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The Bible has errors?

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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2006 at 10:20am

No Muslim can prove to me that Jesus was not the Son of God.  Nor can I prove to them what I believe to be true.  That is the power of belief. 

To a degree you are right but we have been given a mind to use. Most moslems I meet have not said it is a matter of belief. They have all encouraged me to think and use my mind. Rarely have I ever heard Christians say that. That somehow I need to just believe that God created his son (who by the way is God) to come down and die for us, (can God die in any form?) And then Jesus rose to be seated by God, but is God and somewhere in there is the holy spirit. Who sits next to God and Jesus but is God too.. rather confusing and actually illogical.

In Islam, they say, look at life, look around you, use logic, use science. Use your mind. Then if you can look at these things in a way and can "see" the divine then you believe in God. And the Quran is about helping people to see these signs. And if you believe in the Signs then you will believe in the Divine. Something mysterious and beyond all humans. Then it follows to logic that to give us knowledge God has sent people to be messengers or prophets. And God being just has sent these messengers to all peoples so that they can KNOW. We don't know all of them. Just some.

Seems logical to me. Jesus was one of the prophets / messengers. The message was corrupted by people for their own personal / political gain. It became corrupted and the Bible was altered to suit peoples' purposes.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Cyril View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyril Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2006 at 10:59am
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

To a degree you are right but we have been given a mind to use. Most moslems I meet have not said it is a matter of belief. They have all encouraged me to think and use my mind. Rarely have I ever heard Christians say that.

Muslims must use their minds... but according to the lines of the Quran. When it says that man is made from clay, you must precisely not use your mind or you would notice that it is a repeat of an old pagan myth.
Christians may not say that you have to use your mind but they just do it. See the tremendous progress in all types of sciences that has come from Christian countries compared to the rather "not use your mind" attitude of Muslim countries.
Christians by using their minds have  taken God out of the realm of science which has liberated thinking. Has such a way of thinking been used or is used by Muslim societies?

Quote In Islam, they say, look at life, look around you, use logic, use science. Use your mind. Then if you can look at these things in a way and can "see" the divine then you believe in God. And the Quran is about helping people to see these signs.

The same teaching about seeing God around us is in the Bible. There is nothing new in the Quran.

Quote Jesus was one of the prophets / messengers. The message was corrupted by people for their own personal / political gain. It became corrupted and the Bible was altered to suit peoples' purposes.



The usual worn-out questions: where (not where in the Bible but in which location did it occur), when and by whom?


Edited by Cyril
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Angel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2006 at 5:05pm

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

Muslims must use their minds... but according to the lines of the Quran. When it says that man is made from clay, you must precisely not use your mind or you would notice that it is a repeat of an old pagan myth.

Repeat of an old pagan myth ? May I ask for some more info on this, perhaps in a new thread   



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2006 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by Sarita Sarita wrote:

Actually I have been taught my whole life as a Christian that the Bible is perfect, without error. When I asked why we are not taught about the Council of Nicea, I was told that was political and had nothing to do with the Bible or the faith we have that Jesus Christ is our Savior.



Sarita,

I can only say that I don't know what Church you went to as a child.  I was raised both Russian Orthodox (My Mother's family) and Methodist (my Father's) and neither taught the Bible to be infallible.  Both recognized that the Bible was in the end, inspired works by the hands of Men, thus errors were possible.  Matter of fact, the Eastern Orthodox scriptures accept more books than even the Roman Catholic Vulgate. 

Also, the Bible most people are taught from in Protestant Faiths is the King James Version.  This is a translation and therefore also subject to errors.  James I was not necessarily innocent in his reasoning to translate the Bible into the King's English.  Men were burned at the stake previously for such an attempt.

In the end, as a Christian one must study both doctrine and history.  Anyone who follows a faith blindly without introspection and query, is going to find themselves lacking in the end. 

Try to do research on Hagia Sophia (not the Church) where is she in the modern Eastern Church?  Or perhaps watch the evolution of Mary Magdalene from apostle, to prostitute, to follower and now assertions of marriage.  All are not really supported by the New Testament.  Some are the creations of men such as the prostitute and the wife.  Others are assertions of gospels and church leaders. 

All religions are subject to taint by the hands of men.  The violence today in "so-called" muslim countries is not a result of the teachings of Islam but the corruption of the original teachings.  Muslims failing to learn about the history of the Surahs and Ayats that they use to justify actions that any child can see are clearly wrong. 

