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Topic ClosedJesus is God (or not)

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PattyaMainer View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

PattyaMainer: And all Catholics/Christians believe the very same....the Bible is the word of God.  Jesus was the Word.

What makes you believe in Isa Massih (as) as a word of God and a prophet but not in Mohammad (sawa)?
 
 
Jesus was teaching on earth long before Mohammad.  Mohammad came much later.  Here is what Jesus said about others saying they are prophets coming after him, from the Gospel of Matthew 24-4:13 ~
 

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name�s sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

God's Peace,
Patty

 

 

 
 
Patty,
I sense a feel of offensive from you which is quite a contrast to your ealier approach of conquering through love and peace. In my opinion both of those approaches are incorrect. Only the approach of truth, even though bitter, yet true winner Patty, everything else is decieving and a loser at the end.
 
What you tried to convey in your above quotes is somewhat true that there will be many who will claim to have come from God but infact they are not. There have been some instances where a Christian church leader has claimed to be the Christ or or a prophet or even God.
 
You take Bible as word of God despite its inconsistancies, and you seem to live by parts of it that favor you and ignore the ones you cannot fulfil because of your reservations or disbelieve in them for whatsoever wordly reasons. The biggest one being making idols of living beings those who lived in the past and adoring and bowing down to them which is strictly forbidden by the first and second commands of your very book.
 
I agree that anyone coming from God will warn of false guides and other troubles. And I believe that Jesus was sent by God. Jesus I believe never claimed to be God nor he claimed to be the last prophet from God. What is left of the original word of God in what we call now the Bible Jesus is quoted to have said the following. I don't have to explain what it means nor I will aske you to explain it to me, we will leave that to each one to interpret the way we see it.
 
  1. John 15:26
    "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
  2. John 16:13
    But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

I also find this quote intersting, and again we don't have to explain it, leave it to all to see it as it is.

1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 

God has traught us the truth through Quran that Jesus was in fact a man a prophet. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did acknowledged prophet Jesus (pbuh) and other prophets before him to be from God.

The Quran 3:3  It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
 
Hasan
 
I will make this very brief, Hasan, as I am not deserving of being accused of being "offensive".  I have spent many days trying to answer your questions respectfully.....even as you disrespect the Bible.
 
The "Counselor" mentioned above is the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity which was sent down from God.  Jesus mentioned the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Paraclete, many times.  In the verses you quoted it was the Holy Spirit to whom Jesus was referring....not another prophet.
 
Now I think I need a break. 
 
Peace to you, Hasan,
Patty
 
 
 
 
Patty,
"counselor and Holy Spirit" are not the same according to the Bible as you claimed them to be. Upon a little study and analyzing the facts we can differentiate between the two. And as always I will be to the point with facts through my own homework. 
 
According to the Bible the holy spirit was already there before Jesus was gone, just look at this quote: 
"Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan."
So the Holy Spirit already had been with Jesus and others strengthening them not something that will come after him.
 
Another issue arises from: "...he will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears,"
This cannot be said of the Holy Spirit, who accoding to you is God and according to the following quote in fact teaches what to say rather being told what to say.
"Luke 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."
Thus this simply proves that 'the Counselor' and  'the Holy Spirit or God (according to you)' are not the same.
 
One thing I also would like to add that questioning and  reasoning in order to get to the truth is never offending and God Almighty only loves the truth from us, not because God benefits from it but rather the individual seeking it does.
Hasan
 
Hasan

 


 
Hello Hasan,
 
I do my homework just as you. :)  In my faith, and according to the Holy Bible, the Counselor and the Holy Spirit are one and the same....just two different words to describe the Holy Spirit.  There are others as well, but I will be brief and focus only on this word, "Counselor."
 
In John 14:26, we learn that the Holy Spirit is our Counselor and teacher: �But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.�
 
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2009 at 4:20am
Originally posted by patty patty wrote:

Hello Hasan,
 
I do my homework just as you. :)  In my faith, and according to the Holy Bible, the Counselor and the Holy Spirit are one and the same....just two different words to describe the Holy Spirit.  There are others as well, but I will be brief and focus only on this word, "Counselor."
 
In John 14:26, we learn that the Holy Spirit is our Counselor and teacher: �But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.�
 
Patty



In the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of John 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit."

