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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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Annie wrote: "What would you expect a Jew to say? Well, I would expect a Jew to say that they understand their own religion. What would you expect them to say, or rather, what do you expect them to say when you go to them for interpretation? You did say that you do that, didn't you? Personally, I would think that if you are a student of religion, then you should go to the source of the belief. That does not mean you agree with that belief, or think it is correct, just that you want to be as authentic as possible. I thought that the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because he didn't fit any of the criteria: (direct from some Jews) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will: A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28). B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6). C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation" neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4) D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will being over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of Messiah 1. MESSIAH AS PROPHET 2. DESCENDENT OF DAVID 3. TORAH OBSERVANCE 4. MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS 5. VIRGIN BIRTH 6. CRUCIFIXION 7. SUFFERING SERVANT Edited by Mishmish |
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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AnnieTwo
Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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Mishmish,
Personally, I would think that if you are a student of religion,
then you should go to the source of the belief. That does not mean you
agree with that belief, or think it is correct, just that you want to
be as authentic as possible. And that is what I do. I go to the source. Just as I go to the source in Islam. I thought that the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because he didn't fit any of the criteria: (direct from some Jews) This
is correct and it is not correct. There was no definitive view of
what the Messiah would be in first century Judaism and there was a
belief that the Messiah would be divine. The
Jews were looking for a warrior Messiah, someone who weilded a sword,
but that was not the kind of Messiah that Jesus was or that God
wanted. Jesus was the direct opposite. He did not have a
bloody sword. His message was one of peace, turning the other
cheek, going the extra mile. He defeated the Romans and all other
pagan religions by claiming that there was only one God and that one
God was the only God there is. And that Jesus was God's Messiah,
the one who was to come and defeat the world, which he did by dying on
the cross for your sins and for mine. I would never put my salvation in the hands of today's Jews. Annie
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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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Those are a confusing bunch of criteria.
Several argue against themselves. Take the "Son of David" one. OK, Jesus was born of a virgin. But Jews don't believe that, so how do they use it as an argument? The argument is absurd - they believe in the virgin birth only to disprove Jesus' prophethood, then disbelieve it for anything else. I've got to class them as sophistry. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Patty
Senior Member Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Mishmish, one of my scholarly "hobbies" is studying Jewish antiquities. I think you would enjoy reading some of Flavius Josephus' works. He was Jewish, born just four years after the death of Jesus. Josephus was born Joseph ben Mattathias in Jerusalem in 37CE. Briefly, he was a priest, soldier, and scholar. Here is a brief statement he made regarding Jesus (he first wrote in Aramaic, but later his more detailed works were written in Greek, the most well-known language of the day:)
Do the Christian gospels record actual events during the First Century A.D./ C.E., or are they the ecstatic visions of a small religious group? There are no surviving Roman records of the First Century that refer to, nor are there any Jewish records that support the accounts in the Christian gospels --- except one. In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account:
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Patty
I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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Well, I have noticed that the New Testament lists Jesus geneology through Joseph, who could not have been his father, back to King David. I have asked why this is, but no one answers my question. Since it was written that the Messiah was to be related to King David through his father, if Mary was a virgin, wouldn't that automatically disqualify Jesus as the Messiah? I assume they use it as an arguement because Christians believe it. You can't really have it both ways. Either Jesus was born to a virgin and is not related to King David through his father, or he was not and is related to King David through his father, who may or may not be Joseph. |
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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"I would never put my salvation in the hands of today's Jews.' The Jews might feel the same way... |
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Angela
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
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Actually Mishmish, Mary too was a descendent of David. Mary's Father, Joachim or Eliakim (Eli) was a descendent of David. And at the age of three, her father and mother Anne dedicated her to the Temple. The Quran states she is the sister of Aaron, meaning she was descended from the line of Prophets. 019.028 So, Joseph was assigned as caregiver and husband to Mary, he was not the mortal father of Jesus. |
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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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But the Bible still lists the geneology through Joseph.
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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