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Where is the Injeel?

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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2006 at 10:09am

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Angela you said it absolutely right that Allah swt does not change His sunnah and we are been told of this in Holy Quran as well. But let me remind you that no Prophet (as) was sent to arabs between the time of Ismael (as) and Sayyidina Muhammad (saw). For majority of scholars and historians the time span between Ibrahim (as), father of Ismael (as), and Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) is round about 4000 years. Although through His Mercy He sent Prophets (as) to bani israel in succession, that was not necessarily His sunnah for the rest. So you see not sending a Prophet (as) for 1400 years is not a new thing. I think it is very simple and easy thing to understand that because Allah swt wants to give a fair trial to His creation, He promised to save the Last revelation.

This is why we believe Muhammed (pbuh) to have been a prophet of God.  No one was sent to the Arabs in a long time they had dwindled in unbelief and needed to be brough away from their pagan ways.  However, God has sent Prophets to all his people.  We also have a slightly different concept of Prophethood.  Prophets are not infallible, they can make mistakes.  But, each Prophet is given a dispensation (time and place) and a people.  I have seen the Promise to save the Last revelation.  But look at the Ummah, they can't even agree on whether or not the headscarf is obligatory.  The Book itself might not have changed, but those that follow the Book are as diverse as any religion. 

now you yourself explained it beautifuly the concept of word made into flesh. Yes Allah swt said 'be' and Isa (as) was born to a virgin Maryam (as). But the rest of the sentence, you yourself wrote two examples with difference of a word but a big difference to the meaning. Now every one knows that only the red part of your book is attributed to Isa (as). Language of Isa (as) was what? How many different languages is it been translated into? Lastly how do you seperate word of Isa (as) from divine words? I am not sure whether you have read some thing in original language and then its translation or not but I have. And translation always fall short, few many words are used for one term, some times not even the right ones. So how do you know what was the real sentence of 'word was god'?]

You see, the Bible has gone through many hands.  That is why I also have my Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.  I also have my Prophet to clarify.  I have a copy of the Bible that was a non religious translation.  It was done by language scholars versus Church authorities and based off historical and linguistical facts.  Its full of notes about the events going on around the text and also includes many of the apocrypha.  I love that version, its very easy to read.  But when I question something in the Bible, I have other sources to turn to for answers.  The Book of Mormon was preserved by the hand of God and brought forth through his Prophet Joseph Smith.  The Doctrine and Covenants was given directly to the Prophets Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodriff and Joseph F Smith. 

I can turn to these to know what in the Bible is truth and what isn't.  I also have the blessing of the Temple ceremony, where the most sacred of God's teachings are kept just as in the days of King Solomon.

No one can ever claim an alteration in Holy Quran, we kept Word of Allah swt seperate from even the words of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw). And alhamdulillah those words are safe and at hand in its original language. Allah swt says in Holy Quran,

I have seen quite a lengthy article on the possibility that there has been alterations in the Quran using the fragments found in Yemen and a former republic of the Soviet Union.  But these texts are being kept from non partisan scientists.  So, we'll never know.  A neutral scientist not out to prove or disprove anything would be needed. 

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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2006 at 9:51am

Patty,

Elohim is the God of Worlds without Number.  Heavenly Father.  Though we believe there to be other Gods, that is an often mistaken concept.

Frankly, Patty.  There are three main reasons I don't come out and say what Mormon's believe. 

First, every time I have attempted this, non Mormons feel the need to correct me on their misperceptions of what we believe.  You just did that with your own description.  You are not Mormon, you have not been INSIDE the Temple ceremony.  You've read the Book of Mormon, but chances are, you haven't read the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. (where the real doctrine and beliefs are).  I get extremely tired of having to correct people and defend from anti Mormon crap.

Secondly, everytime I start to explain Mormon beliefs, I attract a nutcase like Meng or Athanasius.  I have been harassed unmercifully in the past via PM, Post and Personal emails.  It kinda makes one alot less willing to open up.  It gets really old to be attacked everytime we open up. 

Thirdly, unlike the other Christians (in their own opinion) any attempt to teach only results in the claims were are proselyting and trying to covert.  Therefore, since this is a muslim site, I prefer not to have to deal with those attacks.

I learned several months ago, I'm not allowed to express my faith here.  As the ONLY Mormon on this board, I'm alone in defending myself.  And as a new convert, it puts me at a huge disadvantage. 

But, to answer you're rather flippant question.

We do worship Christ.  However, the Glory goes to the Father, the Son is a servant.  We believe in a Godhead, not a Trinity.  The Holy Spirit is not part of the Son or the Father, the Comforter is his own entity. 