Spirit in the Bible refers to "Human Prophets" and not Ghost Spirits.  Take this example:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)

Therefore, there is ample proofs that Jesus predicted a coming of a Human Comforter and not the Holy Spirit as Christians falsely believe.


In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote: "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2009 at 1:16am
Originally posted by Honzo Honzo wrote:

Originally posted by patty patty wrote:

Hello Hasan,
 
I do my homework just as you. :)  In my faith, and according to the Holy Bible, the Counselor and the Holy Spirit are one and the same....just two different words to describe the Holy Spirit.  There are others as well, but I will be brief and focus only on this word, "Counselor."
 
In John 14:26, we learn that the Holy Spirit is our Counselor and teacher: �But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.�
 
Patty



In the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of John 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit."

Spirit in the Bible refers to "Human Prophets" and not Ghost Spirits.  Take this example:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)

Therefore, there is ample proofs that Jesus predicted a coming of a Human Comforter and not the Holy Spirit as Christians falsely believe.


In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote: "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135)


 

�COMFORTER� in the �King James Version�; �HELPER� in the �New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures�

Greek � �parakletos

 

Strong�s Greek Dictionary #3875 παράκλητος  parakletos  par-ak'-lay-tos An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

 

 

Jesus actually explained what the parakletos is in another scripture. Just before his death, he said: �The HELPER [GK. PARAKLETOS], the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.� (John 14:26)   

 

A little earlier, he had said: �If you love me, you will observe my commandments; and I will request the Father and he will give you another HELPER [GK. PARAKLETOS] to be with you forever, the spirit of truth.��John 14:15-17.

Also:-

 

Acts 9:31

Then, indeed, the congregation throughout the whole of Ju�de�a and Gal�i�lee and Sa�mar�i�a entered into a period of peace, being built up; and as it walked in the fear of Jehovah and in the COMFORT [GK. PARAKLESEI] of the holy spirit it kept on multiplying.

 

2 Corinthians 7:13

However, in addition to our COMFORT [GK. PARAKEKLEMETHA] we rejoiced still more abundantly due to the joy of Titus, because his spirit has been refreshed by all of YOU.

 

Parakletos = "The spirit of truth" cannot be human thus NOT Muhammed by Jesus own words!

 

Insight on the Scriptures

Vol, 2 p.1019 Spirit

Personification does not prove personality. It is true that Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a �helper� and spoke of such helper as �teaching,� �bearing witness,� �giving evidence,� �guiding,� �speaking,� �hearing,� and �receiving.� In so doing, the original Greek shows Jesus at times applying the personal pronoun �he� to that �helper� (paraclete). (Compare Joh 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15.) However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT) Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both �works� and �children.� The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as �kings.� (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) He speaks of sin as �receiving an inducement,� �working out covetousness,� �seducing,� and �killing.� (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.

So, likewise with John�s account of Jesus� words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context. Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a �helper� (which in Greek is the masculine substantive pa�ra�kle�tos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus� words as referring to that �helper� aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns. On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneu�ma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun to refer to the holy spirit, pneu�ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John�s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with pa�ra�kle�tos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.�Joh 14:16, 17;

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 January 2009 at 3:54am
Very interesting perspective...
 
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 January 2009 at 3:57pm

 Topic : Muhammad in the Old and New Testament

 Written by Former Roman Catholic Bishop of the Uniate Chaldean

 http://bible.islamicweb.com/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2009 at 7:38am
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

Originally posted by Honzo Honzo wrote:

Originally posted by patty patty wrote:

Hello Hasan,
 
I do my homework just as you. :)  In my faith, and according to the Holy Bible, the Counselor and the Holy Spirit are one and the same....just two different words to describe the Holy Spirit.  There are others as well, but I will be brief and focus only on this word, "Counselor."
 
In John 14:26, we learn that the Holy Spirit is our Counselor and teacher: �But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.�
 
Patty



In the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of John 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit."

Spirit in the Bible refers to "Human Prophets" and not Ghost Spirits.  Take this example:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)

Therefore, there is ample proofs that Jesus predicted a coming of a Human Comforter and not the Holy Spirit as Christians falsely believe.


