Nationalism

It is convenient approach to dispell an opinion by choice nit picking. Lets not miss the wood from the trees.

Where did I specifically mention of redefining the concept of Islamic state? My stand have been one realism. The test of a pudding is in the taste. Whose are we to follow? Iqbal's Pakistan? Khomeini's Iran? Al Banna and Syed Qutb's vision of Egypt? Maududi's India? Abdul Wahab's Saudi Arabia? Taliban's Afghanistan? Show me!

The idea of a state, Islamic or otherwise, is about governing, administering,  law & order, peace, millitary, livelihood, welfare, etc.  For an Islamic state, it is seeing Islam practise and flourish. Look at the countries mentioned and make your own conclusion. 

One commentary dismissed Malay Nationalism as about romantic notion of culture and language. You missed the point totally. Malay Nationalism is about Realpolitik, understanding and workign within the Malaysian demography, history and society. PAS�s idea of Islamic state totally disregard all these aspect of Malaysia.

I do not have any confidence of mullah�s ability to grasp these complexities. PAS�s Nik Aziz inefficiency in administering the state of Kelantan and arrogance of Hadi in his stinct in the state of Terengganu are living examples. Even, the Arab-beloved, Anwar Ibrahim, the fallen out grace former Deputy Prime Minister and perceived as an Islamist. openly disagree with PAS�s Islamic state stand.     

Someone mentioned abt non Malay Muslim to be a Prime Minister?  IF you are familiar with teh tarik (a Malaysian favourite social drink of sweetened milk tea), you must have known that our former PMs have blood lineage with Siam, Central Asian, and India. In fact, Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, the current PM, has Arab blood.

In reply to another comment, Nationalism definitely is not the only reason for today�s success. Economy need peace to develop and peace nature of Malays through their Malaysia nationalism struggle to lead the country provided for that.

May Allah bless this nation of ours. 

Assalamualaikum Mckoba

My Malay side is supposed to contain emotion, be courteous, polite and sensitive to others� feeling. I should apologise if I had misbehaved. Please not make anything more out of an exclamation mark. Also, I shd point out that I mistyped the word Malaysian Nationalism. So, if I read you correctly, I have not progressed. Pity me.   

Perhaps I could reply with a tic-for-tac. Perhaps, use the standard debating trick to deny or present new facts. Utilise defensive or offensive postures. And perhaps take the discussion to a different level or direction. Perhaps use some spin. Definitely I will not use Israel as example or tell Muslim to emulate those ruthless Zionist Khazarians.

Since you seemed to advocate a solitary attitude to �agree to disagree�, then I will take it in good spirit not to resort to those tactic of debating that will end up into endless exchanges.

No point trying to convert anyone�s opinion. People could gather their own fact, criteria, prioritise and derived best fit conclusion. They change when their heart is appealed to. I am sure you will agree that we shd lay our fact than resort to use of strong words such as �blind�, �distorted� and �illusion� and get worked up with own conceived conclusion.   

I grew up with the song of the late John Lennon, Imagine. He seemed unislamic by syariah standard but the message of the song is �Islamic� and universal in promoting ideals of peace and harmony amongst all of mankind, beyond the boundaries of race, country and religion.

Peace does matter to nation building and could not be conveniently subjugated as mere by product. That is political Islam. Islam by its Malay meaning is �sejahtera� or trasnlated by Kamus Lengkap as �peaceful and prosperous�, �free and calm�, �safe�, �free from difficulties�, etc. Here I differ violently than MCKOBA

All �principal� is inextricably tied and accompanied by �interest�. Getting ideological without protecting ones interest is plain obtuse. As Muslims, we must abide by our Islamic principle to be fair and just in that endeavour to protect our interest. As far as the Malay Muslim experience in Malaysia, our homeland, we have been on the defensive, mere reactive and the receiving end of discrimination.

Coming back to the issue at hand. If my recollection of history has not abondaned me, one of the earliest modern Islamic thinkers was the persian Jamaluddin Al Afghani. In the early part of 20^th century or perhaps late 19^th century, he observed the deplorable state of Muslim in the �Islamic� nation-state carved out by the colonials. He advocate Muslims to free themselves from colonial power and see the need for Muslims to be united.

