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Ladies Turn

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Patty View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 July 2006 at 3:05pm

I have been doing a lot of thinking about peace, war, hatred, and death lately. Let me tell you it takes a lot of energy to ponder these issues. My feelings concern how these issues have always been handled, and mishandled, throughout the ages. First of all who handled these matters? It has always been the men in society who have had the power and control over the lives of the masses. Women were sometimes given a "token" place of presumed power, but not if her position ever really could impact the decision(s) of the men. And what have the men throughout history done for the betterment of the masses in regards to peace, compassion, equality, and justice? Not much from what I can see. Please understand this....I AM NOT, REPEAT NOT, A FEMINIST IN ANY SENSE OF THE WORD. In fact, I loathe those women. So don�t even go there. I am a rather old-fashioned, stay at home type these days, although I did work up until two years ago, out of necessity. I also learned volumes during those years about human nature.

So, based on all that we see happening all over the world....and it has always happened, make no mistake about that....I believe it�s time women be given the opportunity to take control of the future of mankind. We certainly could do no worse than men have done! We are, afterall, natural caregivers, compassionate, we settle disputes within families repeatedly, manage the finances in many homes, and we have that loving, bonding nature toward people that men do not have. We don�t have those male hormones....you know the ones I mean....which cause us to want to fight and kill. We do just the opposite. We want to soothe, to heal, to protect, and to free the enslaved. If women could have control of the countries of this world, I honestly believe in a period of ten years, you would see no more fighting, wars, bigotry, hate, or discrimination of the other sex.

I believe we women could enlist the aid of men for jobs other than war policies. We would need them to make many repairs, help greatly with the budgets of countries, keep writing great books and make some DECENT movies for entertainment. They would be needed as physicians, engineers, firemen, farmers, construction, and all the other trades in which they are now employed. BUT, they would no longer be needed in government positions involving war policies, because WE, as women working together in unity and solidarity, would have in 10 years eliminated all need for war policies.

IF any man tried to break the peacefulness we have brought to this earth, he would be placed in prison for the rest of his natural life. So, yes, we would also still need men as correctional officers. I am not kidding here. The men, whom I dearly love by the way....I�m married to one, have had centuries to do this....and they have failed humanity miserably! Men from all countries have failed. Based on this undeniable evidence, I believe it�s time for all women to begin to work towards this goal....elect women whom you KNOW will be dedicated to the importance of peace for everyone here on earth. Women with outstanding communication skills. Once we get these ladies in the majority, we�ll clean up this mess once and for all.

God's Peace to All!



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Patty

Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for a friend

Edited by Patty
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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StarComm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StarComm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2006 at 3:31pm

I wonder if you believe in that doctrine of "the great whore" described in Revelations (not that I believe in it)

I mean let us think for a minute..."the woman" being the leader of the world....and an Alien comes along and takes her for a wife?

Well the traumatizing doctrines of the bible about how Eve got Adam out of paradise can play a big role in christian leaders not allowing women to take over i would believe, unless ofcourse that doctrine has a certain "Expandable" quality to it which can be discarded after achieving some long term goal which might have been achieved already, atleast the fundamentalists would not agree with this at all...so there we are back to warfare hooohaa!

 



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And that He is Lord of Al shi'ra(The Star Sirius), And That He destroyed The tribe of 'Ad that was first.

[chapter the star verse 49-50]
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foody View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote foody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2006 at 4:18pm
@Patty

I wouldn't mind women ruling and men not, in one condition. Men give birth. Only fair. But for women to rule and give birth, it is best that no men exist ever period..let the women procrait with each other through science, with two eggs together to give a daughter...then there will be no and no need of men and women alone will rule and exist with full blown blessing lesbiasim...but if women rule and give birth then men is nothing more than a sperm donor..and if I was to have this job position then I would rather be a fertilizer of the earth..OR at least have the ability to give birth and if that is the case then I will become a woman..then it is best that there will be no more men period..then you can have your peace.

You need to understand it from the point of men and from what you are saying, that is not the case. You are looking it from the point of view of women.

Besides don't worry Patty..male human are heading for extinction anyways...so there shall be a big party of celeberation for women all over the world..the entire earth will be for them and they can have all the women and daughters their heart desires.  And also Patty, don't worry about women ruling, we are working to reconstruct male anyways, look at school as a great example..unless boys are like girls they are not going to make it at school..so here is your chance to make men into women, change their brain structure...I am sure that will be the best.

I knew it from my deebest heart that it is only the male that finds attraction to the opposite gender, the women in the other hand only finds attraction to her opposite sex if her opposite sex looks like 99.99% like a female.  This earth is hell.

Oh Patty, just a note. Women are heading for world domination anyways, and you know when that happens..there will be no need for boys. I say to anyone who reads it, ones women rule earth..abort every male child you can have your heart desires, and kill all boys if you can help it. You will be saving them.

Examples of below when women rule, yet when men are ruling and we have the technology to replace women...we can't even think twice about it. We need their love, affection, motherhood, etc. But for men everything is reversed, been a man is hell then you get Patty asking to take the very single role that makes a man unique and special we have nothing. Like declawing a cat then throw the cat in a horde of angry dogs.

Patty if women going to rule...and if I am alive, I am going to beg God to give Mercy of me and take my life and if that means I die at age 34, then be it.  One final note Patty, one of the many signs of evil of minor signs of qiyamah is husband obeys his wife be close to his friends and his father is a stranger to him.  You are not seeing it from the point of view of a male and if YOU SAY TO ME YOU ARE then you are lying because then this topic would not be opened.  If I see it from the point of view of women all over and think hey wouldn't it be cool to have my own children, I can have all the male child I want and off with women...I would stop and think this is not good what if I was a women, I would feel bad, intimidated, etc and I would not open this discussion.  Men will always have the end of the stick, even when it comes to his genetic make up....

