1 Timothy 2 and the "silent" women |
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AnnieTwo
Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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Posted: 03 June 2006 at 10:17am |
<>1 Timothy 2 in context: 8Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension. 9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. NASB These verses do not fit with what we see in the rest of the New Testament, where women were first witness of the resurrection; where Paul speaks of women as apostles and deacons (Romans 16); where he expects them to be praying and prophesying in the assembly (1 Corinthians 11), where 'there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave not free, no male and female, since you are all one in Christ Jesus' (Galatians 3:28). In particular it does not fit with the practice of Jesus himself. The key to these verses is to recognize that it is commanding that women, too, should be allowed to study and learn, and should not be restrained from doing so (verse 11). They are to be 'with entire submissiveness'; this is often taken to mean 'to the men,' or 'to their husbands,' but it is equally likely that it refers to their attitude, as learners, of submission to God, which of course would be true for men as well. Then the crucial verse 12 need not be read as "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man." It can equally mean: "I don't mean to imply that I'm now setting up women as the new authority over men in the same way that previously men held authority over women." But why might Paul need to say this? When interpreting Paul or anyone else for that matter, you need to know what was going on at the time. We have only Paul's side of this; what was going on to make him say these things? There are some signs in the letter that it was originally sent to Timothy while he was in Ephesus. And one of the main things we know about religion in Ephesus is that the main religion�the biggest Temple of Artemis (that's her Greek name; the Romans called her Diana) was a massive structure which dominated the area. As befitted worshippers of a female deity, the priests were all women. They ruled the show and kept the men in their place. [What a turn of events!!] Now if you were writing a letter to someone in a small, new religious movement with a base in Ephesus, and wanted to say that because of the Gospel of Jesus the old ways of organizing male and female roles had to be rethought from top to bottom, with one feature of that being that the women were to be encouraged to study and learn and take a leadership role, you might well want to avoid giving the wrong impression. Was Paul saying that women should be trained up so that Christianity would gradually become a cult like that of Artemis, where women did the leading and kept the men in line? That is what verse 12 is denying. Paul is saying, like Jesus in Luke 10, that women must have the space and leisure to study and learn in their own way, not in order that they may muscle in and take over the leadership as in the Artemis-cult, but so that men and women alike can develop whatever gifts of learning, teaching and leadership God is giving them. The first verse (8) is clear. Verses 9 and 10 follow, making the same point about the women. What's up with Adam and Eve? Why does Paul bring them into this? Remember the basic point is that women too must be allowed to learn and study as Christians. Well, the story of Adam and Eve makes the point. Look what happened when Eve was deceived. Women need to learn as much as men do. Adam, after all, sinned quite deliberately; he knew what he was doing, he knew that it was wrong, and he deliberately went ahead. The last verse about childbirth: Paul does not see it as punishment. Childbirth is not a curse.
God's salvation is promised to all, women and men alike, who follow
Jesus in faith, love, holiness and prudence.
And that includes those who contribute to God's creation through
childbearing. Annie PS: I intend to interpret some verses that someone
else brought up in regard to 1 Corinthians and 1 Peter 3. Maybe
tomorrow. |
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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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The early Christians saw women as gateways to sin. Sex was to be avoided except for procreation, and even that was not considered such a good idea. Women were used a deacons because baptisms were done in the nude, but the idea of women as portals of sin was universal at that time.
Thankfully scripture has been revealed more fully since then, but AnnieTwo's theories are suppositional. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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AnnieTwo
Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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Please define "early Christians." We are discussing what is in the New Testament and not what men did afterwards, sometimes hundreds of years afterwards. I think that the "church" used some of what Paul said to suppress women. I think they knew what Paul meant but misused it to their own uses. It was a question of men trying to put down women and used Paul to do it. How could they ignore Jesus? Paul would have abhored that and so would have Jesus. Women have a very important place in the church and they had that position in the early church as they do today. Many women are pastors and deacons in the church. According to my Catholic friends, women are still having a hard time being priests. This is causing a problem within the Catholic church because men are leaving and/or are getting very old. Women could fill the void, but are prevented from doing so. It is not the same in the Protestant churches. Many women are pastors in their churches. Sex only for procreation is another subject. Does this mean that once the wife becomes pregnant that all sex should stop? Desire stops? God did not make humans that way. That in itself should tell us that God intended the pleasure of sex to be more than just for procreation. Too bad that people cannot use the brain that God gave us, isn't it, David? Baptisms were done in the nude to signify new birth. Out with the old, in with the new. Annie |
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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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By early Christians I refer to the Apostolic Fathers - Mar�ion, Tertuillian, Justin Martyr, Iraneus etc.
My point was that women were not considered equal in those times, and were actually thought to be dangerous avenues where sin could enter the church. They were not misusing Paul; Paul's anti-woman message was entirely part of the times. Paul thought women and marriage were best avoided (1 Corinthians 7). Scripture has been revealed more fully today, but the early Christians' belief system was quite different. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Patty
Senior Member Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Annie said, "According to my Catholic friends, women are still having a hard time being priests. This is causing a problem within the Catholic church because men are leaving and/or are getting very old. Women could fill the void, but are prevented from doing so." There are very good reasons why women will not be ordained as priests in the Catholic Church. It is because nowhere did Jesus choose any woman as a disciple, or apostle....and they were the first priests. If He had wanted women to be priests we have no doubt He would have chosen one while he was here on earth. But He did not do this. He gave absolutely no sign and said no words to indicate He wanted women to perform as a priest. Additionally, as all Catholics know, during the ceremony of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, when men are ordained into the priesthood by the bishops or cardinals, the new priest receives a "mark" on his soul, similar to the one we receive at the Sacrament of Baptism, which can never be removed, NEVER. The priest acts in "persona Christi", in the place of Christ, when celebrating mass, hearing confessions, or administering any of the other five Sacraments. Since he is in EVERY WAY the representative of Jesus during the administration of Sacraments and during mass, a woman cannot become a priest. However, we perform all other duties within the Church. The one and ONLY position we do not hold is that of priest, for the reasons I stated above. God's Peace. |
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Patty
I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
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Patty
Senior Member Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Men are to honor and love their wives:
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Patty
I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
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AnnieTwo
Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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Further than that, David, if you set religion aside, you see women being put down all over the place by some men and in some very subtle ways and some not so subtle ways and they aren't using holy books to do it. I don't know what it is. Is it a macho thing? A feeling of inferiority on the part of men? What I mean by that is: are some men "angry" that they have to rely on a woman for their sexual needs and sometimes the woman says no? I think there are a lot of men to do not see women as their equals. I don't know why. Annie |
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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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AnnieTwo
Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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Hi Patty,
There are very good reasons why women will not be ordained as priests in the Catholic Church. It is because nowhere did Jesus choose any woman as a disciple, or apostle....and they were the first priests. If He had wanted women to be priests we have no doubt He would have chosen one while he was here on earth. But He did not do this. He gave absolutely no sign and said no words to indicate He wanted women to perform as a priest. I think that Jesus showed that men and women were equal. He had a lot of women followers and many became leaders in the very early church. So since women were allowed to become leaders there must have been some concensus among Jesus' Apostles that this would be acceptable to Jesus. Weren't there women leaders in the Old Testament? I would have to research that. But if Jesus did not think that women should be priests and pastors I would think that he would have said so and he didn't. Do you think there will come a time that women will be allowed to be priests in the Catholic church. My Catholic friends think so. Good wishes to you, Annie |
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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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