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Democracy and Freedom

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Mohini View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mohini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2006 at 7:07am
Originally posted by Escobar Escobar wrote:

"Democracy" is just the false pretext in which the imperialist west uses to further their imperialist aims...How the hell can u invade a government install a government and call that a democracy??

Democracy arises from the people not from a foreign power...A foreign power can never impose a true democracy on a people...This contridicts the essense of what democracy is...

INstead operating under the pretext of spreading democracy the imperialist futher their imperialist aims...

 

Escobar,

I understand exactly what you are saying.  It's as I said, we do the exact things that we don't want others doing.  We kill people to stop the killing.  We invade countries and force our beliefs on others.  It may be that it is good that Sadaam is no longer in power but at what cost?  Is the cost ever too high?  Did the actual threat actually outweigh the price we have to pay? There was an enormous rush to war and I believe that diplomacy may have worked if given a chance.  I believe Bush is a moron. The biggest losers are going to be our children.  What kind of world are we leaving for future generations? 

Why does a strong nation strike against weaker ones? Because it seeks to impose it's ideology, increase it's power, or gain control over valuable resources. Americans have overthrown 14 governments in a 110 year period of time.  Because they displease us ideologically, politically and for economic reasons. We are now suffering the long term consequences of our actions.  Our children will suffer. 

One of our problems seems to be we are never consistant in our values.  President Reagan supported military regimes in Guatemala and El Salvador that carried out unspeakable crimes until the murder of Hugo Spadafora who was an outspoken Panamanian patriot, then we decided they were a little crazy and too close to the Panama Canal. Anyway, I'm sure you all know the story.

Has anyone read the book "Overthrow" by Stephen Kinzer? It's a great book.  It will really open your eyes (if they're not already) to the root of our evil in this country.  Our government.  Don't get me wrong, I love my freedom but if people in other countries want their freedom, let them fight for it in their country, against their government.  The people of Iraq could have freed themselves from Sadaam.  What I don't understand is how different factions of people can hate each other so much.  Don't they all want the same thing? To be free? To raise familys and live good lives?  Together they could have freed their own country or not.  At least our sons and daughters would not be dieing in this senseless war and we wouldn't be more hated than we already were before the war.      

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liberty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liberty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2006 at 10:02pm

Does Israel, a democracy, have the right to exist?

I ask this question because, from what I know, Hezbollah would like to see the destruction of Israel.  Yet, they are receiving much moral support from the Arab (Muslim) world.  As an American I am trying to make sense of this.

 

 

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Hanan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2006 at 5:39am

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Edited by Hanan
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Mohini View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mohini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2006 at 7:05am
[QUOTE=Hanan]

liberty,

Every human being, every group of people, and every country has a right to exist. (At the moment though, Israel is acting rather suicidal, as if it doesn�t want to live anymore).

I myself can not imagine anyone thinking that Israel doesn't have the right to exist.  God made all people so therefore you exist. In the Christian Bilble the Jews are God's chosen people. That's one perspective. I don't even think Jews like that responsibility pinned on them. That's the only reason the US is always there for them. I don't think Israel expected Hezbolah to be quite as tuff and as advanced as they are. Hezbolah has a lot more support today then they had 30 days ago for sure.

 

 

 

ou write: � they are receiving much moral support from the Arab (Muslim) world.

Yes, it is hard to not always look at things from an American perspective, but I think that if we look closer at ourselves, we�ll realize that we, the so-called Westerners, are not so very different from Arabs/Muslims. Let me give you some examples:

When the US decided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, the moral support from other countries was overwhelming. Many went even further and provided troops, money and logistics. As it turns out, America never captured bin Laden, which was the reason for invading the country, and is now turning things over to NATO.

I don't think that capturing Bin Laden was the only reason that we invaded Afganistan.  There was a whole host of reasons.  We were having to back up and try to clean up the mess that we made when we walked off and left the (can't spell it) mujuhadin after arming them against the Russians.  Our policy failures and occupation in the middle east is why Bin Laden hates us so much. The Taliban is trying to regroup and is still very active in parts of Afghanistan.  If we had either done our job righ the first time and stuck with the people of Afghanistan and helped them rebuild their country they would not hate us. We left them to suffer. We use to be looked at very differently in that part of the world. Not our Christianity mind you but we were looked at as a more caring and supportive nation.