My final conclusion I found your remark so offensive it is not even funny, I am a man and I have never hurt anyone physically or caused a murder of anyone, yes I argue but then if I don't argue wouldn't that make me inhuman. I bet you, Patty you fought and argued? So because I am a man and I argued I will be labled evil because of my gender. Why should I have the power depatched from me when because I am a man and been victimized for something I have never done because some other men out there have had the devil instilled on him.  Besides, true islamic men wouldn't even think of killing or harming anyone, these murders and deathes that you see are from western men, most of the eastern men, arabic men, are fathers who are in the street crying so badly at his children's body.  Most of the arabic men out there are dying and toiling and sacrificing and losing their lives early to sustain enough provision and wealth for his family, I found your remark so offensive Patty. So offensive. So offensive. So offensive. So offensive. So offensive. So offensive. So offensive!!

Because of some minority group of men out there who make up most of the crimes the majority of men will be slaves of their women? NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER have I seen anything in the media about a man sacrificing for his family even though that happens every day, never do I see anywhere or talked about..men who put their wives over their heads with pride yet the wives stamp on the faces..yet we accept it because he is a man.  Never have an oppressed men, have his children taking away from him because SHE IS the one who gave birth. But when a man says it came from me, we dismiss it by saying pffft, how hard was that from you? Men are the most oppressed sex actually but I am the only one who talks about it.

There is actually a country in china where exactly what you want is happening in fact. You know what the men are? Nothing but sperm donors, he sits there pushed aside by women as they rule their country. EVEN FATHERHOOD is eliminated, the son stays with the mother and only through the mother's permission can the son see his father, the father stays with his mother and mother orders him around...OOH PATTY OHH PAATTY that is hell!!!! Oh Patty if women rule, PLEASE never have a son and if you do..KILL him! Seriously, kill him! You will save him.
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Men redundant?

by Philipp Wesche

Originally published in Student, the University of Edinburgh Student Newspaper, approx. April 2004. Note: The printed version differs slightly.

The year was 1997. The necessity of old-fashioned sex had already been eliminated by sperm banks, in vitro fertilisation and other fertility treatments. Paternity testing had played its part in social enlightenment. But the announcement of Dolly the cloned sheep in February of that year hinted at what feminists have long carried on their banners - the redundancy of men. Indeed, the aim in creating Dolly was the avoidance of sex and the resulting genetic diversity, with a possible view to maintaining pure female races of some livestock such as egg-laying chickens.

Cloning avoids the formation of eggs and sperm, but in mammals, the genetic clock, so to speak, is only reset in egg and sperm production. Dolly showed ageing symptoms much beyond her years, and these genetic problems with cloning remain to be fully resolved. Meanwhile, in the last half year, two research publications have exposed methods for making egg cells and sperm-like cells from embryonic stem cells. One of the papers, published by a mixed group of researchers from biotech hotspot Massachusetts even demonstrates that the product of merging lab-made sperm and eggs sometimes begins to develop as an embryo. This was done in the mouse, a species genetically very similar to us.

This could mean that within some five to ten years, it could become technologically possible for women whose embryonic stem cells have been collected to have their sperm produced and "father" children. Wombs, after all, are the one remaining limiting resource for reproduction, and the female sex have a monopoly on these (at least until functional artificial wombs can be made), the question begs asking what effect all this will have on society. What role will remain for us humble gentlemen?

Let us disregard for a moment the fact that men are involved in society in many ways, as scientists, politicians, chefs, fathers and lovers, that would be difficult to instantly replace. I am sure mankind would continue if only men's social functions were missing.

Reproductive biology, however, may be a different game entirely. Men can father more than a hundred children. History records many such cases. Women are much more limited in their reproduction. Nine months, one at a time. But when it comes to choosing fathers for their children, women show great scrutiny. Hence males are the exhibitioners of evolution. They show what the genes can really do, and women get to pick the best of the crowd. This may lead to faster elimination of bad genetic variants (caused by mutation) than is possible without men. The X chromosome with its reproduction-critical genes will be particularly well protected by this since men have only one X chromosome. Most mistakes, especially where portions of the chromosome are missing, will show.

So the important function of men may be to show the quality or otherwise of their genes, and allow the female "shoppers" an informed choice. And, hands on hearts, ladies - what could be a better proof of genetic quality than sweet lovin' itself? Ladies and gentlemen, keep faith in your love!

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WHERE HAVE ALL THE MEN GONE?

 

 

 

By Devvy Kidd

June 5, 2002

NewsWithViews.com

 

My comments here exclude those men who have stepped forward with incredible courage since 1913 to face this tyrannical government, and like our Founding Fathers, have paid an enormous price both personally and financially. People like Bill Benson, our fine gentlemen down in the great State of Tennessee and too many others to list.

Americans forget that the Founding Fathers were the "moneyed class" back then. They were farmers, merchants and men of means. They had a lot to lose, both in land and gold. Yet, they didn't hesitate to step forward against the most incredible odds to build a free nation, not just for themselves, but for their women and children.

My comments are directed at the men of this country, who over the past decades:

Sit back in their easy chair reading Newsweek or spend their time bare chested at a football game, well filled with suds to maintain those obscene beer bellies, while they have put their wives and children at risk. This nation is being invaded wholesale with illegal aliens who come into this country and kidnap, rape and murder our women and children. Some are caught, most are not. Why do the men turn a blind eye in pursuit of good times?

