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Does the New Testament teach that Jesus ? |
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Tasneem 
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Joined: 28 April 2005 Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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 Posted: 20 May 2005 at 6:52am |
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Hi Robin Hope you'll come back on this forum so that we may clarify some issues. In an earlier post you wrote: "Does this describe the Jesus of Islam? Not at all! The Jesus that is described in Islam is a fictional Jesus. Someone who never existed in history or outside of this physical world. Though the Bible and also non-bliblical manuscripts from the 1st and 2nd Century tell us the Christian story of who Jesus was and even of His death and claimed resurrection, Islam still denies it because their Quran 7 Centuries later says so. Mythology has crept into the Jesus of Islam, the Jesus of Islam is not the one and only Son of God who became flesh and blood for the redemption of man. Do you claim to be a Christian and not see this?" Do you know that if anything blasphemous is said or done against Jesus, it is the Muslims who are far more offended than the Christians? It is the Muslims who quite often react and condemn any disrespect to Jesus. Why would the Muslims feel so deeply offended if Jesus is a fictional character as you describe. This is certainly untrue. A complete chapter has been devoted to Mary in the Holy Quran. Jesus has been mentioned in the Quran a number of times and I could quote all the verses for you. Unlike Christianity as it is practised today, Islam makes complete sense. You may dismiss it by saying that it came seven centuries later. But the only reason it came was because the true message that was brought to mankind by Jesus was distorted. In fact the name of Prophet Mohammed figures in the Bible. Now you find it difficult to explain the concept of trinity and simply say that you accept it because you believe it to be the word of God. The confusion you have about this "trinity" which you are unable to explain has been dispelled in the Quran and the truth has been explained very clearly. Please take the time to read atleast the chapter on Mary in the Quran and we may be able to discuss your claims "The Jesus that is described in Islam is a fictional Jesus. Someone who never existed in history or outside of this physical world." You can read the Quran online either on the Islamicity website or you could go to http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ where the translation of each verse from Arabic to English has been done by three different translators. Edited by Tasneem |
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Cypriot Boy
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Joined: 04 April 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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Posted: 20 May 2005 at 9:28am |
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Do you know that if anything blasphemous is said or done against Jesus, it is the Muslims who are far more offended than the Christians? Where do you get so much of your information? But i take it you have spoken to all the Christians that have made your judgement. May God have mercy on you. |
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Tasneem
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Posted: 20 May 2005 at 5:16pm |
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There is no need to speak to all the Christians to make a judgement. When terrible pictures of Jesus are made such as "piss ..." I don't see the Christians who are greater in number than the Muslims come out and openly condemn and take action against the perpetrators. No doubt some practising Christians & churches voice there concerns but the condemnation is not proportionate to the population and is pretty muted. The Muslims on the other hand are outraged because we respect all the messengers equally but find ourselves helpless when the Christian (who follow Jesus) response is too weak. However, the point I am making is that Jesus is not a fictional figure in the Quran as Robin has indicated. Cypriot Boy If you wish to respond to this specifically you may. |
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AhmadJoyia
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Posted: 27 May 2005 at 8:35am |
I am sorry, I am late in responding to this thread as I think somehow I didn't recieve any notification about its update or I simply missed it in my other emails. Anyhow, coming back to the issue of Jesus asking forgiveness etc. So my brother Robin, do you think, the person named Jesus in NT was actually God? Then should I remind my brother what all he did where only human (exclusively) can do and one of that is to err. Yes, my brother, Jesus did err. He rebuked the lady (by equating her to dogs) who came for his blessings. Other than that, there are numerous other occassions exclusively for humans. Of course you must have double the number of faith based logics to disagree, but all I conclude from this is that they are all based on human conjectures. We don't have any reliable and authentic record of Jesus teachings. All we have in the form of NT is a collection of four anonymous gospels and dozens of epistles by St. Paul and his followers. All your famous quotes to initiate the very debate are based on unauthentic gospels. Yes, unauthentic because their authors are anonymous. At least now you would realize that putting faith on these anonymous books can easily misguide their readers, especially, all they have with them are the christology according to St. Paul. St. Paul, never ever met Jesus in his whole life so from where the authenticity for his literature comes in? only God knows. |
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zenman
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Joined: 16 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Posted: 16 July 2005 at 9:49pm |