 

WMD were never found in Iraq, which was the reason for invading that country. And, although 60% of Americans do not support the �War in Iraq� anymore, the US continues to receive moral support from many other Western and non-Western countries.

Large scale killings and immoral acts toward innocent civilians  have occurred in both Afghanistan and Iraq, which outrage not only the Arab/Muslim world yet, many Western and non-Western countries are unwavering in their moral support for the US.

Before 9/11, while for decades European politicians, bankers, other public figures and innocent civilians were killed by national and foreign extremists, and innocent American citizens and soldiers died violent deaths in other countries, the US seemed oblivious. Then, immediately after 9/11 the US government demanded total support from every country in the world, �If you�re not with us, then you�re against us� and received it from many Western and non-Western countries.

I wish I knew where to get a list of the countries that actually supported us.  Some of them are little tiny countries you never knew existed, so to speak.  I wonder how much black mail we had to use to get even support from them. And that "if you're not with us you're against us went over like a fart in church. Sorry. Nothing like down home cowboy tactics and he's at it again calling the Muslims "Islamic Facisist".  He has absolutely no diplomacy or sensitivity.  Like I said "He's a moron".  All he does is inflame the Arab world.

Does Hezbollah receive moral support from all the Arab/Muslim world? I don�t know, but I�m sure there are many negotiations and talks going on �behind closed doors� to dissuade and counsel Hezbollah, just as there must have been when the US decided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.

I would say that the Hezbollah probably receives plenty of moral support in the Arab/Muslim world.  Even though there are some moderate Arab countries that are democratic and love peace and prosperity above all else, they secretly hate us and think Bush is a moron as well.  Even Saudi Arabia is beginning to openly criticize us and the Bush administration for all of their ineptitude.  He has yet to be on time for anything. He will go down in history as being the worst president we ever had. He may even out do Jimmy Carter. I can't wait until the imbecile is out of office.  I just pray Jeb stays where he is. Can you imagine a president by the name of "Jeb"?  Mama Mia! I think this country has had enough of the "status quo".

 

 

 

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Hanan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2006 at 7:43am

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Edited by Hanan
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liberty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liberty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2006 at 4:38pm

When the US decided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, the moral support from other countries was overwhelming.

Of course we had moral support.  NY city just had two airplanes crashed into it!  You are comparing the US defending itself to the Hezbollah, which proudly proclaims it wants the destruction of Israel? 

From my perspective, as soon as the middle east, every nation and group, acknowledges Israel's right to exist, there will be peace in the Middle East.  Nothing else Israel or the USA does will create peace there!

If it were not for the fear of retaliation from the USA, do you not believe Iran would begin a full scale assault upon Israel.  For Muslim children to grow-up and live in peace with Jews, Christians, and non-believers alike, Muslim adults will need to think more of the future of their children than the hatred in their hearts.

As it is Muslim children in Lebanon and Palestine go to sleep fearing an early death!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liberty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2006 at 4:53pm

"Every Muslim who is honest would say, I would like to see America become a Muslim country," he said. "I think it would help people, and if I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be a Muslim. Because Islam helped me as a person, and it's helped a lot of people in my community." quote from Imam Zaid Shakir

The United States is a secular country and we like it this way.  Statements like this can only generate anti-muslim feelings in any secular society. 

I think it is great that Islam has helped Mr. Shakir, but Christianity has also helped millions of people, as has Buddhism, Hinduism, but they do not want to control our nation and enslave a people under thier beliefs and religion.  This is why many English fled England to begin with!  I want my children and grandchildren to grow up in a free, secular society!

American Muslims, it is becoming more apparent to me, see themselves as Muslims first and Americans second.  They feel more connected to Muslims in Kuwait than their neighbors in the United States.  This is not a very comforting thought to the average American, nor make it easy for any non-muslim to trust the Muslim community.

 

 

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Hanan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2006 at 7:32pm

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Edited by Hanan
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