The Gospel

Luke 11

15: But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

16: And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

17: But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

18: If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? Because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

19: And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore shall they be your judges.

20: But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

21: When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

22: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

23: He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

24: When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

25: And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

26: Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

The Gospel

Matthew 12

15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23:And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Holy Qur�an

Surat An-Nahl

35: And those who join others in worship with Allah say: "If Allah had so willed, neither we nor our fathers would have worshipped aught but Him, nor would we have forbidden anything without (Command from) Him." So did those before them. Then! Are the Messengers charged with anything but to convey clearly the Message?

36: And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid Taghut (all false deities besides Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth).

37: If you (O Muhammad SAW) covet for their guidance then verily Allah guides not those whom He makes to go astray (or none can guide him whom Allah sends astray). And they will have no helpers.

http://www.theholybook.org/en/a.46849.html

StephenC wrote: Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: The Kaaba: "The present dimensions of the Kaba are as follows: Northern wall 11.03 meters Southern wall 11.28 meters Eastern wall 12.70 meters Western wall 12.04 meters" http://www.kokaniz.com/holykaaba.html   Pretty poor construction for something that is supposed to be the most sacred structure to God. Amazing. Our resident investigator of 30 years is so tongue tied he is only able to pretend that his opinion is worth anything. [quote] I quoted the source that I provided.  Was I wrong in my quote? who said anything about the soucre or the quote?   [quote] As for my personal comment, shouldn't the most sacred temple to God be as perfect as possible?  Or is "lopsided" okay? Or is there some special reason for the odd shape?  how can you be sure something is perfect as possible? the context of the building and its environment determine the manner and ability of construction. Your opinion does not count as fact as to what a building should or should not be. I don't know anyone who would think that "lopsided" is perfect.  Maybe that is the problem here, I have a higher standard than you.

Nice comments, but completely irrelevant to what I stated. Do you have trouble with comprehension or are you trying your hardest to ignore and deflect?

Want to try again?

how can you be sure something is perfect as possible?

the context of the building and its environment determine the manner and ability of construction. Your opinion does not count as fact as to what a building should or should not be.

Let me know if you are having trouble with this?

Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: Andulas: "How many times must I come here and find the questions of a ranting idiot?" Why must you engage in childish name calling behavior?  No one that I know of is forcing you to read or respond to my questions that have remained unanswered with logic and reason. Where is the Peace of Muhammad in your responses?  Does the Qu'ran advocate such hostility? The real question is, why must you engage in childish antics? I did not call you a name. Why do you insist on avoiding the problems in your questions and the reasoning in them? So far, I have yet to find a single, worthy contribution by you. That is a fact. By the way calling you out on your dishonest games is not unpeacful. Nice try. So is "ranting idiot" not name calling or did someone impersonate you? I wish you would spend this much effort in justifying your claims. If the shoe fits, then by all means where it. The label was toward the manner of questioning.   Be honest if you can.  You are a representative of Islam.  How can one trust Islam if its followers are not truthful? The issue is not my honesty. The issue is your intellectual dishonesty.

How is my asking questions (and your refusal to answer them) "intellectual dishonesty?"

You claim that Muhammad is a prophet from God and the Qu'ran (which allegedly was given by a "voice") is revelations from God.

All I ask is for some proof to seperate Muhammad from other claimed prophets (like Joseph Smith, Jim Bakker, Clara Prophet, David Kresh, etc).

Apparently, the "intellectual dishonesty" is on your part in that you refuse to admit that Islam is another "blind faith" religion and there is no proof of the claims.

My suspicions were confirmed during the discussion about the Kaaba.  The imperfections in the sizes of the sides are really not very significant, yet you refuse to accept this established fact!

Why?  Is your faith so weak that you can not view it from an unbiased basis for fear that if you acknowledge the flaws you will lose your faith?

Nothing of man is perfect.  God is perfection.

To claim otherwise, in my humble opinion, is blasphemy against God!

Andulas

"I am sorry if my observations are disturbing to you. They should be. I would be disturbed if I had to play such a dishonest game of rhetoric.

1) The voice cannot be proven, given that it cannot be measured or recorded. So your demand for evidence is out of ignorance. Reasonable historical criticism does not demand or require such an unreasonable notion for proof.

2) I know it was Gabriel due to "confidence". Just as I have "confidence" in many of the major explanations and theories of mainstream secular history.

3) Provide "evidence" of the exodus as told in the bible? Where is the trash and ruins of the many thousands of Hebrews wondering around for 40 years? My request for evidence is completely reasonable, yet you cannot provide me with any evidence with respect to the bible, which you take as your proof for Moses as a prophet. Yet you want something completely unreasonable, even according to modern, historical criticism. "

Your observations do not disturb me.  Even your childish name calling does not bother me.  It disappoints me that you have to resort to such measures when honest discussion would be better.

Andulas:

"1) The voice cannot be proven, given that it cannot be measured or recorded. So your demand for evidence is out of ignorance. Reasonable historical criticism does not demand or require such an unreasonable notion for proof."

Finally, an honest response.  Thank you for admitting that the voice cannot be proven.  Was that so hard?  Did the pillars of Islam fall?  No.  However, asking for evidence (or the admission that it is a "blind faith" issue) is not out of ignorance but something everyone who is considering any religion, should ask.

Andulas:

"2) I know it was Gabriel due to "confidence". Just as I have "confidence" in many of the major explanations and theories of mainstream secular history."

What is the difference between "confidence" and "blind faith?" 

Andulas:

"3) Provide "evidence" of the exodus as told in the bible? Where is the trash and ruins of the many thousands of Hebrews wondering around for 40 years? My request for evidence is completely reasonable, yet you cannot provide me with any evidence with respect to the bible, which you take as your proof for Moses as a prophet. Yet you want something completely unreasonable, even according to modern, historical criticism. "

I have admitted that my acceptance of Moses as a prophet is based upon the fact that the THREE major mono-God religions accept it and there is (to the best of my knowledge) no one disputing it.  Not even pagan religions (to the best of my knowledge) deny this "fact."

However, TWO THIRDS of the major mono-God religions DENY that Muhammad was a prophet from God.  Remember when I suggested (in humor) that we take a world wide vote?

If you asked three people about how good a certain movie was, and all three said it was "great," would you tend to think it was a good movie?  And if two of the three claimed that another movie was bad, which movie would you most likely go see?

At least I, am inquiring more about the unpopular movie (like the plot, the actors, etc) so that I can make a better decision - and you critize me for it?