These same men will go vote for the same politicians, state or federal, over and over, who refuse to stop this massive invasion of our country putting their women and children at risk. These same men continue to idolize their party "leadership," while that same leadership refuses to stop this invasion of global riffraff, turning America into a third world dumping ground. These same men would rather spend time, not banding together and having a serious discussion with these politicians, but rather put on their expensive gear and go ride their bike up a mountain, see the latest Broadway show or take a day off work to stand in line to buy tickets to the new Star Wars flick. Why is this?

Today the men in this country sit around watching mindless trash like Survivor or Friends on the boob tube, instead of shouting down the roof against state and federal systems that are utterly and completely rotten beyond redemption. Systems and agencies that are putting their women and children into a state of involuntary servitude for all their lives. Instead they sit back with nary a whisper while state and federal judges to uphold this carnage against the people. Why is this?

Black robed judges continue to hand out welfare and benefits to illegal aliens who are legally entitled to nothing but deportation. Instead of holding their elected public servants accountable for this insanity, men just get up in the morning, go to work at the company store, then return home in the evening to their false sense of security. Why is this? Back in 1776, this breed of men would be called cowards.

Today men will spend endless hours with their stamp collection or at the bowling alley while Congress after Congress continues to pass unconstitutional legislation that deprives their women of their God-given rights - all because their "party" says it's good for our "democracy." Why is that?

Today men will ignore the documented truth that the state and federal governments are all in collusion to bring America into a one-world government, but they will believe any lie that comes out of the mouth of their favorite radio talk show host or TV anchorman. Today men are desperately clinging to their comfort zones while their women and children are at risk from a police state being erected around them. Why is this?

Today men will stand for hours on end feeding one-armed bandits in gambling casinos, while the Bush Administration's henchmen (Ashcroft and Mueller) continue to strip their women of their God-given rights, all in the name of "the war on terrorism."  They are putting their children at risk by not demaning this government take the necessary measures to clean out the terrorists in this country, both Chinese and middle-Eastern. Why is this?

For decades, America's men think nothing of spending spend lots of money on music CDs or plunking down big bucks to attend concerts or jazz festivals instead of protecting their own families from state predators calling themselves "child protective services." Everyone with children is now a target. Why won't they band together and surround the state capitols and demand that this evil cease? Back in 1787, the men protected their women and children to the death.

For the older men, their grand children are targets of the state. But, these men have already served their country in the military and now it's time to spend their golden years in the Winnebago, they've done their part. After all, at Christmas they can show the grand children how much they love them by buying them "things" made in foreign countries. Why is this?

Today the men of this country will allow a sleezy, morally bankrupt individual like Bill Clinton get away with treason (selling our most sensitive national defense secrets to the Communist Chinese) because Clinton supports their women's "right" to kill their unborn babies. Back in 1854, this was unthinkable. Today, their blind loyalty is to their political party now instead of what's right. Why is this?

Today men think nothing of sitting down at the local bar every night during happy hour while their women and children are put at risk by agencies like the ATF and FBI making no knock, bust down the door on the wrong house raids, killing innocents inside. It's happened and it will continue to happen. A hundred years ago, this would not have been tolerated in a constitutional Republic because the men would not have stood for it, not for a minute.

While their women and children continue to live in a state of bondage to a tyrannical government, the men simply write checks to the RNC or the DNC, thus encouraging those scoundrels to stay on the same path of the planned destruction of this Republic. By writing a check instead of storming the gates, this gives those men more time for the golf course, doing recreational cocaine or surfing the Internet for countless hours enjoying that great "adult" American pastime called pornography. Their harmless pastime does put their women and children at risk out in society, but they no longer care. Why is this?

While the IRS bleeds a family dry, forcing the woman into the workplace and leaving the children to be raised by strangers, many of whom are pedophiles, the man of the house spends his free time doing the "guy thing" at a NASCAR speedway. Why is this? Why won't these men stand up to this rogue agency called the IRS?

Over the past 40 years, the men of this country have sat back and allowed themselves to be brow beaten into submission and castrated by so-called "feminists" like Rosie O'Donnell and Hillary Clinton (although I defy anyone to show me one single feminine attribute of those females) instead of stand up and saying, "Hell No!"

Hard core feminists aren't out there for equal pay, they're out there to destroy the male and the family unit. How it must gall them that the only way lesbians can "impregnate" their female lovers is artificial insemination by a male sperm.

Over the past 40 years the men of this country have put their material objects and addictions before the well being of the women and children by kowtowing to every special interest group in this country in the name of "political correctness" or for government hand outs. Our nation was built by men who were self-reliant, independent and strong. Today they are tolerant, sensitive and genuflect at the feet of perverts called "gays." Why is this?

The men of this country have laid down their arms in favor of political correctness, declaring open season for two-legged predators on their women and children. Instead of surrounding their state capitols armed to the teeth in defiance of such unconstitutional machinations on the part of cowardly and mentally impaired politicians, instead they grovel on their knees to the likes of Diane Feinstein. This sad state of affairs was unheard of in 1905. Why this inability to resist tyranny now?

PC is a cancer on this nation that has turned a Godly nation into a moral sewer. These men have put their children in harms way via mandatory social indoctrination in the anti-God public school system. Why is this?

The men of this country will go to extraordinary lengths to find the right fishing hole, but they refuse to lift a finger to ensure that their women and children will not be forced into global citizenship under the UN. Why is this?

The men of this country will sit in front of the computer playing games while women and children in different parts of this country are being driven off the land by Nazi-style federal agencies. So what if their fellow countryman will lose his land, his wife and children thrown out into the street? After all, those families in Klamath Falls and too many other places have nothing to do with these other men's lives, so why should they give up any of their free time to stand up to the government to help them? Why is this?

Women in this country spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year on "romance books" whose pages are filled with knights in shining armor and genuine heroes coming to rescue the damsel in distress. Why do you suppose that is?