From him, sprang other modern Islamic thinkers generating each own version of solutions to the malice of the ummah. The approaches to the solutions cuts within the divide of realist vis-�-vis idealist, �modern� vis-�-vis conservative, political vis-�-vis economic, etc.

One solution mooted was for Islamic statehood, said to be based on the Medina Constitution, which is the general moral principle to govern the multiracial and multireligious city-state of  Medina. When the Prophet Muhammad passed away,  it was continued by the Khalifah Ar Rashidun. Their wise judgement and the adherence of the subjects are the hallmark of the early Islamic government. 

As the empire grew, governing become more complex, the ideals of the Medina Constitution became difficult to apply. Human nature takes over as powers struggle shaape up. The Khalifahdom was structured into dynasty and inherited rulers. Any change in a dynasty is preceded by power struggle. Leadership is no more selected from amongst the most knowledgable and suitable. 

One can deduce that prior to Jamaluddin Afghani, the concept of Islamic state was non existence. Medina Constitution was not a Constitution per say. Nation state doesn�t exist until the Western colonial powers come to being. The idea of Islamic state is  a political approach to solve socio-economic problems of the ummah. It is not just about syariah law.

What has the ideological luxuries lead us to? Have there been any well conceived solution derived from these ideologies (off course with Quran and Hadith as source) that managed to solve the malice of the ummah?  

Islam at its primary level is about taqwa ie abiding and refraining. Then its about moving up in the spirituality learning and experience curve of feel and finally taste (I�ll not get to it). Thus, the state of Islam (not to be confused with Islamic state) is best through individuals salvation to strive for goodness or at least, ever conscience of goodness (ihsan). It would flourish in a state of peace and prosperity and not by legalistic approach.   

I concur with Jamaluddin Afghani (and Mockba) on the need for Muslim unity to bring out strength. To what extent does Islamic unity exist? If the response of some of our fellow cash rich Muslim to the plight of my fellow Malay Muslim in the Acheh Tsunami disaster, as  compared to other natiosn of the world, is an indication, can I rely on such perception of unity.

Its clearly that to each we should learn to fend for ourselves. The reality is that problem and constraints of Muslims at one region could not be understood by another Muslim from another region. Mockba idealistic propositions seemed in denial to the unique constraints, history and problem beseiging Malay Muslims in Malaysia.

Although your source of the published 40 businessmen is inaccurate, derived from malaysia Business magazine, I accept that we are not doing as well as we wanted in this area compared to fellow Malaysians from the other races. But it is to the Malay and Muslim interest to do well in business. 

Perhaps, I become unMalay to be boostful. In many other areas than the apex of business, Malay Nationalism has been helpful in uplifting the ummah. Some only 30 odd years ago, we started the race from way behind and we have high percentage of poverty in our community. In education, we were some more than 100 years disadvantaged in our motherland. Things are way much better. 

Malay Nationalism or whatever term you wish to coin, is a current solution to the plight of the Malaysian ummah. An approach that balance principle of fair governing and interest of the son-of-soil. Achieving peace in an unarmed war with SunTzu strategist. If we are to conform to total meritocrasy, it would be an uneven race with a clear loser.

I could concede to Mockba that the future maybe different, lets not deny the fact it was a localised solution. I still pose the same repeated question: What model of Islamic state will help teh plight of the ummah in Malaysia? As far as meeting Mockba�s criteria of Islamic State, syariah law has long been carried out albeit without the hudud. (That�s your bullet). Our leaders are elected, not inherited. They are educated, experience and full time politicians.  

I do not expect you to understand and agree with me. That�s the way the cookie crumble. Allah knows our intentions.

Wassalam

Respectfully

utd4ever

Assalamualaikum

MOCKBA

From your firm stand to my lengthy and barrage of Information thrown in the fry, may you deserve heaven, where lies all  perfection for us mortals. While I have to continue with my hope, pray and fought so that my people would not be distracted by worldly difficulties in their temporal journey for the hereafter.  

