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Nausheen View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 March 2005 at 9:07am
Topic: As I See ... (1 of 2), Read 8 times
Conf: Issues: Nationalism Within the Ummah
From: utd4ever
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2005 07:35 PM

Much of the opposition here to Nationalism was based on the negative aspect of it in teh context of Middle Eastern experiance and literal Quranic interpretation. I am not well versed to quote Quran and Hadith. But I believe the real world and results should be taken in account.

The world is not homogeneously made out of one race or one religion. Even within one race, one find differences in religion or differences in smaller sub-groups. Any person will be categorie by criterias and it is human nature to affiliate with a particularly type of grouping.

Even the Quran attest to this. But it is how taqwa you are that really determines ones status and it means how much have you adhered to the way of Islam, as much as you are capable (taking account we are imperfect, weak and mortal beings).

In Malaysia, it has been a long debate on Nationalism vs Islamic State (or Negara Islam). The "Islamist" Oppostion party, PAS accused UMNO, the Malay Nationalist party and the dominant member in the ruling coolition, BN, of practising Assobiyah and promotes the idea of Islamic State.

PAS has used similar arguments one find in these conference/threads, to justify Islam to over-ride existing political and social structure. While, UMNO has questioned PAS version of Islamic State, criticed it as lacking meat for a comprehensive solution to a multiracial and multireligious developing nation and small quarters viewed PAS as advocating Arabism, then Islam.

The former Prime Minister, Tun Dr Mahathir made claim that Malaysia is already an Islamic State. WHen taken into account reality, there are too few modern Islamic state nation and the concept of modern Islamic State varies between Islamic intellectuals. For Malaysia, many Islamic intelectuals like the Azhar Rector has given acknowledgement to Malaysia.

As an ordinary Malay, who professes and practise Islam, reads history and travelled the world, I view Nationalism should not be narrowly criticised from a theological ideology point of view but need to consider the historical, cultural, and political reality.

As I see, there is nothing wrong with the way Nationalism is practised in Malaysia as Islam could be practised, no discrimination against fellow Muslim and Islam is well imbedded and inseparable part of Malay culture.

Malay Civilisation has already absorded Islam to its culture and it can be conveniently claimed that Malay=ISlam and Islam=MAlay. History records shows that the conversion to Islam by Malays was seamless. Conventional history, as advocated by the European and non Muslim/Malay, believed that Malays were formerly Hindu or Buddhist. But some research has revealed that Malays were actually practising some form of monotheist religion or perhaps the pure monotheist Hindu or Buddha religion.

Assobiyah, as I see is the bias affiliation to ones race/tribes that results in human discrimination, cruelty and sadism to one outside ones grouping. I am sorry to say this but assobiyah is practised in Arab culture up to today. ANd, not Malay culture. Malay is an open culture and ready to embrace diverse race and good practices into its own.

Nationalism in Malaysia comes with an affirmative action for the son-of-soil of Malays and others races to compensate the discrimation imposed by the colonials and as catch up to the other immigrant races. Muslims of non Malays are not discriminated against as the racial defination is relax on non Malay Muslim for a son-of-soil status.

I see Nationalism as a necessary tool and justify for the development of the ummah, within the context of Malaysia. Nationalism was the necessary ideology in the 50s to unite the people to seek independence from the British. Race is a more practical grouping for the up-lifting of the poor and uneducated and the discriminated by history.

In Malaysia, the facilities, the budget allocation, the infrastructure, and the education to learn, practise and propogate Islam is available. We have many Islamic Institutions such Islamic Banks, Zakat institution, Islamic Universities, and many types of Instituion not found in many Islamic nations. Malays are practising Muslims, who are steadfast with the prayers, fasting in Ramadhan, paying of zakat and insufficient quotas for us to perform Haj and Umrah. It is not bad for a nation that is based on Malay Nationalism.

I strongly adhere to the Prophet's Hadith, which I can't exactly reproduce verbatim now, but to the effect it means we are in the best position and knowledgable to address our worldly affair.

What good is a full proof ideology if the people of the nation is poor and illiterate and the nation is disunited, weak and not at peace. Islam is best propogated in a condition of peace.

What good is fervent ideology when you can't come down to any workable solutions to govern your nation and it is in constant flux of turmoil.

In my days as student in America and Europe, I saw how Middle East politics affected Jumaat prayers. An Imam from one nationalities invite demonstration from with ane section of nationalities and teh change to another brings another set of demonstraters. Jumaat is disruptive and we saw many Imams performing the Jumaat. This happened some years back in Malaysia, with PAS militiaristic stand that a few rural mosque saw to Imams, and the fatwa issued by PAS to call its opponent murtad. Thank God, they have never appeal to voter.

I advocate Arab Muslims to learn from Malay and Chinese Muslims how to live in peace and live in reality. Malay and Chinese Muslim are bigger in population than Arabs. I believe we are a better example of Islamic behaviour of courtesy and tolerance than Arab Muslims.

===========================================

Topic: As I See ... (2 of 2), Read 3 times  
Conf:  Issues: Nationalism Within the Ummah 
From:  Angel
Date:  Thursday, March 10, 2005 09:55 PM 


"What experience & history teach is this: that people & governments have never learned anything from history".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~

interesting post


Angel.