Why do you suppose the men are allowing their women and children to be put at risk in all the ways described above?

Why are the women the ones out there on the front lines battling this government tooth and nail for our children - ready and willing to die if necessary to protect our own?

Because America has lost it's manhood.

� 2002 - Devvy Kidd - All Rights Reserved



Devvy Kidd is an Advisory Board Member for The Wallace Institute. She is the founder and Director of POWER (Project on Winning Economic Reform). Her web site is: www.devvy.com  E-Mail:  [email protected]


 

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Breeder Reaction

The Benitez-Clark family

News: Does everybody have the right to have a baby? And who should pay when nature alone doesn�t work?

< ="text/" =""> By Elizabeth Weil
Photograph by: Dan Chavkin/L2 Agency

July/August 2006 Issue


#

# Breeder Reaction
Does everybody have the right to have a baby? And who should pay when nature alone doesn�t work?

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Guadalupe Benitez and her partner, Joanne Clark, had been buying frozen sperm at a bank in Los Angeles and trying to get pregnant at home for two years when Benitez finally sought out the services of a fertility specialist. Not at all uncommon�infertility affects more than 6 million Americans, and about 20 percent of them seek help through assisted reproductive technology, or ART. At that point, 1999, Benitez was 27 years old, Clark was 40 years old, and the couple had been together for eight years, since Benitez emigrated from Culiac�n, Mexico. Benitez, a medical assistant, had some infertility benefits at a nearby OB/GYN clinic, the North Coast Women�s Care Medical Group. There, Dr. Christine Brody put Benitez on a hormonal drug called Clomid, to treat her polycystic ovarian syndrome, and also told her that she was willing to oversee her treatment but not to perform inseminations because, as a Christian, she disapproved of lesbians having children.

�When she said that,� Benitez told me, �I was so upset, but she made it better by saying the other doctors would do it for us.� Benitez and Clark tried home inseminations for a few more months, and Brody even did some exploratory surgery. But when the time came to schedule a more effective in utero insemination�a procedure that involves injecting sperm directly into the uterus�an assistant from North Coast Women�s Care called to inform Benitez that no one in the practice would do the procedure, nor would they refill her prescriptions. Benitez demanded to speak with the head of the clinic, who responded by telling her that he, too, objected to helping lesbians have children and would not further her care. �They had just lied and lied to me, trying to brush me aside to do inseminations at home as some form of excuse. But once they found themselves against the wall, they had no choice but to tell me they flat-out wouldn�t do it.� So Benitez sued.

Benitez�s is far from the only case brought by a woman turned down for fertility services. Kijuana Chambers, a single blind woman living in Denver, Colorado, was eventually turned away from her fertility clinic. Among the reasons cited at trial by one of the clinic�s doctors: She was prone to emotional outbursts; she had dirty underwear. Chambers lost her trial in the U.S. District Court in Denver in November 2003. Last summer, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals declined to rehear her case.

Screening at fertility clinics is not just a concern for gays, lesbians, and the disabled. Women over 39 and women with severely compromised fertility are commonly turned down for services or told they won�t be treated unless they agree to use donor eggs. This is largely a matter of economics. Assisted reproduction is a $4 billion-a-year business. The average cost of a single cycle of in vitro fertilization, including medications, egg retrieval, sperm washing, fertilization, incubation, and embryo transfer, is $12,400. Given all the failures and repeat attempts, the average amount spent per baby born through IVF in the United States is much higher: $100,000. Few insurance companies pick up the tab, so patients themselves decide where to spend their considerable money, and they do this largely based on a clinic�s success rate. As a result, many doctors try to game the system, producing high �live birth� success rates by cherry-picking patients. Before being accepted by a clinic, a woman must submit to a battery of tests to determine things like the level of follicle-stimulating hormone on day three of her menstrual cycle. Get a number over 12, and she�s out of luck.

According to Dr. Geoffrey Sher, founder and medical director of the Sher Institute of Reproductive Medicine, the largest chain of privately owned fertility clinics in the world, almost any clinic that can afford to turn down patients does. �I�d like to think most doctors try to be honest. The problem is, you�re confronted with the reality that if you don�t get high success rates, patients don�t come to you.�

�How much selecting is going on?� I asked.

�A lot.�

�How much is a lot?�

�A lot.�


THE PRACTICE OF SCREENING at fertility clinics poses a simple yet difficult-to-answer question: Should there be a right to reproductive assistance? The very fact that we�re asking this question shows how radically things have changed. Up until the birth of Louise Brown, the first test-tube baby, in 1978, if you couldn�t reproduce, you couldn�t reproduce. You adopted or went childless or spent a lot of time with other people�s kids, and that was the end of that. Now, of course, if you want children and they aren�t happening naturally, there are many procedures to try: in vitro fertilization, blastocyst transfer, gestational surrogates, donor eggs, donor sperm, donated embryos�the list goes on and on. In recent years, our legal system has had to grapple with such novel, ART-related issues as the parenting rights of the egg donor who is also the ex-live-in lover of the birth mom, the gestational surrogate who refuses to give up the baby, and the couple who refuses to take the delivery of twins from the surrogate. Embryos have been implanted in and carried by the wrong mothers�who gets to bring up the resulting children? In one very sad case, a bachelor hired a gestational surrogate. After delivery, the baby cried an awful lot. The father killed the child in just six weeks.