The Bible has errors.  The question is, which errors are matters of great importance.  Where do you divide the line and what evidence do you use?  It breaks down to the word of one man versus another.  Paul says he saw Jesus.  John, Peter, James were apostles at his feet.  Muhammed says an Angel came to him and revealed the truth that had been lost. 

But, unless there is hard evidence, the arguements will continue to go on.  I for one, refuse to believe that further arguements and contentions is what Heavenly Father wants us to be doing.  I don't believe that just because you aren't ____X_____ then you won't get into heaven.  I've never believed that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lalala Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2006 at 7:58pm
"Chemically, the human body consists mainly of water and of organic compounds"
britannica online | Elemental Composition of the Human Body



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mona_1022 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 November 2006 at 11:01pm

This is a very interesting thread.  In my opinion, no one here should feel offended or upset by other's beliefs.  But I do agree that we were created with evolving intelligence for a reason.  God makes no mistakes in His design.  People need to stop thinking of God as a person and realize that God is a being that we can never comprehend because He Is beyond our comprehension.  You don't even have to leave Earth to have a glimpse of His greatness.  Just think of the Atlantic Ocean.  It takes about 14 hours to get across it.  How biggg it is, and God created it.  The trees grow and have their cycles without our input...the air moves around the earth allowing us to breath....our blood runs through our veins without us even thinking about it....the list goes on....Now you must look at every aspect of your life.  Everything your eyes lay sight on, everything your ears hear, everything you can touch, smell and taste.  Who created all of this?  God!  Our planet is but an insignificant part of our Galaxy, let alone our universe.  The universe is so huge that even the most intelligent of us cannot understand its size.  Now think about it, who created it?  Surely no man.  So now tell me, does God need a son?  Definitely not.  He is Great beyond our comprehension and instead of trying to argue about who's religion is right, why not start at the foundation of your belief.....GOD!  He and only He can guide you to the truth.  If God's creation is so amazing beyond which we can fully comprehend, then would he not have had a plan?  Would He allow for His book to have mistakes or different versions?  Of coarse not,  the mistakes come from man, for God does not make annnnyyy mistakes. 

Faith cannot be sewn into your soul unless you have searched for God in every aspect of your life, not just religion.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2006 at 10:32am

Christians may not say that you have to use your mind but they just do it. See the tremendous progress in all types of sciences that has come from Christian countries compared to the rather "not use your mind" attitude of Muslim countries.

It depends on who you define as "Christian." Are you talking about people who have separated themselves from religion, commonly referred to as humanists? As we know most "advances" are done in predominantly secular countries. There has been a turning away from combining faith and science in these areas.  This started in Europe during the Renaissance. And it did not make the religious sectors happy at all and resulted in the Roman Inquisition.  

As far as what Moslems did in the past I would say the colonization of lands that were predominantly Moslem had an effect on efforts. How can you be worried about science and such if you are fighting for your livelihood and survival?

And it can be argued in the west that people have so far turned away from spirituality that they have seen it is their �right� to destroy and pillage the natural world.  It is this type of superiority complex has left us shakey in terms of long-term survival. The excesses of the west are a danger to the planet. If there was a true connection to the spiritual, would people waste so much as focus on accumulating so many useless and wasteful possessions?

 

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Cyril View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyril Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2006 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Christians may not say that you have to use your mind but they just do it. See the tremendous progress in all types of sciences that has come from Christian countries compared to the rather "not use your mind" attitude of Muslim countries.

It depends on who you define as "Christian." Are you talking about people who have separated themselves from religion, commonly referred to as humanists? As we know most "advances" are done in predominantly secular countries. There has been a turning away from combining faith and science in these areas.
This started in Europe during the Renaissance. And it did not make the religious sectors happy at all and resulted in the Roman Inquisition.  

As far as what Moslems did in the past I would say the colonization of lands that were predominantly Moslem had an effect on efforts. How can you be worried about science and such if you are fighting for your livelihood and survival?

And it can be argued in the west that people have so far turned away from spirituality that they have seen it is their �right� to destroy and pillage the natural world.  It is this type of superiority complex has left us shakey in terms of long-term survival. The excesses of the west are a danger to the planet. If there was a true connection to the spiritual, would people waste so much as focus on accumulating so many useless and wasteful possessions?



The people who separated faith and science remained Christians for most of them. The Roman Inquisition was mainly created to pursue and eradicate heresies or non-Christian religions. It did not exist in the Northern part of Europe which had become Protestant.
You are right when you denounce our over-developed Western civilization but that is not the point of the discussion.
The point was whether Islam allowed a free use of reason as to the explanation of the world.



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