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Concept of Jesus nature in theology is called Christology. This was a large bone of contention in the early Christian church there were several schools of thought, one of them was that God could not manifest himself as a man the divine being completely out of creation and therefore the person of Jesus was a kind of phantom that God used for teaching. A competing theory of Christology was that Jesus was completely man and had no divine nature. Yet another theory called the adoptionist theory was that Jesus was adopted by God as his son because of his pure nature. From the mystical schools of Christianity which do not exist anymore claimed that when Jesus made such statements as I am God it was not Jesus the person but God speaking through him, he as logos or word but not the speaker of the word. As such is nature was fundamentally misunderstood as he was not speaking of himself personally and those instances a rather God was simply speaking through in his son Jesus. Also Jesus mentioned when asked if he did not call God his father,do you not call God Father. The nature of Christian dogma evolved over about eight or 900 years in many cases what is now considered to be part of the apostles creed were compromises made by various factions in the early church councils. For instance, let's say that Jesus is both man and God, and we will agree to your interpretation of Mary. These were deals that were done just like modern-day politics. Now for at least 1500 years before Jesus there were various mystery cults in the Middle East that had a figure was the son of God who was born of a virgin who died and was sacrificed then resurrected and brought blessings. Among those were the cults of Osiris,Apis and Dionysus. Now it just so happened that St. Paul had been a member of one or more of those cults. Therefore when Jesus was crucified it was easy for him to see this myth in him. He then went from a Prophet and Rabbi into a savior. The early Byzantine church had bloody pogroms against dissident theologies. In graduate school I poured over all 12 volumes of Adolph Harnack's history of Christian dogma, the classic encyclopedia of the evolution of Christian beliefs. I might also add it's a wonderful cure for insomnia..another issue involved with this matter is that not everything in Aramaic can not be be translated exactly into Greek, and not everything in Greek can be translated perfectly in Latin. There were some tremendous battles over what should have been included in the Gospels as well since several such as the gospel of Thomas are decidedly mystical, and portray Jesus not as the Messiah but a deep and powerful mystical Prophet and teacher. His teachings being not about time but about how to open one selves up to the will of God and be transformed by it. Edited by zenman |
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Angela
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Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
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Posted: 18 July 2005 at 4:23am |
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Okay, here goes. I'm going to add a facet to this thread based on my own church. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We do not believe in a Trinity as Robin has described or the original sin that many born agains claims needs washed with baptism, though we do believe Jesus was the Son of God and the Messiah. Although, we teach a pre-mortal existence. I have never been able to understand the Trinity as other Christian Churches teach the Trinity. Ultimately, that is what caused the Great Schism between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church in 1054. Our Church separates God, the Son and the Holy Spirit into three distinct entities. They are only One in purpose, not in being. The Son offered to come to earth and do Gods will on earth and thus God was Supreme and Jesus was doing the will of the Father. The Holy Spirit gave up his chance to come to Earth and receive a body in order to do God's work as the Voice of God. Jesus does not claim to be a God in the New Testament, only the Son of God, the word made flesh, he is there doing the bidding of God. Now, having said that, discussing the Nature of Jesus and the Atonement on an Islamic website is a futile thing. I do have an off topic quickie question though? What does the Quran say about the Virgin Birth of Jesus?
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AhmadJoyia
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Posted: 18 July 2005 at 8:03am |
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Sis Angela Here are few verses of Quran pertaining to the ministry of Jesus especially about the virgin birth of Jesus. Kindly note that named YUSUFALI in bold at the begining of each verse is the name of the translator and signify nothing else. 003.045 YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah; 003.046 003.047 Edited by AhmadJoyia |
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Angela
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Posted: 19 July 2005 at 11:22pm |
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AhmadJoyia, I want to thank you so much for your reply. I enjoyed reading the passages you posted here and now I cannot wait until my copy of the Quran comes in the mail from C.A.I.R. I am looking forward to reading your Holy Book. It is wonderful to see that even if the nature of Jesus is different, the messages are still there. In both of our faiths, Jesus' greatest example is his obedience to God. Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Angela |
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rbaitz wrote:
In order to understand any of the foundations of Christianity, you have to understand WHY Jesus was sent and died. To understand the New Testament you must at least accept the theory that Jesus was the Son of God, conceived by Mary the Virgin and that he was sent to save all mankind from death. If you cannot grasp that concept, none of the rest of it will make sense.
Since he was a prophet, teacher and example to Muslims, what we Christians believe about him is moot. I believe in Prophets still living, that is a foreign concept to Muslims as I have seen in another forum. When I opened this thread I thought it was a Muslim asking a question of Christians, but when I saw that Robin is Christian, I suddenly became confused what this thread was doing here. I don't necessarily subscribe to what Islamicgirl said about it having no place here, but its a touchy subject because its the major difference in alot of contentions even among Christian Denominations. The Nature of the Godhead and Jesus are best left to a Christian website. 
In the end, to a muslim, Jesus (Isa) was a great prophet, who did not die but was spared by a loving and merciful god. There will never be a different determination on this website. 
Since I'm more curious as to what Islam says about Isa's life and death.