Amazingly, in the United States, almost no public policy exists around assisted reproduction: what procedures should be legal, how many babies a woman should be allowed to carry at one time, how old is too old for a woman to conceive. The Vatican, on grounds that creating a baby outside of a woman�s body is playing God, opposes all IVF. In Europe, the enterprise of technology-enhanced baby-making is subsidized and also well regulated. (Different countries stipulate different benefits: A woman is entitled to two cycles of IVF, a woman is entitled to four cycles of IVF, a doctor will implant one embryo, a doctor will implant up to four.) But the U.S. government has neglected to impose even the most basic medical regulations, in part because politically ART is impossible to touch. Who would possibly stand in the way of families having babies? Yet many procedures, most notably IVF, require producing excess embryos. And if it�s unconscionable to create embryos for stem cell research, how can we countenance the thousands being created daily (most of which are ultimately discarded) for couples trying to have kids?

So far in this country no rules have been set. Literally, the only thing you can�t do is use embryos created since 2001 for stem cell research in a lab that receives any federal funding (see �Splitting the Baby�). Other than that, anything goes. Women in their 60s have been assisted in having children. Semen has been extracted, without prior consent, from men who�ve died. In some states, embryos are treated as material possessions and deemed transferable as part of one�s estate; in others, they�re treated almost as children and cannot be harmed or destroyed, and, if abandoned, can be implanted by doctors in surrogates� wombs. Regularly the news is filled with stories: first surviving set of septuplets! Woman gives birth to two sets of identical twins! (Miracle, multiple ART births have become so common that just this spring a Missouri couple perpetrated the first sextuplet hoax, soliciting donations of cash, gift cards, a washer and dryer, and a van.) A new technology called PGD�preimplantation genetic diagnosis�allows doctors to test for genetic defects just three days after fertilization, when the conceptus, not yet technically an embryo, is still in a petri dish. And that�s going to pose a whole new set of moral quandaries: Is it acceptable to screen against cystic fibrosis? What about mild disabilities, say, dyslexia? And what about sex? �To face this issue frontally and regulate,� says Northeastern University legal scholar Wendy Parmet, �we first, as a society, need to come to terms and acknowledge the practice, and say, �IVF and any of the ART procedures are okay except when�.� We haven�t done that, nor are we aided by the fact that so much of the fertility industry takes place outside the centrifugal force of insurance.� So, for now, the particularities around the right to give birth, like the particularities around the right to die, are contested and ill defined. �What we�ve got,� says Parmet, �is a lot of talking and debate going on in professional societies, and not a lot of law.�

The level of public debate about ART is so far behind the technology that we haven�t even decided who should be deciding what�s legal and just: the government, doctors, or patients themselves. Lawyers and bioethicists are fond of explaining that there are positive rights, known as entitlements, and negative rights, known as liberties. With regard to baby-making, a negative right is the right to do as you please, as long as it�s consensual. No matter how poor an idea, no one will stop you from a drunken dalliance and parenting the child who may result. But there is no entitlement to have a baby. It goes without saying: The state will not furnish anybody a child. Nobody can demand a spouse for the purpose of creating a child, and, in this country at least, even if you do have a spouse, that spouse is not required by law to reproduce. All we seem to have agreed upon as a society is that reproducing is deeply meaningful and important, and that any attempts to keep people from doing so�i.e., forced sterilization�are abhorrent and illegal. (The 1942 case of Skinner v. Oklahoma struck down compulsory sterilization even for repeat sex offenders on the grounds that reproduction is �one of the basic civil rights of man.�) Internationally, Article 16 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights includes �the right to found a family.� The International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights states that everybody has the right to enjoy the benefits of scientific progress. But legally this does not add up to a positive, enforceable right to access reproductive technologies. In the United States, there is not even a positive right to basic health care.

Which raises an interesting question: Should infertility be viewed as a medical problem? Says University of Wisconsin Law School bioethicist Alta Charo, �For many years infertility was not regarded as something sufficiently serious that it necessitated care. Treatment was discretionary, not necessary.� RESOLVE and other infertility rights groups have worked hard to change this, as have ART clinics. Yet defining ART as a medical treatment is a bit forced, because �if you use the classic situation of a fertile woman with an infertile male spouse, she never had a fertility problem to begin with,� notes Charo. A more logical line of reasoning might be to view her as having a social, not a medical, dilemma. She does not want to have sex outside her marriage�that�s why she can�t get pregnant. Should society step in to help her? Should this be covered by insurance?

To get around this dilemma, those in favor of greater access to ART like to position infertility as a disease of a couple�a rather unconventional diagnosis. But even if �an infertile couple� gets under the umbrella of medicine, there�s no guarantee of particular services. �You have to start with the fact that in the United States of America, in terms of health care, with certain limited exceptions, you have a right to nothing,� says Parmet. �If I want a hip replacement and I don�t have the money��be it through insurance or otherwise��I don�t get a hip replacement.� And, except for �certain no-no reasons,� Parmet notes, all doctors, including fertility clinicians, are free to choose whom they want to treat. �Anybody can deny me care because my name is Wendy, but they can�t deny me care because of my religion or my race.�

In some states, like California, where Benitez was seeking care, doctors also cannot turn patients away due to sexual orientation, even if the doctor�s objection stems from her own religious beliefs. (Perhaps because of this, when North Coast Women�s Care challenged the initial ruling favoring Benitez, Dr. Brody claimed she refused to treat Benitez not because Benitez is a lesbian but because she�s unmarried, as marital status is not a protected category. North Coast won this round of appeals.) Says Jennifer Pizer, senior counsel at Lambda Legal and Benitez�s lawyer, �The courts say that the religious believer must pick a way to make a living that doesn�t put them in conflict with society�s rules.� In other words, a fertility doctor can choose not to treat a patient for many reasons�the patient is not a good candidate for the procedure, the patient is a jerk, the doctor is too busy�but not because of the patient�s race, religion, sexual orientation, or country of origin. And while a doctor can abstain from doing a particular procedure�say, in utero inseminations or IVF�across the board, such a doctor would presumably have a hard time practicing infertility medicine.