In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote: "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135)


 

�COMFORTER� in the �King James Version�; �HELPER� in the �New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures�

Greek � �parakletos

 

Strong�s Greek Dictionary #3875 παράκλητος  parakletos  par-ak'-lay-tos An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

 

 

Jesus actually explained what the parakletos is in another scripture. Just before his death, he said: �The HELPER [GK. PARAKLETOS], the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.� (John 14:26)   

 

A little earlier, he had said: �If you love me, you will observe my commandments; and I will request the Father and he will give you another HELPER [GK. PARAKLETOS] to be with you forever, the spirit of truth.��John 14:15-17.

Also:-

 

Acts 9:31

Then, indeed, the congregation throughout the whole of Ju�de�a and Gal�i�lee and Sa�mar�i�a entered into a period of peace, being built up; and as it walked in the fear of Jehovah and in the COMFORT [GK. PARAKLESEI] of the holy spirit it kept on multiplying.

 

2 Corinthians 7:13

However, in addition to our COMFORT [GK. PARAKEKLEMETHA] we rejoiced still more abundantly due to the joy of Titus, because his spirit has been refreshed by all of YOU.

 

Parakletos = "The spirit of truth" cannot be human thus NOT Muhammed by Jesus own words!

 

Insight on the Scriptures

Vol, 2 p.1019 Spirit

Personification does not prove personality. It is true that Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a �helper� and spoke of such helper as �teaching,� �bearing witness,� �giving evidence,� �guiding,� �speaking,� �hearing,� and �receiving.� In so doing, the original Greek shows Jesus at times applying the personal pronoun �he� to that �helper� (paraclete). (Compare Joh 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15.) However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT) Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both �works� and �children.� The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as �kings.� (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) He speaks of sin as �receiving an inducement,� �working out covetousness,� �seducing,� and �killing.� (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.

So, likewise with John�s account of Jesus� words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context. Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a �helper� (which in Greek is the masculine substantive pa�ra�kle�tos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus� words as referring to that �helper� aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns. On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneu�ma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun to refer to the holy spirit, pneu�ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John�s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with pa�ra�kle�tos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.�Joh 14:16, 17;

 
 
I would like to state first off that Robin's church, that being the Jehovah Witness, does not believe in the Holy Bible.  Rather, they have their own bible which is known as the New World Bible.  They also believe that people need a newsletter to teach them "the way", a newsletter which is known as The Watchtower.  Their religion was only founded in the late 1800s.  Here are the beliefs to which Robin adheres:
 
WHAT DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BELIEVE?

The Jehovah's Witnesses were founded by Charles Taze Russell, a former haberdasher from Philadelphia, in early 1872 in Alleghany, Pa. Russell was born on Feb. 16, 1852 in Pittsburgh, and died on Oct. 31, 1916. He was baptized a Congregationalist, and was raised in a strict Protestant family. His later study of the Bible led him to deny the existence of hell and the doctrine of the Trinity, and to express Arian views concerning the nature of Jesus Christ, denying His divinity.

In 1879, Russell founded the journal <The Watchtower> and in 1884 formed the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. He traveled on preaching missions throughout the United States and Europe, organizing his followers, who were called Russellites, Millennial Dawnists, International Bible Students and finally Jehovah's Witnesses. During his missionary work, he faced several scandals including separation from his wife after 18 years of marriage, and the accusation of fraud for selling "miracle wheat" for a very high price.

Upon Russell's death in 1916, Judge Joseph Franklin Rutherford, a Missouri lawyer who had defended Russell in several of his legal battles, succeeded him as president of the society. Rutherford officially incorporated the group in 1931 as the Jehovah's Witnesses with the legal title, "The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society." Rutherford developed Russell's ideas into a formal doctrinal system. He also transformed the congregational structure of the sect as it was under Russell into a rigid theocracy. Rutherford laid the foundation for the sect as we know it today.

