Jesus is God (or not) |
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Mansoor_ali
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
Posted: 27 March 2010 at 1:02pm | ||
To Doug According to Doug "Jesus never referred to God as his creator. Jesus said before Abraham was, I am. What human being can say that?" My Response In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: �The Father is greater than I.� By stating that the �Father� is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Also in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: �I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.� Jesus� reference to God as �my Father and your Father� further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as �his God�, he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God. My response to John 8:58 John 8:58: �Jesus said unto them, �Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.� � This verse is taken to imply that Jesus existed prior to his appearance on earth. The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth. However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur�aan. Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: � 5Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 5 �Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.� � Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, �23Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there.� According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: �4Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!� In the Qur�aan, Chapter al-A�raaf, (7):172, God informed that man existed in the spiritual form before the creation of the physical world. �When your Lord gathered all of Aadam�s descendants [before creation] and made them bear witness for themselves, saying: �Am I not your Lord?� They all replied: Yes indeed, we bear witness. [That was] so you could not say on the Day of Judgement: �We were unaware of this.� �Consequently, Prophet Jesus� statement, �Before Abraham was, I am,� cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God�s knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world. |
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Mansoor_ali
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
Posted: 27 March 2010 at 1:32pm | ||
Response to John 14:6 Lets read the verses in context.
1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going." 5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" (John 14:1-5) In context we read that Jesus Christ (pbuh) is talking about God Almighty. Verse 2 gives the answer. Jesus says �In my FATHER�S house�. He is talking about going to paradise, he is talking about spiritual matters, they are thinking of some geographical location. So Jesus (pbuh) gives the reply.
�6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.� (John 14:6)
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
Posted: 28 March 2010 at 8:35pm | ||
Doug, you are playing with words, that may be right for you, but not for me. Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb, don't tell me that you don't consider Mary a human or her seed as nothing? And why you cannot believe that the one who can create Universe, and tiny creatures that you cannot even see can cause (what will be a miracle for us) a human, Mary to conceive without a male connection. And such a conception, for one who truly believe in God, would not mean that it was God's sperm that got Mary pregnant (Nauzobillah) as Christians preach, thus calling Jesus begotten son of God. I see not much difference between those (Jews) who called Jesus an illegitimate child and rejected him as the Messiah and those who uttered that Mary was pregnant with God, and that Jesus was begotten son of God. We see that the correction to both came through the Final Testament, the Quran, according to which, both "Jews" and "Christians" were wrong, one for rejecting Jesus, the other for the blasphemy of making a servant of God into a God. It gave us the truth, that Jesus was a man, a beloved of God, who God sent as a prophet to guide people who were lost in their belief. What a beautiful and a truthful correction for those who believe that they really will give account of what they say, think or do in front of God one day. I will do what the prophet (pbuh) did, let us gather us and our children, you and your children and call upon God to double the penalty of hell upon those who lie. Hasan Edited by honeto - 28 March 2010 at 8:48pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Oran
Starter Male Joined: 04 April 2010 Status: Offline Points: 3 |
Posted: 04 April 2010 at 5:03pm | ||
Assalamu Waylakum, Peace be upon you, and hello.
I first want to say that I am happy to see that so many Christians have ventured into a non-familiar territory to speak for what they believe in. This is a righteous and commemorable path to choose. I am even more pleased to see how generally mild disagreement has been. There is no
need to be hostile, and we should be proud of ourselves to keep this debate calm.
I speak for no one when I ask some simple questions. I want everyone on here to consider, evaluate, and if it pleases, reply to them.
Is there not one Creator, meaning that everything that exists besides the Creator is creation?
Is Jesus not creation (whether or not he can be called the "Son")?
How was Jesus created? How was Adam created? How were you created?
What does it mean to say "<name> ibn Ishaak"? What is Jesus' "ibn"
name? Is this not confusing? Could there be some mix-up at some time in
regards to it?
Is Jesus not called "the Word of God", in a very similar fashion to that of the Qur'an being called the "Word of God"?
How possible (a percentage would be fine) is it that this debate isn't much more than an argument of words?
We can all agree that God is not a human, and therefore does not give birth like a human. So, even Christians would agree that Jesus is not any
sort of conception that one could call "worldly." Would Muslims disagree?
If Jesus is God, then isn't this image still a creation of God that humans
are able to interface with?
What flavor of "God sent his message through Jesus whom he created" do
you fancy?