Some conservative legislators are trying to restrict access to fertility services for certain kinds of patients�most notably, single women and gays�and limit what can be done with embryos that result from IVF. Virginia tried to prohibit doctors and other health care professionals from helping single women get pregnant. (The law didn�t pass.) Arizona has attempted to ban the sale of human eggs. (A bill is pending.) Louisiana has succeeded in making embryos �juridical persons,� meaning they cannot be intentionally destroyed, and if they are abandoned, the clinician has discretion over what to do with them. Using ART regulation as a backdoor attack on abortion rights is a worrisome trend, says reproductive legal scholar Susan Crockin. �We�re starting to hear a lot of talk about embryo adoptions even though very few are actually happening. This way, in the public�s mind, you elevate embryos to fetuses, and fetuses to children, and then you can�t do things with embryos.�


AFTER BENITEZ SEVERED TIES with the North Coast Women�s Care Medical Group, she also switched jobs, because her old one required her to be in contact with North Coast and, she told me, she �couldn�t handle seeing and hearing about things that they were doing for other couples that they wouldn�t do for me.� She fell into a depression, in part from worrying whether or not she and Clark should spend their limited earnings on ART. Still, she did not give up on her dream of having a child. Benitez grew up in a family with 9 siblings, and never imagined not having kids. She got referred to another ART practice. Her treatments were no longer covered, but she and Clark decided to pay out of pocket for in utero insemination, twice. When Benitez still failed to get pregnant, they stepped up to pay for IVF. Luckily, Benitez conceived on her first IVF try. The couple�s first child, Gabriel Benitez-Clark, is now age four.

For patients like Benitez, the best and worst thing about seeking fertility services in the United States is that ART is regulated, such as it is, by the free market, and while not every doctor will treat a nontraditional client, for the right price somebody probably will. That somebody, in fact, is frequently Geoffrey Sher, a man whose operation is so big and whose reputation is so well established he can afford not to manipulate his success rates. Sher�s website, haveababy.com, receives more than 1 million hits a month. His institute, composed of 10 franchises, offers a popular �outcome-based� fee structure, allowing any woman up to the age of 42 to pay a lump sum up front and receive a percentage back if she fails to have a baby�not just get pregnant, have a live baby�after three tries.

Sher is a wildly charismatic man, with a sturdy build, thinning dark hair, and a thick South African accent. The morning I met him, at his headquarters in Las Vegas, he was wearing jeans, sneakers, and a white lab coat and feeling full of his powers as a baby-maker. �Ten transfers today!� he announced, as he sat down in a windowless office with walls of white boards for a working lunch with his longtime business partner, Dr. Ghanima Maassarani. Sher believes every person who�s medically fit has the right to access his services. In his 24 years of operation, he�s turned down only a few patients for nonmedical reasons�one being a woman who wanted to harvest her eggs, fertilize them, freeze the embryos, have a sex change, find a woman to marry, and then have his wife carry his babies. Sher came to his open-door philosophy in the early 1990s after a 51-year-old woman approached him with her 43-year-old husband. The woman wanted to get pregnant with a donated egg, and Sher told her she was too old. Maassarani retold the story: �She turned around and said, �But who are you to judge? If my husband were 51 and I were 43, you would not have said that.� We learned a lesson: Don�t make any judgments. As long as the woman is healthy, as long as she has medical clearance, as long as she can hold and carry on a pregnancy, why not?�

Other doctors take differing views. In 2005, Fertility and Sterility published a study concerning the screening practices in art programs. Many clinics have been reluctant to discuss screening because, the authors wrote, �well-intended efforts to prevent the birth of a baby to a parent with a known history of violence against children could perhaps slide into discriminatory or eugenic practices.� According to the study, 59 percent of ART program directors agreed that everyone has the right to have a child, yet only 44 percent agreed that fertility doctors don�t have the right to decide who is a fit parent. Forty-eight percent of responding directors said they were very or extremely likely to turn away a gay couple seeking a surrogate, 38 percent said they would turn away a couple on welfare who wanted to pay for ART with Social Security checks, 20 percent said they would turn away a single woman, 17 percent would turn away a lesbian couple, 13 percent said they would turn away a couple in which the woman had bipolar disorder, 9 percent said they would turn away a couple who wanted to replace a recently deceased child, 5 percent said they would turn away a biracial couple. Are fertility clinic directors really the best people to decide who will be a good parent?

Given such a paternalistic stance, one might assume that fertility doctors would undertake only those procedures that ensure healthy outcomes, but many do not. In the early days of IVF, most doctors� approach to embryo implantation was, as Sher puts it, �Throw a bunch of spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks.� In 1998, for instance, Merryl Fudel, a single, five-times-divorced, part-time airline reservations agent, 55 years old, sought and procured fertility services (IVF with donor eggs) and gave birth to quadruplets. This seems like a miracle, until you learn that the babies were born three months premature, one died eight days after birth, the others will likely have ongoing medical problems, and the hospital bill, largely footed by the state, topped $2 million in the babies� first four months.

In 2004, a review of scientific literature conducted by Johns Hopkins, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Society for Reproductive Medicine found that the biggest risk of IVF is the one we�re all aware of anecdotally: multiple births. More than 32 percent of IVF births involve �multiples,� or more than one baby, compared to 3 percent in the general population. Nearly anything that can go wrong with a pregnancy goes wrong more often with �higher order births��and the more babies a woman is carrying, the more frequently things go wrong. Babies born as twins are hospitalized twice as long as singletons, and over the first five years of life, their medical costs are three times as high. Babies born as triplets have a significantly greater number of cognitive delays. The average cost of a triplet birth exceeds $500,000.

