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Topic ClosedMuhammad and Joseph Smith

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StephenC View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muhammad and Joseph Smith
    Posted: 18 September 2006 at 5:24am

I am struck by the similiarities between Muhammad (Islam) and Joseph Smith (Mormons).

Both were visited by "Angels" and received revelations.  Both had their revelations written by others.  Both acknowledged the existences of Christ.  Both were men of violence.  Both were men of many wifes...etc.

What are the differences?

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peacemaker View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 6:25am
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

I am struck by the similiarities between Muhammad (Islam) and Joseph Smith (Mormons).

Both were visited by "Angels" and received revelations.  Both had their revelations written by others.  Both acknowledged the existences of Christ.  Both were men of violence.  Both were men of many wifes...etc.

What are the differences?

I don't know about Joseph Smith, and I would not like to debate on him. But, you should not address any personality without any evidence in this manner.  

You said about Prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon him ) that he was a man of violence. What is the evidence?

This section is for interfaith dialogue. Quote suitable references to back up your claim. Read the guidelines and warnings in this section before you post anything.

Peace



Edited by peacemaker
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 8:57am

Joseph had two wives, not many, Emma Smith and Liza R Snow....I am a Mormon.  All others were sealed to him (wrongly) after his martyrdom.

Joseph was not a man of violence, but like Muhammed, was forced to defend his people against murder and abuse.  (Look up the Haun's Mill Massacre and the events of Far West and  you will see why the Mormon men marched to Missouri....also the Extermination order by Boggs)

And as for their revelations written by others.  Joseph was translating a text already written in another language.  He had scribes to write as he translated.  He only had the plates for a short time and it made the process go faster.  Also, those that acted as scribes were educated, Joseph only had a 3rd or 4th grade level education. The miracle of the Book of Mormon is its preservation and that it was translated in just 3 months.  June to August of 1829.   

Muhammed, was illiterate and at first had his companions write the revelations upon whatever was handy, then commanding them to memorize it.  The miracle of the Quran is that Muhammed being illiterate could not have composed such a book of prose without divine inspiration.

Both men had witnesses to their miracles, the Angels and the truth that was being brought to them.  Both men were persecuted by their enemies. 

Both men have been villified by those that do not understand them and do not care to understand them.  Both men were humble, giving and loving family men. 

Perhaps you really should do you're research instead of just going off anti-Islamic and anti-Mormon propaganda.

I suggest the book.  "They Knew the Prophet" by Hyrum and Helen Mae Andrus (friends of mine) and http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/history

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ejdavid View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 1:33pm
Angela

Mormans, once the most reviled of American minorities, have long since claimed among the highest positions of respect. It is something worth studying. However, although you reference Haun's Mill, you seem uninformed of the Mountain Meadows episode.

Do you have comment?

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meado ws/12.html



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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 2:36pm

Mountain Meadows????  It was a horrible Tragedy, but there are claims that some of the men in the wagon train bragged about being Missouri Wildcats.  However, John D Lee was excommunicated from the LDS Church and then tried and executed for his crimes.  No one was brought to justice for the Haun's Mill massacre and actually the Extermination Order signed by Governor Bogg's was still legal until 1976.  There are those in every society that are less than they should be.  However, the Mountain Meadows incident was not the doing of Joseph Smith.  He had been killed long before the incident took place.

Extermination Order (Mormonism)

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Missouri Executive Order 44 also known as The "Extermination Order" in Latter Day Saint history was an executive order issued on October 27, 1838 by Missouri governor Lilburn Boggs to have Mormons driven from the state. The order was in response to what Boggs termed "open and avowed defiance of the laws, and of having made war upon the people of this State ... the Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary for the public peace�their outrages are beyond all description." The order was not formally rescinded until 1976.

The law made it legal to kill anyone who belonged to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the state of Missouri. At least 60 Mormons were killed and dozens of women and girls raped, and countless others died from exposure in 1838 under the executive order and resulting forced evacuation from the state (See History of the Church Volume III, preface).

Photo of original document in possession of the Missouri State Historical Society
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Photo of original document in possession of the Missouri State Historical Society

Contents

[hide]

< =text/> //

Background for Order

Accusations from both Mormon and anti-Mormon parties and repeated conflicts prompted the state to forcibly relocate Mormons from Jackson County, Missouri north to areas which had not been previously settled. The extermination order came on the heels of the Battle of Crooked River, a skirmish between state militia who had taken Mormon hostages and a small group from the Mormon militia, which was also recognized by Missouri at the time. The brief battle claimed casualties of 4 men, including 1 state militia and 3 Mormon militia. Sworn statements and word of the battle convinced Boggs that the Mormons were warring against the State and should be removed altogether.

Results

The order directly preceded the Haun's Mill Massacre, which occurred three days later. This mob killing of 17 Mormon men and boys underscored the seriousness of the threat.

Mormons were arrested and forced to gather to the town of Far West, Missouri by a state militia organized in early 1838 by Governor Boggs to deal with the "Indian uprising" in the Western reserves of Missouri, although there are no records of an uprising in recorded history. Church leaders were tried under a military tribunal, convicted of high treason to the state of Missouri for membership in the church and sentenced to death. General Alexander W. Doniphan refused to carry out the order of death given by his superiors stating it was illegal and "cold-blooded murder," as he felt that Mormon leaders should not be tried by a tribunal [1] [2].