According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, there is one God, and since 1931, they have insisted that He be called "Jehovah." This is a corruption in the pronunciation of the Hebrew <Yahweh>, which occurred about the third century B.C. and was carried into the King James Bible's translation of <Yahweh> in Exodus 6:3. The Jehovah's Witnesses say that Jesus is God's Son, but is inferior to God. They condemn the Trinity as pagan idolatry and accordingly deny Christ's divinity. Russell even claimed that the Trinity was the idea of Satan. Ironically, however, when they baptize, they use the formula, "...In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Nevertheless, the Jehovah's Witnesses consider Jesus as the greatest Witness of all, inferior to no one except Jehovah Himself. Before existing as a human being, Jesus was a spiritual creature called the Logos, or Word, or even Michael the Archangel. He died as a man and was raised as an immortal Spirit-Son. His passion and death were the price He paid to regain for mankind the right to live eternally on earth. Indeed, the great multitude of true Witnesses hope in an earthly Paradise (These teachings echo the heresies which the early Church condemned beginning at the council of Nicea in 325).

They believe that the Bible is the only source of belief and rule of conduct. However, their Bible aids seem to have more strength. They are only allowed to use their own translation of the Bible and other official publications. Unfortunately, many purposeful mistranslations exist in their version to support their tenets. For example, in the New Testament, "Lord" is translated <Jehovah> except where it refers directly to Christ. In the Last Supper account, they translate, "Take, eat. This is My body." To "Take, eat. This means My body." To affirm that Jesus was created, they add the word other to Colossians 1:16, "By means of Him, everything was created...,"; "By means of Him, all other things were created in the heaven and upon the earth... All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, He is before all other things and by means of Him all other things were made to exist."

The Jehovah's Witnesses also deny the immortality of the soul, the existence of hell, and the seven sacraments. (Although they have ritual of baptism, they regard it as merely the exterior symbol of their dedication to the service of Jehovah.) They observe no feast�including Christmas�except the Memorial of the Last Supper, which they hold once a year after sundown on the 14th day of Nisan (a former method of computing the date of Easter and Passover) and during which only those who consider themselves as being among the celestial 144,000 may partake of the "emblems"�the bread and wine. They refuse blood transfusions. They also refuse to salute the flag, seeing this as an act of idolatry. They also condemn smoking.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are also preoccupied with Armageddon�the final clash between the forces of good and evil. Here God will destroy the old system of creation and establish Jehovah's Kingdom. A group of 144,000 spiritual sons of God will rise to heaven, rule with Christ, and share their happiness with the others. However, the wicked will undergo complete destruction. Russell said that this Armageddon could not happen later than 1914. (He had given specific dates and times on three earlier occasions, but was wrong). From 1920, Rutherford proclaimed that "millions now living will never die"; he also expected the "princes of old"�Abraham, Isaac, and the others�to come back to life by 1925 as rulers over the New World.

After so many mistaken predictions, the Watch Tower Society of the mid-20th century no longer specified an exact date for all of this to happen; but it repeated that "this generation will by no means pass away until all things occur." More recently, Nathan Knorr, who succeeded Rutherford in 1942 as head, predicted that the world would end in 1974; the world itself did not end, but this world did for Knorr�he died in 1974. Nevertheless, Witnesses are deeply convinced that the end of the world will come within a very few years.

Each member is considered an ordained minister to give witness to Jehovah by announcing His approaching Kingdom. He may do this by door-to-door evangelization, by meeting with others for home Bible studies, or by standing at street corners to display Watch Tower literature. Preaching the good news is the only means of salvation. Ordinarily, the entry level Jehovah's Witness is called a "servant". A "publisher," attends five hourly meetings a week and is to devote 10 hours a month witnessing. A "pioneer" gives 100 hours a month to the society.

God's Peace,

Patty


Edited by PattyaMainer - 20 January 2009 at 7:43am
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2009 at 8:13am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali Mansoor_ali wrote:


 Topic : Muhammad in the Old and New Testament

 Written by Former Roman Catholic Bishop of the Uniate Chaldean

 http://bible.islamicweb.com/
 
Ali,
 
After researching this man, very little is known of him.  He was just 33, so could not have reached any measure of status if he was a priest.  He could not have been a Catholic for long at all, if ever.  He is relatively unknown.  And he lived back in the 1800s.  It is known he borrowed a Bible from a female cousin who was a Christian and wanted the Bible back, little things like that.  But very little proven information regarding this man is known.
 
Peace,
Patty
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2009 at 4:29pm
patty no response?
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