It�s gay rights laws that are intolerant,

crasss wrote:   Teaching the kids to "praise the Lords!", "give thanks to the Lords!", "we love the almighty Lords!", while the guy who exploits the village is also called a Lord. There is an undeniable pattern here ...

Well, when you are talking about translations, it does get messy.  But, first off.  Its the difference between THE LORD and Lord....There is only ONE ALMIGHTY.  Its Praise the Lord... and that's really more of an evangelical thing.  But seriously, what's the difference between Christians teaching their children to Praise the LORD and those who teach children to yell "Allah Akbar" when a bomb goes off in a market place killing not soldiers but innocent people.  Its a wrong that ills all societies.

Angela wrote: Humans have a natural tendency to place their own race above another.  Tutsi vs Hutu, Aryan vs Non Aryan, Chinese vs Japanese, Arab vs Non Arab. I agree. But religion should not endorse or reinforce this tendency.

Given the circumstances, these governments are not doing too bad. It could be a lot worse. They are keeping quite a few of the bad ideas, the devilish movies and satanic music, out. The population is apparently learning to say "no" to all of this.

Nooo, not bad at all.  Gasing their own people, starving children in the streets picking garbage to survive, women beaten and killed by their spouses without any protections under the law.  Children without education while leaders drive western cars, dine on caviar and kobe beef and sleep on silk bed sheets.  But, the people are safe from music and movies.  I'm sure that hungry child is thrilled that he has no food, but he doesn't have to worry about the hedonism and excesses of Hollywood. 

Angela wrote: The teachings of Christ in no way say you must obey your government. It is not Jesus who came up with that idea, but emperor Constantine.

EXACTLY!  Yet you insist on blaming it on Christianity.  I grew up in an Eastern Orthodox Church....I converted to Mormonism.  But, I have never been attracted to the Western Churches.  The ones established by Paul and his successors.  The Roman Empire, Dark Ages, Inquisitors, and restrictions of thought and progress.

The model to be looked at is Moorish Spain.  Jew, Christian and Muslim lived in harmony.  Education was at its height.  However, there are no governments in the Middle East that are prepared to offer their people that kind of freedom.  They will use perversions of Islam to keep their people from understanding the freedoms that the Quran teaches.  They will use perversions of Christianity and Judaism to make their people afraid of the other Peoples of the Book.  And they will use the sad reality of a disintegrating West to keep their people in poverty and fear. 

They aren't holding the West at Bay, the leaders are enjoying the benefits of the West.  They are however, using the screen of piety to keep their people from attaining the heights of Islamic Society as in the times of the Moors and the Great Caliphs of the Middle East.

Corruption and Greed are possible to all, doesn't matter religion or race.  And before you Blame the west and call us Satan again.

Remember, every man is responsible for his own sins, there is no original sin or savior in Islam.  If the Devil Tempts you, you are responsible to say no.  The sin is no the temptation, its giving into that temptation.  So, if Muslims blow each other up rather than fight the invaders, the sin is theirs.  If Arab leaders oppress their people, the sin is theres.  Only they are responsible for their own actions.

crasss,

You seriously have no understanding of Christianity or of serfdom.  I think you confused European Society with Christian Theology.

I think you need to step back and separate them.  Just like separating Middle Eastern Culture with the teachings of Islam.  It can be difficult because after 1400 years they have become interlaced.  But there are distinctions to be made.  The same is with Western Culture and Christianity.  When you went off on the pollution of Christianity by the Romans, you were correct.  But, it is natural human failures that you are thinking are theological doctrine. 

Jew and Gentile... the big debate by the Apostles was whether Christianity was for some or all.  The same thing was addressed by the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) in his Last Sermon.  Humans have a natural tendency to place their own race above another.  Tutsi vs Hutu, Aryan vs Non Aryan, Chinese vs Japanese, Arab vs Non Arab.

This also can go towards ideologies.  Democracy vs Communism.  Republics versus True Democracies.  Socialism vs Communism.  Monarchy vs Oligarchy.  Theocracy vs Secular Government.

People are naturally arrogant.  You call the leadership of the US Satan.  (With Bush, I almost have to agree...less than a 1/3 of the country likes him)  But, you cannot see fault with any of the Middle Eastern or Central Asian rulership?????  Which of these countries to do you consider an Ideal Islamic State?  Caliphs are to be fair and just.  I don't see that in Tehran, Islamabad, Amman, Damascas or Riyadh.  Which of these governments would you wish to lead your people back to prosperity and peace?

The US cannot do it.....we are too wrapped up in our own ideas of perfect government.  Which doesn't work for every culture.  I told my husband after I started learning about Islam that the US needs to pull out of Iraq.  Culturally and religiously, Republican Democracy (representative government) will not work in a tribal and sectarian society that's perfect form of government is a Theocratic Monarchy.  When al-Maliki fired the successful Sunni generals that were pursuing the Shia Death Squads, I just looked at my husband and said, "Told you so."

Crasss, if you read the Bible, Torah, and Apocrypha.  The teachings of Christ in no way say you must obey your government.  However, killing is still a sin.  Thou Shall Not Kill.  Kinda plain.  A civilized society doesn't walk into a neighborhood and killed twenty men because they belong to the opposite political party.  This country is verging on another change like what happened in the 1960s.  The government has waged an unjust war and the people are stirring.  The next election will seriously determine the course of the war and foreign policies.  Yes, there are only two parties, but in those candidates, there are a variety of opinions and methodologies.  Republican Democracies are cyclical...  periods of high corruption and house cleaning.  If you studied our history you would see that.  Men of corruption like Andrew Jackson, followed years later by men of integrity like Abraham Lincoln.  Its and up and down....right now we're in the down....a very low...pathetic, needless down.  But I have confidence that it will go back up.

G�ring:Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars. G�ring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. In an interview with Gilbert in G�ring's jail cell during the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials (18 April 1946),

I had to laugh.....

Funny how the topic started out discussing gays, then gay rights, then AIDsm then AIDs epidemic, then Darfur Sudan, then serfs...BTW why call unarmed Christians Serfs?