Within academic medicine it is widely accepted that in most instances clinics should be practicing �single embryo transfer��that is, placing only one embryo in a prospective mother�s uterus instead of two, three, or more. Single embryo transfer is mandatory for most women in many European countries. The practice is voluntary and unpopular in the United States.

Why? Because by definition when a woman arrives in a fertility clinic, she very much wants to have a baby and has not had an easy time doing so. Since most families are paying for ivf out of pocket, if a woman wants more than one kid, there�s a big economic incentive to go for two at once. (�They all want twins,� says Rene Danford, patient coordinator for the Sher Institute. �Boy-girl twins. That�s what they want. You�re done!�) And while multiple embryo transfer is no more likely to result in a baby for women under 36�it�s just more likely to result in multiples�for older women it raises what can be pretty bleak odds, making the client happy and bolstering the clinic�s success rates. The same is true of using donor eggs. In our pay-to-procreate system, the fertility doctor is also a businessman. Sher, arguably the best fertility businessman out there, speaks for many when he says, �My philosophy is it�s not our job to tell people what to do. If someone says, �I want four babies,� the answer is no. If someone says, �I want three babies,� the answer is no. If someone says, �I want two babies� and she has half a uterus because she was born that way, the answer is no. But if somebody says, �I want to have twins� and she�s healthy and I see no reason why she�ll have a particularly complicated pregnancy, the answer is, �Okay, I can do that.� �

Were ART covered by insurance, insurers could pressure doctors into lowering the multiple birth rate, and everyone would save money�including insurers, because art is relatively cheap compared with births of multiples. It would also help mitigate against the biggest injustice in the American ART system: the fact that if you are wealthy and infertile you are much more likely to have a baby (or two, or three) than if you are infertile and poor. But presently only 15 states mandate group insurers or HMOs pay for any form of ART; of those only 7 insist insurers pay for at least some IVF, and of those 2 mandate the IVF benefit only if a spouse�s sperm is used to fertilize his wife�s egg�no donated egg or sperm, lesbians or singles need not apply.

European governments have stepped in and regulated, to mixed results. In 2003, Italy enacted Europe�s most restrictive policy, stipulating that only long-term heterosexual couples have a right to access IVF, no more than three eggs can be fertilized at any one time, and all fertilized eggs must be transferred to the uterus simultaneously. Italy has since seen pregnancy rates for women utilizing IVF drop from 38 to 30 percent. In 2004, England began limiting all doctors in all cases to implanting only two embryos. Zero women over 44 gave birth in England last year.

To skirt such rules, a Danish company plans to build a fertility ship, sailing in international waters, where people could sidestep their own country�s regulations and pay for the services they want�be it transfer of multiple embryos or insemination with anonymous sperm. Fertility tourism already exists�middle-class Americans go to Israel, where services are cheaper; wealthy Europeans come here, where more treatment options are available.

None of this, however, answers the question: Is there, or should there be, a right to reproduce? Though perhaps thinking in terms of rights is not the best way to frame the problem. As Mary Warnock, former chair of the Committee of Enquiry Into Human Fertilization and Embryology in the United Kingdom, points out in her book Making Babies: Is There a Right to Have Children?, deep wishes easily slip into the language of rights, and patients who feel themselves to have rights over their doctors fundamentally change the doctor-patient relationship. Our system is already plenty skewed by the idea that if you throw enough money at your infertility problem, you will conceive and the problem will go away. �The patient becomes a client, the doctor obliged to provide what the patient wants. The doctor becomes more like, say, a hairdresser,� Warnock writes. �People may well listen to the advice of their hairdressers, and will certainly rely on their hairdresser�s skill, which they do not themselves possess. But in the last resort the hairdresser is the servant of the client.�

Benitez�s case is again on appeal and could reach the California State Supreme Court this fall. Lead counsel Pizer sees the case as seeking to establish a seemingly simple point: that the same framework used to protect people from discrimination in all public settings should also be used to protect people from discrimination in a fertility clinic. Yet at the heart of the case is a more emotional question: �Who is deemed acceptable to be a parent?� asks Pizer.

Benitez views her own case in less theoretical terms. �I want to make sure that these doctors can�t do this to anybody else. It was horrible.� She is not looking forward to taking the stand, nor to seeing Dr. Brody�s face. But for now, at least, she has little time to worry. Ten months ago she gave birth to Shane and Sophia Benitez-Clark, a pair of twin girls conceived through IVF.

Elizabeth Weil is fascinated by the ways we build our families in the United States, and the general lack of public discussion surrounding them. A contributing writer for the New York Times Magazine, she is the author of They All Laughed at Christopher Columbus, which chronicles Gary Hudson's quest to build the first civilian spacecraft, and coauthor of Crib Notes, a cradle-side companion of facts and charts for new parents. Weil's work has appeared in Time and Rolling Stone and on National Public Radio's "This American Life." She lives in San Francisco.

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Patty I start to think it is the best way to go..two women getting married and having baby girls is the way to go. I feel sad for that boy over there, he should have been aborted however.  But I think we should fight for women to women only and we should work into exterminating men all together.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2006 at 6:15pm

Foody, you managed to take every single thing I said and twist it.  I have never said anything about women marrying women...I don't believe in gay marriage.  There is no conspiracy to "do away with men", just to allow women to have the opportunity for once during our time here on earth, to see the possibility of our gender perhaps doing something productive to end wars.  I realize you are "going through" a difficult time regarding male/female relationships.  This is not about that.  This is about PEACE.  And only peace. 

I want to see the world turn in the direction of peace and equality for ALL people.  I try to see all people as a Child of God.  Not just those of my own culture, race, gender, religion...but everyone I see as a child of God. 

My opinion is that since the beginning of time, men have controlled all that developed in regards to wars, weapons, fighting, etc.  I am for giving women a chance to turn things around for the better. 