Perhaps I have to do a nit pick response. My responses are in blue. 

you have made quite an effort to respond to my simple objection of nationalism... with a whirlwind of mixed thoughts and bits of Sun Tzu's art of war, principles of debate, al-Afghani, colonialism, John Lennon, tsunami, malay linguistics to mention a few... my response is nothing but to appreciate it, the effort. Though I would rather like it if, in the case i were not to agree, you could at least expect me understand you, referring to your last line.  

You are too high in heavenly pedestal to come down to temporal reality. I am failing to gain at least an appreciation that I am talking from our life journey towards heaven than your perfection in heaven. I can't even extract your honest reply on  Islamic state.  

Perhaps I shd start pointing out, that your perfect 2020 vision have peripheral imperfecion.  

Malaysian ummah, as far as i thought, is made up of Malay Muslims, significant number of Muslims with strong flavour of Indian sub-continent, occasional yet not uncommon Chinese Muslims and other few.

Indian in Malaysia is 10 odd %,  the bulk are Hindu. Indian Muslim make up perhaps only 2-3% of population. Chinese Muslims are infinitesimal vis-a-vis the total popn. Or we have to talks in terms of atom, electrons, and quarks.

Malay Nationalism does not seem to be embracing non-Malay Muslims of the Malaysian Ummah and could not therefore be, as you say, "current solution to the plight of the Malaysian ummah". You may have noticed that difference is being made between Malay and Malaysian - the two are not always the same, the former being a race, by the way. 

I refrain from detailing at length in a public forum. Browse for the work mamak, which is Indian Muslim, can you make out the mamaks from Malays. Find out about UMNO Tanjung Division in  Penang. Browse for a former singer, DJ Dave, this is interesting example. Heard of the Tan of Pengkalen Group or the Zaiton Industry. I should be resting my case here if you care to understand.

I would not expand on the subject of leadership through electoral votes (You got proof? CNN News don't count) , riba being the foundation of the economy of the Islamic State (Hint hint I am a former banker. Care to elaborate.) , Malaysian Shari'ah governed by a predominant Common Law (get your facts right before stating this position), and Malay meaning of Islaam if it happens to be revealing something new to the world (Whats so wrong there?).

Well we can talk of all that. Just be clear on the terms of reference. Or it'll be sliding all over like debating with PAS when they are pressed to the wall. 

But its ole rhetorics. Boring. I want to see solution for the ummah in Malaysia. Muslims should solve their localised problems, then look up to heaven to humbly kneel before God with the satisfaction that we have empowered Islam and the ummah.

as i have tried to focus on nationalism only and its incompatibility with Islaam. 

I am failing as a debater. I keep repeating and you still assuming Malay Nationalism as Nationalism. Are you related to Camdesus or with the IMF?  

In my previous two posts i have provided basic information that i find at this point convincing enough to reject nationalism and racism.

nationalism

n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism] 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: multiculturalism, internationalism] 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination 4: the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals [ant: internationalism]

Have a look at the above definition, particularly [2]. Take some time reflecting on what it means. Now that you know the meaning of "nationalism" try answer a simple question - Is it in line with Islaamic teachings? 

No wonder you were equating Malay Nationalism with Zionism in your last posting. I implied it as a wild accusation and offensive remark. And you are still repeating it here. 

I suggest you start rereading also no. 1, no. 3 and no. 4 and understand in a dictionary you pick which meaning is applicable and not spin it to suit your argument! Now forward, you shd take the exclamation mark seriously.

Those very mullah's that you see so impotent today are very often the result of nationalism which makes them look at the world as being confined within the boundary of their village, state and country.  

Correction! That is wild unguided generalisation. Perhaps you should read up history and find out of Malay Islamic scholar of past and such. Those mullah I mentioned are proponents of Islamic state like you but are unable to and lacking idea and intellect to govern a state.  

Lets get real and see things in totality. Negativism and recalcitrant idealism leads to nowhere.   

