Quran and Hadith

minuteman wrote:    It would have been better if the exact narrations were posted, just a few of them. No need to make a flying reference to a lot of them. It is known that stoning of Muslims was also done in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s.

It (the evidence of mass narration) was the point, not that rajm was used. The point was that rajm was an act that was followed and the proof is the nature of the hadiths (mutawatir).

But the proof is required that it was practiced after the departure of the prophet or after Surah Noor was revealed..

Surah An-Noor does not distinguish between a married adulterer  or a single forinicator, neither does Surah An-noor state that it abrogates the "some other way for them" in 4:15. Furthermore, the same narrative where we find the "some other way" also gives the punishement found in Surah An-noor but for non-married Muslims.

I am repasting the narrative (which has a sound chain).

'Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "WHen the revelation descended upon the Messenger of Allah (saw), it would affect him and his face would show signs of strain. One day, Allah sent down a revelation to him, and when the Messenger (saw) was relieved of its strain, he said, "Take from me: Allah has made some other way for them [this is in reference to Surah 4:15]. The married with the married, the unmarried with the unmarried. The married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death, while the unmarried gets a hundred lashes then banishment for a year.""

(recorded by Imam Ahmed 5:317)

Keep in mind that the punishment found in Surah An-noor is mentioned in this hadith.

We remember a case of the son of Hazrat Umar who fornicated and he was punished with 100 lashes. Even though it may not be all true. But it is said that the son died after about 50 lashes. So Hazrat Umar ordered the rest of the 50 lashes to be hit on his grave.

 I stated some principle that the matters of seriousness such as dealing with life and death cannot be decided only on the basis of Hadith. Proof for them must come from Quran. That is the opinion of the learned Ulema.

Keeping that in the mind, I do not see even a word about stoning an adulterer in the Quran. And it is a matter of life and death. So what I am to do?? The principle that I have stated is not from me. It is from a well known Muslim scholar of Indo/Pakistan. He says that the matters affecting life and death cannot be decided by the Hadith alone. Proof for them must come from the Quran.

I believe that he was right.

So many cases of stoning have been mentioned in the previous posts. I have read them, there is a reference (short) only and a long list. I am interested in knowing some more Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim with exact words please. If there is any Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim stating in the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. That a married fornicator must be put to death by stoning then it will make it all the more easy for to understand this subject.

Those Hadith should be related to the time of the prophet. I know that Rajam was practiced in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. But I know thatthe prophet s.a.w.s. used to pray facing Jeroshlem too. There was no clear order for that but he used to do it. Similarly, there was no special order to stone a fornicator to death but he used to do it.

After he was told to face the Qiblah (Ka'abah), he never even one day faced the Jeroshlem for daily prayers. Similarly, after the order of 100 lashes for the adulteres in Suran Noor, we need to know the practice of the holy prophet s.a.w.s. as to what he did in the case of adulteres who were not involved in any other crime.

Also, if it is proved that stoning was in practice during the time of the great Khulafa, then that would be additional proof in favor of stoning. Please search and provide the material.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Hi angela

Angela wrote: I guess, you see my confusions.  Hadiths gathered from different incidents would lead me to believe that stoning is unislamic.  It goes against repentance, mercy and submission.

I am sure you know we dont just take this world as our only hope of mercy. We have an overview of both worlds to see what is beneficial for us. As you have read many ahadith about mercy of our Lord and mercy shown by Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam, you must have also read ahadith which mention that a repentant person who face earthly punishment will inshaAllah be admitted into paradise. There are ahadith which mention that if a person has not faced punishment in this world then its upto Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to forgive him or punish him in hereafter. Majority of muslims would go for the option of recieving punishment in this world as it is part of asking for forgiveness as in this hadith,

Book 38, Number 4426:

Narrated Imran ibn Husayn:

A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian.

Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was stoned to death. He commanded the people (to pray) and they prayed over her.

Thereupon Umar said: Are you praying over her, Apostle of Allah, when she has committed fornication?

He said: By Him in Whose hand my soul is, she has repented to such an extent that if it were divided among the seventy people of Medina, it would have been enough for them all. And what do you find better than the fact that she gave her life.

Aban did not say in his version: Then her clothes were tied to her.

Abu dawud

Angela wrote: However, several hadiths prescrib lashing as almost an act of ritual more than a punishment.  Hitting with a Miswak wouldn't hurt....but it could be very embarrassing.

There are only one or two ahadith and that is regarding a person who was so sick that companions told Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam when asked to bring the person that if he is moved all of his stature will collapse, So Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam told them to hit him once with hundered straws. It is not embarrassing, it is mercy and hope that even though the punishment is by name but He will be counted as the ones who have received their punishment in this world.

Angela wrote: The Quran says to lock away an unrepentant woman.  How can you lock her away if shes dead???

Those ayaat are Makkan and it was the time when rule was not of islam, when muslims had their own community and rule of law in Medina, the punishmen was Stoning for married and lashes for unmarried.

Angela wrote: Hadiths are important from many historical and religious standpoints.  But sometimes they lack an all encompassing view of the situation.

We dont believe that, we believe Prophets alyhimussalaam are made pure to rid them of any mistakes of human nature. Our Prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam was asked as to why he turned away from a blind person to give more attention to some chiefs. So if a such minute thing was corrected, major thing as stoning could not have just be let by. 