I stated in my very first paragraph that I am not, and never have been a feminist....that I adore men, and I love my husband dearly.  I am just an old-fashioned, ordinary woman.  I don't wear fancy clothes or makeup...I'm usually sitting around in jeans and an old blouse.  I am not wealthy and I don't care about material things.  I live very simply in a small cottage in the woods with my husband and our dog.

Maybe I'm just a dreamer....but I believe there's a better way to achieve peace than the path we have taken for generation after generation.  NO disrespect is meant to any men, so please don't feel that I am disrespecting you.  This is only an opinion I have, and it goes along with my overwhelming desire for world peace. 

God be with you....

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote foody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2006 at 6:26pm

I undersand Patty but have you not realized that all the prohits out there who are the most peaceful of hearts, soul, and who seek nothing to but to unite humanity in a peaceful life in islamic way are MEN. That it is infact NOT men persay as in the gender itself that is culprit while not denying that for each human being there is a beast within them, an animal inclination I might add..but in truth men could have this qualifications if it was not so difficult to be given that apportunity. Patty do an observation with the boys at school who are nurturing, who are smart, who are capable of achieving peace and see what culture tells him of it, NO, you must be dumb, NO you must be violent, NO you must be this and that and when he follows that norm...he is pointed as an evil source of being.

Patty we live in a very cruel world and if you look at the majority of hard working islamic civilian good men you would find what you are talking about are in there already in men as we speak. But they are so concentrated in surviving in this world to raise a family, to please their spouses, having a wife is not easy feat, working so hard to protect their families that they have nothing else to think about but that.  Why can't women achieve what you are saying without having to take the role of men anyways? Aren't women right now inputting alot in the cummunity and society at hole, achieving peace at all without taking men's job. As much as your intention is good Patty, when you take away the very thing that distincts a man from a woman he feels useless he feels unwanted, he feels redundant...he feels what the point it is not fair..not only women have piower but they can produce, not only women are better at this and that..they would start to feel resentment, they would start to feel that God hates men and favours women, because god have blessed women with so much and gave men nothing..they would feel so bad things...Patty it is not easy. While you are intentions are good you would find that it would do more harm than good and the only way you can do what you want is to eliminate men all together. Practically speaking that is the only way you can achieve it..because if there is ONLY man left in a world of women who rule the world in an iron fist that man himself would feeeeel like this is what hell is composed of.  You take the car from the man and you take his life.

 

World peace can be obtained right now united men and women together not one taking control of the other. You know very well THAT THESE SO CALLED men out there the politicians DOESN'T AND WILL NEVER represent the majorty of good men out here. The violence increase in men in society because of many factors, don't attack the abvious but look deep inside the source of the abvious.

If you see a boy been disruptive in the house, causing a whole scene, etc, blah, blah instead of thinking, he is a devil boy, bah, I don't like him..look at his sister isn't she an angel...that will increase the resentment between the boy and his sister and increase his problem. But when you look at the root of the problem you will find the reason that boy is so disruptive, it is because his life is hell, his father is abusive or he doesn't have a daddy to discpline him well and civilize him well, his mother is drinking, etc, you will find that the only way that the boy can express his anger is throw this method. Boys are different than girls. When you find that problem and don't do anything about it, that boy will grow up to be a criminal, rapist or even a politician who will cause hovic to society, but if you take the boy's living and change it..you will find he will calmn down and become an angel himself to grow up to be a peaceful and even seeking peace civilian. That is an example Patty of what I am talking about, you need to findo ut the prfoblem.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2006 at 8:43pm
Is there any technical things that can be done to fix this thread.?
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Honestly, I'm sick of all this divisive talk about what sex is better at being a leader or what not......First off, we must realize how impartial we are to our sex therefore, we cannot make some objective view of truth. therefore in light of that a woman in a leadership role of the world may not be the best leader. This can easily be said about male leaders. Frankly, i don't care what sex my leader (My president I mean) is nor do I care what culture. What I do care is the intellectual capacity of my leader which is something George Bush lacks!

The best leader is someone who serves the people to the best of his/her human capacity. The first obligation of any leader is to serve the local people who voted, that meaning the people of that country. Before a person can be a leader of the world the person must understand how to be a leader among the "paupers." all this talk about how bad men are (which I find offensive and demeaning to good men such as myself) and how worse the world is. Remember men aren't the only ones that live on this planet. There are other women here as well. Even if there aren't women in leadership roles there are women who play an important part in society. So if society fails, both men and women who contribute in that society fail as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Megatron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2006 at 6:14pm
Hey Patty,

Your idea is not a new one.  I know of a Israeli-Palestinian women's organization whose philosophy is yours.  Get the testosterone sabre rattling men out of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, replace them with women and you'd get a peace plan in a few months.

I'm not going to say your idea is wrong, because honestly and I mean this, it might actually work if it somehow got implemented.

But then an idea occured to me.  In that issues of state-building, men have attained positions in government which have blared the bugles of war in almost every instance of human conflict.  War is considered wrong but it builds nations.  It creates superpowers, which dominate.  So if you were to contruct societies with female leaders, invariably, a male leader would take the reigns of power somewhere else and try to take over the peace-loving female lead societies.  Forcing these female societies to take on beligerent males in defence and counter-attacks.  Then you're back to square one.

Also, consider that power corrupts.  Women haven't attained the power men have but if they did, would they behave differently from men?  Probably not.  Look at Margaret Thatcher and Queen Victoria.

It's a sad thing in this world that the more God gives people, I find the more evil they do with it.  Beauty, money, power, intelligence for the most part throughout human history has caused more misery than happiness.

I gotta really stop writing such long posts.


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