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ZamanH View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZamanH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2005 at 9:52pm

"PAS has used similar arguments one find in these conference/threads, to justify Islam to over-ride existing political and social structure. While, UMNO has questioned PAS version of Islamic State, criticed it as lacking meat for a comprehensive solution to a multiracial and multireligious developing nation and small quarters viewed PAS as advocating Arabism, then Islam. "

It is interesting that Muslims lose their culture and language in no time, when they settle in the West;whereas, when it comes to uniting (or creating an Islamic state) they come up with complex theories about how much they love their language and culture etc. and how difficult it is for them to create an Islamic state because of that.

ZamanH.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote semar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2005 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by ZamanH ZamanH wrote:

"It is interesting that Muslims lose their culture and language in no time, when they settle in the West;"

ZamanH.



Why ZamanH so convinced that "west" is bad for Muslims? Do you have any real example?

As we know many good Muslims scholar in the west, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Dr. Muzamil Siddiqui, Dr. Ahmad Sakr, Dr. Hasan Hathout they still good even though already years live in the west, even their kids that educated and grows in the west still good Muslims. And many regular muslims and their families still keep the religion tightly.



Edited by semar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sarahrosecurry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2005 at 6:15pm
Zaman was not not referring to the scholarly, I don't believe. He may have been referring to those who come here to be educated. They find themselves away from their families and culture. They are exposed quickly to the evils of the West and embrace it because the evils can be invigorating. It is easier to be like those around you. Thus many of the Muslims that are coming over are changing. I have several friends that fit his statement exactly. They have noticably changed since their move to West. Yet they will say how their language and culture is the best of anyone.  The West can be a very dangerous place for those ill-prepared to handle it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2005 at 7:08pm

Originally posted by sarahrosecurry sarahrosecurry wrote:

Thus many of the Muslims that are coming over are changing. I have several friends that fit his statement exactly. They have noticably changed since their move to West.

Perhaps it is also that they are free to do some of the things that were oppressed in their homeland, some can't even practice their religion properly and now they can being in the west.

I do understand what ZamanH is talking about, those who don't keep up with their language and culture can lose it.

Yes I know, some will get caught up in the evils of the west ;-)



Edited by Angel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote semar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2005 at 7:22pm
The scholars that I mentioned, like you said, they came to the west to study, Dr. Sakr got phd in microbiology, Hasan Hathout in Medicine, so the west is not that bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZamanH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2005 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by semar semar wrote:

Originally posted by ZamanH ZamanH wrote:

"It is interesting that Muslims lose their culture and language in no time, when they settle in the West;"

ZamanH.



Why ZamanH so convinced that "west" is bad for Muslims? Do you have any real example?

Atleast in that post, my point was not whether West is bad for Muslims or not. My point was, when it comes to adopting Western culture, Muslims in general, do it more readily than when it is required for them to follow Islam strictly.

Also, I don't consider myself to be absoulutely perfect Muslim. But, I don't say what I should do is wrong, simply, because i can't do it.

ZamanH



Edited by ZamanH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MOCKBA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2005 at 9:25pm

 

It is interesting how people admit that they are not "well versed in the Quran and Sunnah" yet at the same time rush to define the concept of Islamic State.

"As I see, there is nothing wrong with the way Nationalism is practised in Malaysia..."  

...obviously, and without a doubt when you are Malay. Nationalism, for sure, protects interests of one particular group of people but it does not guarantee that it will not diminish the rights of others. Reflecting on the success of Malaysia in the political and economic scene one might as well attribute it to the royal Malay families whose status and endless rights resulting from it should never ever be questioned by any Malaysian. Are these the right explanations of country's success... or a make-belief? Reaping the harvest of his earlier views, former PM Tun Mahathir did come up with "The Malay Dilemma" trying to explaining the stagnant development process of Malays in the shadow of their special rights... "the son of soil"...

"Malay Civilisation has already absorded Islam to its culture and it can be conveniently claimed that Malay=ISlam and Islam=MAlay"

This is the very point that clearly explains why many Malays find non-Malay Muslims exotic to say the least. If you happen to be Muhammad of non-Asian complexion sipping teh tarik beneath the tallest Twin Towers in the world - you are likely to leave many Malays puzzled... "Mat Salleh (Caucasian) with a Malay name?!!"

"Muslims of non Malays are not discriminated against as the racial defination is relax on non Malay Muslim for a son-of-soil status.

Discrimination does not have to be in the form of a "white policemen using excessive force against a non-white citizen". One may enquire whether Malaysia can expect a a non-Malay Muslim Prime Minister born in Malaysia in the coming decades? This helps answer whether foundation of "Islamic State of Malaysia" is based on Islamic principles. How many scholarships are allocated for the non-Malay Muslim students?

"I see Nationalism as a necessary tool and justify for the development of the ummah, within the context of Malaysia.   

Malay Nationalism... Malay ummah... within the context of Malaysia.

With much respect to Malaysians and Malays, the country with true peace and harmony of various ethnic groups, with Muslims that have shown much patience and tolerance, I only tried to make a point that nationalism is not behind the achieved success at all (contrary to Malay nationalist's views above)  but it might be well behind potential disaster in the near future.   

May Allaah [The Great, The Glorious] make us devoted Muslims embracing each other, respecting each other, loving each other and defending each other in the context of the world. Perhaps one day Palestinians will cease to fight for Palestine, Chechens will cease their battles for Ichkeria and Indonesia will not bring up territorial disputes with Malaysia, but united, as Muslims should, they will establish an Islamic state, where the true supreme power is attributed to Allaah, The King of the Kings.

And Allah knoweth best.

MOCKBA

 



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