Angela wrote: I also know many young girls I counselled at the home for troubled youth.  They were not so much fornicators as victims of the older men who abused them.  These girls were used and pressured.  Instead of being beaten themselves, the men who did this to them should be punished and mercy to the victim.

Islam clearly differentiates between a rape and adultery/fornication. Even if the women cant bring the proof, the medical exam these day could give proof for her. Even in the older days her physical examination was taken as a proof and even if man was set free for lack of evidence against him, there is no punishment for her.

Angela wrote: The lesson I got from the back and forth debate of those of you in this discussion is really there is no perfect answer.  A just man would way all the situations and determine what is appropriate.  Perhaps for the woman who was stoned by the Prophet... that was the appropriate punishment, whereas, with another it would be 100 lashes with a wet noodle.

Yeah a God fearing just muslim judge will always follow Holy Qur'an and Sunnah and the examples of early generations. No one here can deny that their practice was stoning for married women/men.

Wassalam

minuteman wrote:    I stated some principle that the matters of seriousness such as dealing with life and death cannot be decided only on the basis of Hadith. Proof for them must come from Quran. That is the opinion of the learned Ulema.

I am not aware of this "mysterious" principle in the science of usul al fiqh. In fact, my biggest question is that if this "principle" is such a strongly guiding axion of the shairah, why it has remained a mystery to the greatest minds of the past 10 centuries? Rajm has been a known practice of the sunnah and has not been questioned. I would noy question the ulema, but I would question an unknown self proclaimed scholar who asserts an unknown and mysterious axiom that you are now invoking.

And I am not sure which learned ulema you are speaking of sense rajm is agreed upon with a consensus.

Keeping that in the mind, I do not see even a word about stoning an adulterer in the Quran. And it is a matter of life and death. So what I am to do??

Either the prophet (saw) was lying, or his companions were lying, and the third generation was teaching nonsense, if we follow your line of reasoning.

What I do is follow the most reasonable path that I can find the most "confidence" in: The Quran, Sunnah, ijma, qiyas. 

The principle that I have stated is not from me. It is from a well known Muslim scholar of Indo/Pakistan. He says that the matters affecting life and death cannot be decided by the Hadith alone. Proof for them must come from the Quran. I believe that he was right.

It is unfortunate that this famous and well known scholar did not bless the lives of Imam Nawawi, Imam Al Ghazali, the Sahaba, and the tabi'in, and thier followers, and Imam Abu Hanifa, and Imam Malik, and Imam Shafi, and Imam Ahmed, and Imam Hajar Asqalani, Imam Muslim, Imam Al Bukhari, etc, etc, etc. My question now is why didn't God bless these great men with the knowledge of your sheikh.

It seems you and your sheikh are very blessed.

The Ummah has its share of self made experts who have claims of novelty. Novelty is what it is.

So many cases of stoning have been mentioned in the previous posts. I have read them, there is a reference (short) only and a long list. I am interested in knowing some more Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim with exact words please. If there is any Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim stating in the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. That a married fornicator must be put to death by stoning then it will make it all the more eas]y for to understand this subject.

Sister Fatima posted plenty, and there are plenty more that are left to be posted.

Those Hadith should be related to the time of the prophet. I know that Rajam was practiced in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. But I know thatthe prophet s.a.w.s. used to pray facing Jeroshlem too. There was no clear order for that but he used to do it. Similarly, there was no special order to stone a fornicator to death but he used to do it.

You are mixing apples and oranges. You repeat this comparison, "facing Jerusalem then facing Mecca", with "rajm", and there is nothing that connects these two issues. I am not sure how else to tell you, logically, they are simply not related. I am not sure what notion you have concocted in your mind, but they have nothing in common.

1) Allah commanded the Muslims to face Mecca after commanding them to face Jerusalem for a period of time, and this is not related, not even as far as an analogy, to the issue of rajm.

2) You saying that there was no clear order for the prophet (saw) to do it is simply rubbish. Allah ordered him to do it. That is clear enough.

After he was told to face the Qiblah (Ka'abah), he never even one day faced the Jeroshlem for daily prayers. Similarly, after the order of 100 lashes for the adulteres in Suran Noor, we need to know the practice of the holy prophet s.a.w.s. as to what he did in the case of adulteres who were not involved in any other crime.

You say "similarly", but I have yet to find any major attributes that the two occurences have in common? As far as I can see, they have nothing in common as far as the intention of this thread. The kibla was fixed, so what? Why would anyone go against the command of God?

I gave you a hadith that demonstrated knowledge of the 100 lashes for an unmarried guilty person, while demonstrating knowledge of stoning for a married person.

You keep wanting to see "more hadiths", I am not sure what you are looking for.

Also, if it is proved that stoning was in practice during the time of the great Khulafa, then that would be additional proof in favor of stoning. Please search and provide the material.

Sister Fatima gave you examples.

What it comes down to is this:

1) The prophet (saw) practiced it.

2) The Sahaba practiced it

3) The Tabi'in practiced it

4) their followers practiced it

If you do not trust this line, then you must specify who we do not trust, who was wrong, and have ample evidence besides speculation to support doubt.