I could get really complicated and explain that Jehovah (Jesus) was the God of the Old Testament acting on behalf of the Father, but then we'd just spiral out of control and next thing I know, I'll have a PM inbox full of evangelical nonsense.  I'd just rather not deal with it.

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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2006 at 2:05pm

Fatima,

I'm not "wrapped" up in philosophy I was merely addressing your comments. I was merely addressing your comments concerning the knowledge of God. I do not wish to get off topic here so therefore like yourself I quit in this process. I'm sorry that my faith in everything I read is steady. If you read my thread "Crisis of Faith" the past judgements against me has caused me to re-evaluate my faith in Islam. Rather read everything and believe everything I read I investigate what I read which in the Qur'an God commands all Muslims to do.

Philosophy is not a science where you sit around and think up things to piss people off. It's a natural investigative science much like a natural science where you need an Observation, Hypothesis, Theory, Communication and Conclusion. Philosophy is the summation of all of these.

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm a critique of your writing. I'm sorry. The fact that I'm reading your posts is that I actually "listening" to you. Please don't think I'm close minded or anything.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatima Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2006 at 11:46am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Brother you are so rapped up in the absolute truth of philosphy that you are not seeing the straight forward truth infront of you. If philosphy was anything to do with the reality, it would have been sciences.

NOw I put a bright colour paper along side a dull colour like grey and ask a kid to chose. You know what kids go for bright colour, i know that but how am i effecting his dicision? I am not. And you know what you never going to agree with anything that I say. I know that through experience of reading your posts, but how am I having any effect of you never listening? I am not. But your philosphy will prove it some how. Ironic it could never prove itself but khair.

I hope you dont mind but i am not going to reply to any of your comments on this thread. If you want to discuss this particular issue, please open a new thread.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2006 at 9:54am

Fatima you said:

>>>>>Now His perfect knowledge and His will dont inhibit our free will. His will is giving us sight and option of able to chose either good or bad. It is upto us what we choose but with His perfect knowledge He knows what we going to choose. Take example of behaviour psychology, even though you present a little child with many options, kids most likely would respond in a manner we would expect. You give them option of watching a cartoon or some documentary, 9 out of 10 is cartoons. This is what us limited, finite beings can predict, who only know through experience, cant really read the mind of a child. Now think about our dear Lord, Most High, He said in Holy Quran that He is closer to us than our jugular vein, He is between us and our heart, He knows what our ownself whispers to us. So why is it strange for you to acknowledge the fact that He knows our choices.<<<<<<<<

Not trying to derail discussion, only addressing Fatima's comment to me here so please excuse me.

Fatima I have to say your example is quite interesting however it is not always the best example however I appreciate your intent. Honestly the propblem here that I've encountered (which is why I chose to not write my thesis on in Philosophy) is the knowledge of God and Freewill.

God's Knowledge and Freewill are strictly religious/spiritual perspectives of individuals not whole societies however it is important to know how the influences of religious text have on people. If I am made aware that God is All-Knowing and knows what I did in the past, what I'm doing now and what I'm doing in the future there truly is no "Freewill." First let us examine Freewill then examine God's knowledge.

First off, Freewill is an action or movement without external/internal restriction. Freewill is absolute and independent of another influence. This simple definition is established here. God, whom is infinite and contains the maximum abilities (in accordance to the human understanding of what maximum is) such as infinitude, power and the like.

Since God has infinite knowledge on past, present and future its obvious that in order to communicate with his most intelligent crection, that being us he spoke to the prophet in regards to this matter. So now that we know this let us examine past, present and future.

God knows that I washed my car at 10:00am yesterday 6/30/06

Look at Present:

God knew I ironed my clothes at 9:30am 7/1/06

God knows I will graduate Police Academy 8/14/06 at 12:30pm

Looking at this from the secular point of view I am totally unaware that God knew what I did in the past, present and future because I am not equipped with the proper understand ing ofGod's knowledge. Therefore my actions are do not correspond to the knowledge of God and therefore unrestricted due to my ignorance of God's knowledge.

Looking at the religious point of view if I know that God will chastise me for a specific act(s) my actions from thus, do correspond to the knowledge of God because God knows my past, present and future. Although God's knowledge specifically does not change my behavior the fact that there is chastisement for sin which are personal actions of trangression, will influence my behavior. Therefore there is no freewill.

For some people, the problem with the knowledge of God is that if he knows you will end up in Hell there is no room for the imporvement of the individual therefore any action from hence forth is solely nihilistic. From the religious perspective one may act good for a specific time, then later on in life will commit to an act which is spiritually horrific, or something which ultimately violates religious law.

One thing I always say to myself so long as there is law, ther eis no such thing as freewill. How can Islam be freewill if the premise of Islam is Submission? If one understanbds the concept of Free then one cannot make the concept of Free and Submission interchangable either.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatima Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2006 at 5:32am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Angela you said it absolutely right that Allah swt does not change His sunnah and we are been told of this in Holy Quran as well. But let me remind you that no Prophet (as) was sent to arabs between the time of Ismael (as) and Sayyidina Muhammad (saw). For majority of scholars and historians the time span between Ibrahim (as), father of Ismael (as), and Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) is round about 4000 years. Although through His Mercy He sent Prophets (as) to bani israel in succession, that was not necessarily His sunnah for the rest. So you see not sending a Prophet (as) for 1400 years is not a new thing. I think it is very simple and easy thing to understand that because Allah swt wants to give a fair trial to His creation, He promised to save the Last revelation.

now you yourself explained it beautifuly the concept of word made into flesh. Yes Allah swt said 'be' and Isa (as) was born to a virgin Maryam (as). But the rest of the sentence, you yourself wrote two examples with difference of a word but a big difference to the meaning. Now every one knows that only the red part of your book is attributed to Isa (as). Language of Isa (as) was what? How many different languages is it been translated into? Lastly how do you seperate word of Isa (as) from divine words? I am not sure whether you have read some thing in original language and then its translation or not but I have. And translation always fall short, few many words are used for one term, some times not even the right ones. So how do you know what was the real sentence of 'word was god'?

No one can ever claim an alteration in Holy Quran, we kept Word of Allah swt seperate from even the words of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw). And alhamdulillah those words are safe and at hand in its original language. Allah swt says in Holy Quran,

[ 5:116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
[5:117] I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

now an interesting point what a translation can do, this one above is by shakir but if you look at the part i highlighted in yusuf ali, he translates it as '"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things'.

But as i said alhumdulillah Holy Quran is present in its original form and thats what sort of gives it away that Allah swt is saving the revelation by keeping its language alive.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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DavidC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2006 at 12:30am
It's a pleasure discussing faith with you, Andalus.  I'm looking forward to oue next conversation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2006 at 8:39pm

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Hello Andalus,

So the Quran says the prophets were inspired, but does not mention a written document until David.  Noah's laws must be derived, and are not scriptural so I think we agree and my statement was correct.  We have no written scripture from Noah; only exegesis.

Hi David.

We know Noah had a covenant. We know he had laws. One cannot assume that "laws" would not be written. In fact, it makes more sense to assume that he was given something and it was written down, and the Torah touches on parts of that era that were relavant to Moses.

The Quran says that he was inspired as the Prophet Muhammad(saw) was. The Jewish tradition says that NOah had a covenant and law. This is evidence that allows one to conclude with a strong degree of confidence that Noah had a revelation, and it was written.

For the sake of argument, lets say it was not written. There was still a revelaiton with Noah. Noah had laws. If he chose not to write them, then that was his choice. Either way, by the time the Torah was revealed, the laws of Noah were no longer relevant to Moses, and it was not preserved.   

Originally posted by David David wrote:


The injunction against pork, or in the Islamic case, shellfish, being abrogated are weak hooks upon which to hang the truth.

The case where pork was allowed to one group and not to another is a prime example of one law being contradictory to something that was once premissible. Thats all I need to bring my point home. Just one example. It is not that they are weak hooks to hang the truth, it is more that they are an obstacle to your thesis.

Originally posted by David David wrote:

  I think we would be better served in discussing the role of the law by taking up the discussion with BMZ about the sermon on the mount.  It is directly on point, and has wide applicability to Christianity and Islam.

 I have given the forum one example of a law that contradicts a former scripture, which is no longer preserved. That point, as far as I am able to understand, up holds my earlier contribution.

 

Originally posted by David David wrote:

We haven't heard from you on this point yet.  What's your opinion?  Do you think the Sermon on the Mount is likely to be part of the authentic injeel, or do you think it is unlikely? How would you go about sorting out authentic injeel from the gospels?

It is too difficult to know if the sermon on the mount is even attributed to Jesus, which is why I normally do not spend much time with topics based upon common verses of the NT with an "implicit" nature.

It is not a tenent of my faith to have to work to find the injeel. I simply know that Jesus had some inspiration. I do not know if it was written, or orally transmitted, and if the message was specifically relevant to gentiles or any other people. Jesus served his purpose to his people.

I do know that the NT today, and of the 3rd century, is not the injeel. I do not find any real benefit in trying to ponder it.

Enjoy the rest of the topic!

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