in this world that adequately illustrates God, Paul declares the �invisible things of him from the creation of the world� can help us understand �his eternal power and Godhead� (Romans 1:20). The truth that God is a �tri-unity� of two invisible persons (Father and Spirit) and one visible person (Jesus) is evident even in creation.
The universe is composed of three structures: space, matter, and time. Of these three, only matter is visible. Space requires length, height, and width to constitute space. Each dimension is separate and distinct in itself, yet the three form space�if you remove height, you no longer have space. Time is also a tri-unity of past, present, and future. Two are invisible (past and future), and one visible (present). Each is separate and distinct, as well as essential for time to exist. Man is also a �tri-unity,� having physical, mental, and spiritual components. Again, two are invisible (mental and spiritual) and one visible (physical). Cells compose the fundamental structural unit of all living organisms. All organic life is made up from cells that consist of three primary parts: the outer wall, the cytoplasm, and the nucleus (like the shell, white, and yoke of an egg). If any one is removed, the cell dies.
In each of these examples, the removal of any one component results in the demise of the whole. In like manner, the Godhead contains three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is God (Ephesians 4:6; Titus 2:13; Acts 5:3, 4), yet there is one God. The removal of one person destroys the unity of the whole.
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Your examples have proven an age old heresy of your church: modalism. There is nothing in nature that actually corresponds to the trinity, which is why your doctors have focused a great deal of effort writing volumes and volumes of work trying to explain why god should be a trinity more than how god actually is a trinity.
PS Modalism is a heresy that goes against the trinity.
Even the gospel story illustrates the interdependency of threes. The sanctuary had three places: the Courtyard, the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place. There are three stages of salvation: justification, sanctification, and glorification. In Isaiah 6:3, the angels around God�s throne cry �Holy, Holy, Holy� three times�once for the Father, once for the Son, and once for the Holy Spirit.
When you read this you have to get a whole description of God. God tells us who He is through out the entire Bible. That is why I urge you to read it.
|
I have read the bible, and I have already given you my objections and arguments on at least two of the main prophecy evidences used by your faith, and you have simply brushed these off with, "you need to read the whole bible", or, "you just do not understand".
With all due respect, taking into account the lack of your own "work", and the use of extremely low level sources to make your claims, I have to conclude that you do not know your bible very well, nor do you understand the more complicated theological ideas, if you did, you would be able to discuss your claims on a very different level.
kindest regards
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I don't believe I posted everything yet
|
And then what? Lets look at your original copy and paste. Either what you wrote had problems, or did not have problems. I showed the problems as did others. Now, the only thing you can add is either an agreement that you made an error or material that further tries to assert that your error is true. You cannot copy and paste your way out of problems.
regards
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Funny you mention copy and pasting. I saw that you had copied and pasted on another thread, but I guess thats ok
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Buddyman, either you are obtuse or you are puprosely trying to play difficult by equating an act within "reasonable" bounds, in contrast to an act that exceeds "reasonable" boundaries to the point where it is "unreasonable".
1) No one has said that you cannot "copy and paste" at all, or use material from the works of others. Using references, and pasting material in support of an argument is "reasonable". Allowing "copy and paste" material to represent 80 to 90% of what you think or beieve is "unreasonable". Using that same work to support your views is "reasonable".
2) Copy and pasting material to read, and for discussion is reasonable. 80% of a person's contributions that are made of purely "copy and paste" material, including repeating the material in other threads, is "unreasonable".
3) Copy and pasting work to discuss is reasonable. A pattern of ignoring people when they engage your material after they take the time to read it is "unreasonable".
4) Using copy and pasted material, with only, "I agree, because...."copy and pasted material"", or "I disagree, because, "copy and pasted material". This is "unreasonable". We are not here to refute our personally favorite websites, this is a discussion forum. If you find that the majority of your contribution requires people to constantly read and refute someone elses work, not that of the contributor, then common sense dictates that it is "unreasonable".
I hope this clears things up.
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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