Wassalam

utd4ever

utd4ever wrote: I grew up with the song of the late John Lennon, Imagine. He seemed unislamic by syariah standard but the message of the song is �Islamic� and universal in promoting ideals of peace and harmony amongst all of mankind, beyond the boundaries of race, country and religion.

How can pop icons, every action of whose is inspired by conceitment and self-aggrandizment, can be expected to act islamically??

And, you seem to be deviating from the topic and not Mockba.

utd4ever wrote: Peace does matter to nation building and could not be conveniently subjugated as mere by product.

Yes, I agree peace is important for nation building. But peace is repugnant without justice. Without justice, peace is a big deception. Peace can only be acheived after justice has been done.

utd4ever wrote: What has the ideological luxuries lead us to? Have there been any well conceived solution derived from these ideologies (off course with Quran and Hadith as source) that managed to solve the malice of the ummah?

Muslims gained power and glory because of their adherence to their religion. Before Islam, those, who converted to Islam, were nothing. Islam brought them prosperity. Muslims fell because of their indulgence in wine and women. Muslims disobeyed Allah, though, they were warned by Muhammad (S.A.S). Muslims have never benefited from digressing from their religion. Our salvation lies only in return to our faith.

utd4ever wrote: Islam at its primary level is about taqwa ie abiding and refraining. Then its about moving up in the spirituality learning and experience curve of feel and finally taste (I�ll not get to it). Thus, the state of Islam (not to be confused with Islamic state) is best through individuals salvation to strive for goodness or at least, ever conscience of goodness (ihsan). It would flourish in a state of peace and prosperity and not by legalistic approach.

Islam has to be followed in all walks of life. Islam is not supposed to be a pastime. It has to be followed to the full. We can adopt views and customs of non-islamic cultures ONLY if they don't clash with the Islamic laws.

Besides, you seem to be opposed to the point that Islam enjoined fighting to oppose persecution.

utd4ever wrote: To what extent does Islamic unity exist?

That depends on us. We will have to unite and learn to help each other. I know it is very difficult and I don't know how it will be done. But I certainly know that it is much easier for us to unite than, it was for Muhammad (S.A.S) to deliver the Message of Allah to mankind.

utd4ever wrote: If the response of some of our fellow cash rich Muslim to the plight of my fellow Malay Muslim in the Acheh Tsunami disaster, as  compared to other natiosn of the world, is an indication, can I rely on such perception of unity.

Are you a woman, by the way??

We cannot hope to unite unless, we stop questioning what other Muslims can do for us and start asking ourselves what we can do for other Muslims.

In the past, Muslims brought prosperity to the lands they conquered.  Whereas, Westerners impoverished whichever land that had the misfortune of being visited by them. So, you should be convinced other Muslims won't take anything away from Malays (though, there have been ruthless Muslim conquerors in the past, but there must be many Malaysian conquerors too).

As for your statistics, Saudi Arabia spends greater percentage of its GDP on aid than the USA (and other Western countries which routinely default on their aid). Also another interesting link is:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/usa/2003/0626per suasion.htm

utd4ever wrote: Perhaps, I become unMalay to be boostful. In many other areas than the apex of business, Malay Nationalism has been helpful in uplifting the ummah. Some only 30 odd years ago, we started the race from way behind and we have high percentage of poverty in our community. In education, we were some more than 100 years disadvantaged in our motherland. Things are way much better.

Allah alone makes people prosperous. For some, prosperity is a reward; for others, it is a test.

utd4ever wrote: I still pose the same repeated question: What model of Islamic state will help teh plight of the ummah in Malaysia? As far as meeting Mockba�s criteria of Islamic State, syariah law has long been carried out albeit without the hudud. (That�s your bullet). Our leaders are elected, not inherited. They are educated, experience and full time politicians.

First of all, we need to built the consensus and the will to unite among the Muslims. We will have to make sacrifices and adjustments, depending on the problems we face in future; and  Allah will show us the way, as He did to many other people in the past.

ZamanH