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In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of God.

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BMZ View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 May 2006 at 2:34am

It's hours past your bedtime. Go to bed, David!

for you wrote: "My interest is in the fact that the Qur'an indicates that Allah intended for there to be confusion as to the source of Jesus' power.  Can you help research authentic tasfeer on this point?"

That is why I wrote that 'premptive' post to Angela.

Good Night & Best Regards

BMZ

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DavidC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2006 at 1:23am
Hello AbRah,

I am indeed a Christian, but I was only teasing our friend BMZ who seems to be quite a devout Muslim.

I am here to learn about Islam not to convince you of anything.  I am completely baffled by the current trend of debating Christian theology here - it seems remarkably pointless.

My interest is in the fact that the Qur'an indicates that Allah intended for there to be confusion as to the source of Jesus' power.  Can you help research authentic tasfeer on this point?
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2006 at 11:20pm

Hi David,

That was a good one.  In fact, George at one time was so confused on another site that he had almost a suit ready for getting me baptised.

Yes, God Almighty gave him the permission and the blessings and made him perform a few miracles once in a while but that was NOT an everyday affair. Jesus could not do those miracles on his own otherwise he would have done it daily resulting in a huge number of followers including that bad Chief Priest.

I wish he had done that!  

Had it been a daily affair, we would not be talking today and the rebellious Israelis, I mean the Jews would have submitted to God under the guidance of prophet Jesus.

It is a pleasant day here, the skies are dark grey and I was quite chirpy when I wrote that at mid-morning.

Best Regards

BMZ



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2006 at 11:05pm

My response to DavidC "The Qu'ran says Jesus raised the dead and created life from clay.  And you say this is just a magnification of his own spirit?  Then Jesus would have to be Allah."

Jesus is a powerless man for he depends on God's help and permissions so Jesus is not God for there are no powerless gods . During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles.  God tells us that Jesus said:"“I have come to you with a sign from your Lord.  I make for you the shape of a bird out of clay, I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s permission.  I heal the blind from birth and the leper.  .And I bring the dead to life by God’s permission.  And I tell you what you eat and what you store in your houses....” (Quran, 3:49). Jesus is a powerless man so Jesus is not God: Jesus is quoted in John 5:30, as saying: “I can of mine own self do nothing."

The prophets of God had done some miracles but they were not God so Jesus was not God too for they were the servants of God and they did the miracles with the permission and help of Allah(God)!  Let us compare Jesus with Elijah: According to Quran and Bible Jesus raised the dead and Elijah did the same (I Kings 17:22).  So did Elisha (II Kings 4:34). Both Elijah and Elisha were not God so Jesus was not God too. Please remember that Allah is One and Only and we are His servants who are dependent on His permission and help. Without His help and permission we cannot do anything.

 

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2006 at 10:17pm
BMZSP,

The Qu'ran says Jesus raised the dead and created life from clay.  And you say this is just a magnification of his own spirit?  Then Jesus would have to be Allah.  Are you getting baptized tomorrow or are you just up at the computer a bit too late

I think the Qu'ran is clear that Allah granted these special powers to Jesus.  And if you think we Christians are confused about the divinity of Jesus, please remember Allah seems to have set it up that way for some purpose.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2006 at 8:57pm

Mishmish,

Salaam Alaikum,

Part of Verse 2:253: "To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit."

Before anyone can come up and say, "Look, the above verse in Qur'aan confirms that The Holy Spirit went to strengthen Jesus or made him strong.", , I must write to clarify what "strengthened him with the holy spirit" means.

It simply means that Jesus had a very strong character, he was a noble and pure soul and he was born with that. Nothing could tempt him, nothing could shake him, nothing could excite him and he could not go wrong.

All of us know from the NT that all the attacks by Satan, from left and right, failed. Satan could not sway the man, who had been blessed with a strong spirit or soul when he was born or at the time when God grants a soul to the foetus.

Thus, the holy spirit in the above verse is just Jesus' own soul or spirit, meaning he was blessed with a good and noble soul that remains faithful to God Almighty. It is not that spirit which some Christian friends are trying to find in Islam and Qur'aan.  

Just a "pre-emptive" thought!  Hope you enjoyed this.

BR

BMZ



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2006 at 8:23pm

All of the Prophets and Messengers provided "clear signs" from God. That was their purpose.

2:92 There came to you Moses with clear (signs); yet ye worshipped the calf (Even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully.

2:118 Say those without knowledge: "Why speaketh not Allah unto us? or why cometh not unto us a Sign?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the signs unto any people who hold firmly to Faith (in their hearts).

2:145 Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong.

2:211 Ask the Children of Israel how many clear (signs) We have sent them. But if any one, after Allah's favour has come to him, substitutes (something else), Allah is strict in punishment.

2:213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.

2:242 Thus doth Allah Make clear His signs to you: In order that ye may understand.

2:253 Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.

This does not just refer to Jesus, but all apostles and Prophets.Yes, Jesus was given abilities that some Prophets were not, but all Prophets were unique in their own way. Prophet Mohammed was sent as the last Prophet, the Prophet for all of mankind, and the seal of the religion of God.

 

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2006 at 6:41am
I find this more interesting, as it indicates Allah communicated directly with Jesus and that Allah granted Jesus the power to over life and death.  I believe Muhummad was a great prophet, but there is a reason Allah granted Jesus these unprecedented powers and appointed Jesus to rule over human souls instead of Muhummad.

I understand why Muslims find Christians illogical at times, but the Qu'ran says Allah intended Jesus to provide "clear signs". Discussing the semantics of "is Jesus God" really does not seem to be a productive effort and I think Muslims would be better served by acknowledging the "clear signs" the Qu'ran documents.

5:110 Then will Allah say: "O jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
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