In exchange for the return of raped women and teenage girls, and under the agreement not to kill more Mormons, militia members forced Mormon property holders to sign over property deeds and ordered to leave the state in October and November 1838. Church members crossed a frozen Missouri River to seek refuge in Quincy, Illinois. During the exodus to Illinois, more women were raped, older Mormons died from exposure and more Mormon men were killed by mobs.

About two dozen church leaders, including Latter Day Saint prophet Joseph Smith Jr. faced capital punishment and were sent to Prison at Richmond, Missouri and later the Liberty Jail. During a transfer to another prison, Smith was allowed to escape with help from sympathetic guards. Smith and the other Mormons resettled in Nauvoo, Illinois beginning in 1839.

Governor Boggs survived an assassination attempt, despite buckshot wounds to his head and neck. Porter Rockwell, an associate of Joseph Smith, was arrested for the crime, but was later released without indictment after having spent months in jail. His alleged involvement in the assassination attempt is one reason Missouri dispatched bounty hunters to (unsuccessfully) bring Joseph Smith back to Missouri. Modern historians discount Rockwell's involvement, pointing instead to rivalry in the political arena. Monte B. McLaws, in the Missouri Historical Review, determined that while there was no clear finger pointing to anyone, Governor Boggs was running for election against several violent men, all capable of the deed.

The Extermination Order remained active, though likely legally invalid, until it was rescinded by Governor Christopher S. Bond on June 25, 1976, 137 years after being signed. In late 1975, RLDS (now Community of Christ) Far West, Missouri Stake President Lyman F. Edwards invited Governor Bond to participate in the RLDS annual stake conference in 1976. In his address at that conference, Bond presented an Executive Order which noted that "...Governor Boggs' order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and ... (that) the exercise of religious freedom is without question one of the basic tenets of our free democratic republic". He also expressed regret for the "...injustice and undue suffering which was caused by the 1838 order."

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StephenC View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 6:17am
On March 15, 624, Muhammad and his supporters moved against the pagans of Mecca.  This is from the IslamiCity History of Islam section.  There are more about other battles and acts of violence (some in self defense).  Remember, I did not say that Muhammad was a violent man.  I believe I said that he (and Smith) was a man of violence.
 
Jesus Christ showed an act of violence when he made a whip and drove the moneychangers from the temple.
 
Righteous violence in not necessarily a bad thing.  However, some men have gotten their message across without violence.  For example Martin Luther King and Gandi both are known as non-violent men.
 
As for the poster who disputed that Joseph Smith was not a man of violence, another poster referenced Mountain Meadow.  This occurred in 1857 where some Mormons killed 120 men, women, and children allegedly.  It was not a tragedy but a willful attack against innocence people who where just passing through the area.  Some say for the victim's material possessions.
 
Like Muhammad, Smith led an army (the Nauvoo Legion).   While many could argue that they both did it in self-defense and/or at God�s direction, the truth is that both were men of violence.
 
Not to get off Islamic issues, I still stand by my initial statement/question about the many similarities between Muhammad (Islam) and Joseph Smith (Mormons).
 
One prophet hid in a cave for a couple of years and another hid in a cabin.  Both claim to have been visited by an angel then with revelations.  Neither have any proof.  The revelations of both are written by others (and later added to or rewritten).  Both die (Smith is allegedly murdered and Muhammad (according to IslamiCity History section) dies) without any observed visitation by angels.
So why should a person follow one cult (see definition) and not the other cult especially if they are so similar?  I see no real difference between the two or their revelations.
What "test" does a believer in God use to determine a true prophet and a false prophet?
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Saint_Michael View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 8:41am

Anjela,

Joseph Smith had many wives, including other mens wives who were sealed to him while the husbands were on mission, this is fact, not fiction.  This is widely accepted by the LDS Church now.  Go to FAIR and ask the question you may be shocked with what you come up with.

I too have seen similarities between Muhammed and Joseph Smith.  Both were visited by Angels and given a book that denies the Gospel of Christ.  Muslims believe that Jesus was just a prophet, and there was no resurrection (which is the main point of the Gospel, mans redemption and salvation through Jesus Christ).  And Joseph Smith spreading the Gospel of man can become a God, and rule like Jesus, that God the Father and Jesus are not one, but seperate Gods', that Jesus attonement was in the Garden of Gethesame not on the Cross at Calvary, etc...

Both encouraged and ordered their followers to fight with weapons and armies to defend their faith, Jesus never ordered His Apostles to fight to defend the faith, in fact He rebuked Peter when Peter struck the Roman's ear off.

Both were the husband to many wives, both incorporate Jesus into their books, but both also demote Jesus. etc...

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ak_m_f View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 8:50am
Cyber evangelist will never rest until people follow their religion.

[Evangelist 5:6] KJV.

Reading too much bible is not good for the health, go outside and sniff some fresh flowers.....
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