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They say that Allah hath begotten a son

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George View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 May 2006 at 8:22am

What is going on with the following verses in the Qur'an?

 

"They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" (Surah 10:68)

And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. Surah 21.26

They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. Surah 2:116-117

 

The use of the word "offspring" seems to imply that Allah thinks that Christians believe that sex was involved by Allah in the conception of Jesus.  Is it?

 

What is Allah trying to tell us?

 

Thanks

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Abednego View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abednego Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 9:01am
Originally posted by George George wrote:

What is going on with the following verses in the Qur'an?

 

"They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" (Surah 10:68)

And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. Surah 21.26

They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. Surah 2:116-117

 

The use of the word "offspring" seems to imply that Allah thinks that Christians believe that sex was involved by Allah in the conception of Jesus.  Is it?

 

What is Allah trying to tell us?

 

Thanks

This has the makings of an fascinating discussion. I have the goose bumps!

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BMZ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 9:01am

George,

Nothing is going on with the verses in Qur'aan which you quoted below. Relax and take a deep breath please.

From you, George: "What is going on with the following verses in the Qur'an?"

Nothing is going on in Qur'aan in it's Arabic. You are reading it in the translators' English, not an English translation done by God.

 

You quoted, George:"They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" (Surah 10:68)

 

Here, the translator has chosen the word "begotten" from the Bible. And then Allah says that Allah does not need a thing. We are things to Allah. 

You quoted George: "And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. Surah 21.26"

 

Again, Allah denies begetting any son. 

You quoted, George: "They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. Surah 2:116-117"

 

Again, Allah denies begetting a son and goes on to say that only Allah deserves Worship and nothingelse. After that Allah goes on further to say that to create anything, Allah says Be and Lo! it is done. This is to show that Jesus was created by Allah's command. 

 

From you, George: "The use of the word "offspring" seems to imply that Allah thinks that Christians believe that sex was involved by Allah in the conception of Jesus.  Is it?"

 

Where did you get that word "offspring" from and please quote the verse. Allah gave offsprings to many of the Old Patriarchs and their old and barren wives.

 

Even the Christians and Muslims believe that no sex was involved by Allah/Yahweh/YHVH/Haschem, in the conception of Jesus. Allah simply Commanded "Let Mary conceive Jesus and Mary did." That's it. So simple. If God can say,"Let there be light" and there was light. 

 

Then why can't you believe that God said,"Let there be a child conceived by Mary, without any man touching her!" Mary conceived.

 

From you: "What is Allah trying to tell us?"

 

Allah is trying to tell us what I wrote above.

 



Edited by bmzsp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 9:04am

Abednego,

"This has the makings of an fascinating discussion. I have the goose bumps! "

I had some, I just passed some to George.

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George View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 9:32am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

George,

Nothing is going on with the verses in Qur'aan which you quoted below. Relax and take a deep breath please.

If I were anymore relaxed I'd be asleep. lol

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

From you, George: "What is going on with the following verses in the Qur'an?"

Nothing is going on in Qur'aan in it's Arabic. You are reading it in the translators' English, not an English translation done by God. 

Are you saying that the verses cannot be properly translated from the Arabic to English?  Why don't you post the Arabic and then give the translation.  I am particularly interested in the Arabic word for "begotten."  Thanks.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

 

You quoted, George:"They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" (Surah 10:68)

 

Here, the translator has chosen the word "begotten" from the Bible. And then Allah says that Allah does not need a thing. We are things to Allah. 

What is the Arabic word for "begotten?"

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:



You quoted George: "And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. Surah 21.26"

Again, Allah denies begetting any son. 

What does Allah mean by the word "begotten or begetting?"

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:



You quoted, George: "They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. Surah 2:116-117"

Again, Allah denies begetting a son and goes on to say that only Allah deserves Worship and nothingelse. After that Allah goes on further to say that to create anything, Allah says Be and Lo! it is done. This is to show that Jesus was created by Allah's command. 

 

I'm only interested in what I highlighted, BMZ.  We are talking about Allah and begotten a son and stuff like that.  What does Allah mean by "begetting a son."

 

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

 

From you, George: "The use of the word "offspring" seems to imply that Allah thinks that Christians believe that sex was involved by Allah in the conception of Jesus.  Is it?"

 

Where did you get that word "offspring" from and please quote the verse. Allah gave offsprings to many of the Old Patriarchs and their old and barren wives. 

 

I did quote it, but if you missed it, here it is again:

 

Quote

 

"And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. Surah 21.26"

 

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

 

Even the Christians and Muslims believe that no sex was involved by Allah/Yahweh/YHVH/Haschem, in the conception of Jesus. Allah simply Commanded "Let Mary conceive Jesus and Mary did." That's it. So simple. If God can say,"Let there be light" and there was light. 

 

I am happy to hear that Muslims do not believe that Christians believe that sex was involved in the conception of Jesus because they don't and never have.

 

Then what is Allah talking about in these verses?

 

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

 

Then why can't you believe that God said,"Let there be a child conceived by Mary, without any man touching her!" Mary conceived.

 

Who said I can't believe it, not I.  You are straying from the subject, BMZ.

 

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

 

From you: "What is Allah trying to tell us?"

 

Allah is trying to tell us what I wrote above.

 

I hope Allah understood what you said better than I did.

 

Could you please just answer my questions noted above? 

 

Thank you,

 

Peace

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George View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Abednego Abednego wrote:

Originally posted by George George wrote:

What is going on with the following verses in the Qur'an?

 

"They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" (Surah 10:68)

And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. Surah 21.26

They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. Surah 2:116-117

 

The use of the word "offspring" seems to imply that Allah thinks that Christians believe that sex was involved by Allah in the conception of Jesus.  Is it?

 

What is Allah trying to tell us?

 

Thanks

This has the makings of an fascinating discussion. I have the goose bumps!

Goose bumps.  Yes.  Sort of like thinking of a hot dog, wouldn't you say so, Pal?

Peace

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 2:54pm

Maybe this:

“They say: “Allah hath begotten a son”: Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. (Quran 2:116-117)

 Is something in the nature of a corrected, simplified and more inclusive restatement of this (quiz: can anyone identify the author and who “they” are, without doing a “Search?”  I wouldn’t have been able to):

“… After this substance had been placed outside of the Pleroma of the Aeons, and its mother restored to her proper conjunction, they tell us that Monogenes [King James Version “begotten”], acting in accordance with the prudent forethought of the Father, gave origin to another conjugal pair, namely Christ and the Holy Spirit (lest any of the Aeons should fall into a calamity similar to that of Sophia), for the purpose of fortifying and strengthening the Pleroma, and who at the same time completed the number of the Aeons …” 

Serv

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DavidC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 5:39pm
I guess Marçion, Servie. Based on the reference to Greek Philosophy.

Am I close?
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