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Where is the Injeel? |
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fatima 
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 Posted: 29 June 2006 at 9:11am |
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so Allah swt knew in His complete knowledge the mindset of shaytan but shaytan was being a perfect slave. So would that have been just to punish shaytan because Allah knew the hidden motives. He gives everyone a chance to choose the good, Now it is second Ayah of Surah Mulk that Allah swt created life and death to see which of you do rightous deeds. How is that negative brother? |
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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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BMZ
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Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
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Posted: 29 June 2006 at 9:15am |
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Angela, I have not elaborated yet. I have not even said much. Please bear with me. There is no cop out.
For 50 years or so there were no gospels. Only Paul's letters were flying around. Qur'aan was already in the hearts and minds of Prophet's companions, while what Jesus preached was not even memorised in the hearts of his disciples at all. They had narrated to others who had narrated to some others till there were so many gospels written by many people. In case of Qur'aan, whether it took 5 years or 150 years or 500 years, it was written down with all verses as revealed to Muhammad. Qur'aan was not written down by various authors telling stories. So much was written by men that the preaching and teachings of Jesus became like "salt in the flour" and more gospels were neeeded to find what he taught. Men who wrote the gospels are not even known by their real names and identities. No one truly knows who wrote what and for who. Matthew wrote for Matthew, Luke wrote for Peter, John wrote for John or Paul. No one knows. Even Christian scholars agree on this. Can we believe that,"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." this was taught and preached by Jesus? This was the view of John, not Jesus. Hence, we can say that this was not the Injeel. Injeel is what Jesus taught and preached. Jesus only preached and taught. What did he teach? He taught the Torah. The Book Torah was his book. What Jesus taught and preached is the Injeel, a knowledge full of wisdom, that was given to him by God. When we read the statement,"Thou shall worship only thy Lord God.", we know that was spoken by Jesus and we accept it as Injeel. The entire stories written about him and the people are not what he taught. As such they cannot be Injeel.
His followers never bothered to write it down during his short ministry. After he was long gone, then it started by Paul taking the lead role as fast as he could, by circulating his letters. Only then people realised and started writng but men's messages grew in size more than the messages and teachings of Jesus. Initially it was all oral teachings and everyone had some parchments but not the entire teachings. One can see serious differences among Paul, Barnabas and the elders at Jerusalem. Had people followed his true teachings and preachings, there would not have been any need for so many gospels to have been written by many and there would have been no need to have even four gospels canonised. In short, the gospels do contain the teachings and preaching of Jesus but they contain more material from men. That is why, all Hadith literature was kept away from Qur'aan to make sure that the Word of God did not get mixed with the words of men. Angel, hope you are reading this.
Edited by bmzsp |
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Israfil
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Posted: 29 June 2006 at 9:21am |
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Fatima, So God gives everyone a chance even though he KNOWS in the future that they will do bad? So if God knows I'm going to wreck my car why would he give me a chance to prove him wrong by not getting into an accident? Sorry to throw this off topic but I'm astonished at your belief |
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fatima
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Posted: 29 June 2006 at 9:42am |
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brother you a finite being, a creation can never prove infinite creator wrong. Allah swt through His Mercy gives every one a chance but Him being All knowing know the result, does that make sense to you |
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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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DavidC
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Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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Posted: 29 June 2006 at 9:58am |
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I also think Fatima's assumption obout life being a test of some kind is wrong. I think it's a training level for the afterlife; a chance to improve our condition through hard work and practice.
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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ummziba
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Female Joined: 16 March 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1158 |
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Posted: 29 June 2006 at 10:14am |
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David, of course you can believe as you wish, but, for Muslims, Allah is very clear about this life being a test. Here are just a few verses from the Qur'an where Allah tells us this is so: "And most certainly shall We try you by means of danger, and hunger, and loss of wordly goods, of lives and of (labour's) fruits.....Qur'an 2:155 "And know ye that your possessions and your progeny are but a trial; and that it is Allah with whom lies your highest reward." Qur'an 8:28 "Behold, We have willed that all beauty on earth be a means by which We put men to a test, (showing) which of them are best in conduct." Qur'an 18:7 "Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. To Us must ye return." Qur'an 21:35 "Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, 'we believe', and that they will not be tested?" Qur'an 29:2 Hope this helps you see why Muslims do believe this life is a trial/test. Peace, ummziba. |
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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Angela
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Posted: 29 June 2006 at 10:49am |
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Acutally, it was more like 20 years, not fifty. The Gospels date from around 50-60AD for the earliest, the Crucifixion was around 26-34 AD depending on your accepted date of the birth of Christ. The original Apostles would have still been alive at this time. Not just Paul, mind you, but Peter, James, John, Simon the Zealot, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, James the Younger, Thaddeus, Matthias. Some of them were executed, but not all. Wouldn't you think they would have countered Paul's claim if they were not taught the same thing???
Most scholars agree only that there were many scriptures attributed to the teachers of the authors. However, if not by the hand of those Apostles but by their students. Jesus ordered them to go forth and teach. I don't think they all went forth teaching the same doctrine and yet all had it wrong.
You can't pick and chose just because it agrees or disagrees with later doctrines. My Church gets accused of this all the time, but its like this...if you throw out part, you must throw out all. Because if you want to accept part ONLY because it agrees with you, then you're not using the empirical data properly. I would use the example of the Epistle of Barnabas (an apostle) and the Gospel of Barnabus (a 15th century forgery). There are HUGE errors and very hard evidence of its date. The two works are often confused and the latter dispite its proven forgery is used as evidence because it supports a theory. This defies all archeological standards.
I disagree with this assessment. The reason they were gathered was much the same reason there are weak Hadiths and strong Hadiths. The more witnesses and accounts you have of the same event, even with minor differences build for a stronger case. The reason the Council of Nicea was called was to combat the many heresies that were happening. By canonizing which books were the most authentic and rejecting the ones that were the most unreliable, they gave the ability for the spreading of the word without worry of Gnostic Heresies and such to leak into the larger Church. The Bible is largely historical account. However, if you have 12 witnesses telling one story and 1 witness telling another, who is the jury supposed to believe.
I'm sure you are aware of those that take Hadith as scripture. The example I use is the stoning of Adulterers. Its is not in the Quran, anywhere. However, giving them lashes is very much in the Quran. No matter how long people have a scripture or how pure it is, there will always be a deviation. You have Muslims that SWEAR that the punishment for Adultery is stoning, because of a hadith. They are putting the words of Men higher than the words of God. The trick here is the Bible is not like the Quran. Its not 23 years of revelation to one Prophet, its a collection of Prophets. Its also part history book. You're right, to an extent this causes confusions. However, I have found at times the Quran to be impossible to understand without the historical context of the revelation. Why would got reveal its permissible to kill traitors? Because there was a problem with that at the time. For the most part, the historical context is within the Bible. |
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AnnieTwo
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Joined: 26 May 2006 Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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Posted: 29 June 2006 at 10:50am |
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fatima, if it took 22-23 years for all the revelations to be made
and another 2 years for it to be put into book form, that is about 25
years after the first revelation.
I have read them all and find none that accuses the Jews or Christians of altering the text. |
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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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And Angela, I hope you got me right this time! 
DavidC wrote: