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Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.

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zulqarnain View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zulqarnain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2006 at 9:29am
Look everybody. I agree taht "Common sense" is man's tool of evaluating logically, and that Allah's Plans cannot be understood by human minds. The more we study of God's Plan, the more puzzles there are to solve. The educated Christians should eveluate their religion as far as their logic can reach. A word from Allah ceases to be His Word, if it is not compatible with modern times, for He knows the future. This verse from the Bible is a fabrication of an author.
Look now, you people have to admit, e.g. if you had to choose a religion and you are pretty well educated, you would choose the religion which is most logical and is compatible with modern times. I won't argu further, because it would deviate from the topic
Every soul is responsible for it's own action, nobody can be held responsible for the other, even a follower of a teacher should analyze his teachings before he follows it.
And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107)
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Patty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2006 at 6:18am

BMZ said:

"The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later.  It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking  anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin."

Jesus said to them in John 8:32 �And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Verse 36 �Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Jesus continued to give His disciples more information on His purpose for coming to earth. Mark 8:31: �And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again�

John 12:23-25: �But Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified." Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

There are many other Gospel verses spoken by Jesus, but these I believe point out the fact that Jesus did speak of the importance of His death for the redemption of our sins.

God's Peace.



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DavidC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2006 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere.  You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven. 



I said believe, not just say you believe.  Hypocrites need not apply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2006 at 7:35pm

Zulqarnain,

Jesus came into this world with the following prime message:

"You shall worship only your One God and you shall worship that One God with all your hearts, your minds and your souls." (My quote showing the key message)

The entire Law and the Universe revolve around this. Jesus did not come here to carry people's sins or anybody's sins. That is not what he taught himself openly and that was never his line of teaching.

The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later.  It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking  anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin.

God Almighty's Mercy and Compassion has been known to the mankind, even before the arrival and exit of Jesus. That Mercy and Compassion extends to everything. You will find this clear verse in Qur'aan.

No soul shall bear the burdens of anyone. The already-burdened ones would not want to bear any additional burdens of their own kids, family and relatives. They will say,"I am already burdened, don't you see I am so over-loaded! You go and carry your own!".  



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Patty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2006 at 6:13pm

This is what I believe qualifies as "common sense", and is a great part of my religion as a Catholic.  It shows the immense mercy of God toward ALL mankind, and is one of many reasons why I am Catholic.

"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*)

God's Peace.

Patty

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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:15pm

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation.

I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation.

And the discussion is wandering off topic...

Not necessarily.  If the topic is Jesus did not die for our sins, a fundamental part of that is who receives the Salvation and who doesn't. 

If you believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and do good deeds, then salvation can be had.  But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere.  You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven.  Therefore, in my mind, you can't be a good person and do good works and go to hell just for not accepting Christ. 

The question is when Christ died.  Was it to erase sins or to conquer death (given death being the result of the Original Sin)?

Are my sins erased just by his death, or by my own repentance and works? 

What about those Muslims who pray to God 5 times a day and ask forgiveness for their sins?  Would go not accept their repentance just because they claim Jesus as their beloved Prophet and not God's Son?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:01pm
But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation.

I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation.

And the discussion is wandering off topic...
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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:51pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo AnnieTwo wrote:



And I base my opinion on Scripture and not on "common sense."  Common sense is really man's common sense.  That does not mean it is God's view.

The Bible has been in the hands of "mankind" for 2,000 years.  There is always the possibility there are missing parts.  Jesus said their are others not of this flock...

The righteous people who died before Messiah Jesus were saved by Messiah Jesus.

Are you so sure?  If they didn't accept Christ, then how are they saved through him....as far as my knowledge goes, we're the only ones who believe in redemption for the dead.

God has to have some sort of a plan for those who have never heard of Jesus, but those are getting fewer and fewer.

Hearing the name and understanding the message are two different things.  I have a friend in Russia who grew up under Communism.  She knows the name Jesus Christ, but she knows and could know nothing else. Now in her adulthood and with her culture, she has no concept of the True and Living Christ.  Only a few pictures on the walls of long empty churches after 75 years of State imposed atheism.  Things are improving, but just hearing of Jesus does not mean the person got the "message".  Same with People exposed to Islam.  They may know who Muhammed is supposed to be, but was it presented to them in a way that allowed of a concious acceptance or rejection.  If from the very beginning you are taught false prophet, false teachings, false doctrine, chances are, you aren't going to look any further.

If someone rejects God's salvation after understanding it, then it is at their own peril

This is exactly it....they have to understand it to truly reject it.  So again, there has to be another way....

Angela, it is not up to you to decide, it is only up to God.  He has provided the way.

He has provided ways...I don't think he's provided only one.  DavidC showed you in scripture where rejection of the Son does not mean you're going to hell. 

Annie

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