May God allow us to live in harmony. Edited by Oran - 04 April 2010 at 5:06pm |
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JOUBERAR
Guest Group Joined: 13 March 2009 Status: Offline Points: 573 |
Posted: 05 April 2010 at 7:02am | ||
But now at last, God sent his Son
Heb 1:1 Long ago in many ways and at many times God's prophets spoke his message to our ancestors.Heb 1:2 But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son.Heb 1:3 God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together. After the Son had washed away our sins, he sat down at the right side of the glorious God in heaven.Heb 1:4 He had become much greater than the angels, and the name he was given is far greater than any of theirs.Heb 1:5 God has never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son, because today I have become your Father!" Neither has God said to any of them, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son!"Heb 1:6 When God brings his first-born Son into the world, he commands all of his angels to worship him.Heb 1:7 And when God speaks about the angels, he says, "I change my angels into wind and my servants into flaming fire."Heb 1:8 But God says about his Son, "You are God, and you will rule as King forever! Your royal power brings about justice.Heb 1:9 You loved justice and hated evil, and so I, your God, have chosen you. I appointed you and made you happier than any of your friends."Heb 1:10 The Scriptures also say, "In the beginning, Lord, you were the one who laid the foundation of the earth and created the heavens.Heb 1:11 They will all disappear and wear out like clothes, but you will last forever.Heb 1:12 You will roll them up like a robe and change them like a garment. But you are always the same, and you will live forever."Heb 1:13 God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!"Heb 1:14 Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved. |
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Mansoor_ali
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
Posted: 06 April 2010 at 3:28pm | ||
Where does Bible say that Jesus(peace be upon him) is seal upon salvation? Instead of it,Bible says that Jesus(peace be upon him) was sent only to the Jews and not to mankind. He(Jesus) answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."Matthew 15:24 So Jesus(peace be upon him) was Prophet for a specific nation for a specific period of time. While Muhammad(peace be upon him) was Prophet for whole nation.He was Prophet for whole mankind. Quran says:"Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds: (The Noble Quran, 81:27)" Authentic Hadith says:Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Rubbing hands and feet with dust (Tayammum), Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331)" Even Jesus(peace be upon him) himself prophesized Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him).
Yes I also agree that Jesus(peace be upon him) was son of God but that title doesnot prove any divinity of Christ.This title was given thousands of people before birth of Christ in Bible. Visit:"Son of God" means "Servant of God" in Hebrew. And also visit:Do People and Angels bowing down to Jesus in Worship really prove that he is the Creator of the Universe? |
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JOUBERAR
Guest Group Joined: 13 March 2009 Status: Offline Points: 573 |
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 7:50am | ||
MANSOOR CAN YOU READ SON {S O N} GOD SENT HIS SON NOT HIS SERVANT PLEASE DO NOT RUN AWAY FROM REALITY THEN YOU CAN TELL ME THE KING'S PRINCE IS A SERVANT, THAT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT NOT IN REAL LIVE AND DEFINITELY NOT IN SPIRITUAL LIVE.
Heb 1:2 But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son (Then it must belong to his servants one hell of mispelling or copy error)
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Mansoor_ali
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
Posted: 19 April 2010 at 1:22pm | ||
JOUBERAR said MANSOOR CAN YOU READ SON {S O N} GOD SENT HIS SON NOT HIS SERVANT PLEASE DO NOT RUN AWAY FROM REALITY THEN YOU CAN TELL ME THE KING'S PRINCE IS A SERVANT, THAT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT NOT IN REAL LIVE AND DEFINITELY NOT IN SPIRITUAL LIVE. Heb 1:2 But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son (Then it must belong to his servants one hell of mispelling or copy error)
My Response I am quoting Brother Dr.Bilal Philips "The True Message of Jesus Christ" 3. The Son of God Another of the evidences used for Jesus� divinity is the application of the title �Son of God� to Jesus. However, there are numerous places in the Old Testament where this title has been given to others. God called Israel (Prophet Jacob) His �son� when He instructed Prophet Moses to go to Pharaoh in Exodus 4:22-23, �22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, �Thus says the Lord, �Israel is my first-born son, 23and I say to you, �Let my son go that he may serve me.� � [69] In 2nd Samuel 8:13-14, God calls Prophet Solomon His son, �13 He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14I will be his father, and he shall be my son.� God promised to make Prophet David His son in Psalms 89:26-27: �26 He shall cry unto me, �Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation,� 27Also I will make him my first-born, higher than the kings of the earth.�[70] Angels are referred to as �sons of God� in The Book of Job 1:6, �Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.�[71] In the New Testament, there are many references to �sons of God� other than Jesus. For example, when the author of the Gospel according to Luke listed Jesus� ancestors back to Adam, he wrote: �The son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.�[72] Some claim that what is unique in the case of Jesus, is that he is the only begotten[73] Son of God, while the others are merely �sons of God�. However, God is recorded as saying to Prophet David, in Psalms 2:7, �I will tell the decree of the Lord: He said to me, �You are my son, today I have begotten you.� � It should also be noted that nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus actually call himself �Son of God�.[74] Instead,
he is recorded to have repeatedly called himself �Son of man� (e.g.
Luke 9:22) innumerable times. And in Luke 4:41, he actually rejected
being called �Son of God�: �And demons also came out of many, crying, �You are the Son of God!� But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.� Since
the Hebrews believed that God is One, and had neither wife nor children
in any literal sense, it is obvious that the expression �son of God�
merely meant to them �Servant of God�; one who, because of his faithful
service, was close and dear to God, as a son is to a father. Christians
who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In
their heritage, �son of God� signified an incarnation of a god or
someone born of a physical union between male and female gods.[75]
When the Church cast aside its Hebrew foundations, it adopted the pagan
concept of �son of God�, which was entirely different from the Hebrew
usage.[76] Consequently,
the use of the term �son of God� should only be understood from the
Semitic symbolic sense of a �servant of God�, and not in the pagan
sense of a literal offspring of God. In the four Gospels, Jesus is
recorded as saying: �Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.�[77] Likewise, Jesus� use of the term abba, �dear father�, should be understood similarly. There is a dispute among New Testament scholars as to precisely what abba meant in Jesus� time and also as to how widely it was in use by other Jewish sects of that era. James Barr has recently argued forcefully that it did not have the specially intimate sense that has so often been attributed to it, but that it simply meant �father�.[78] To think of God as �our heavenly Father� was by no means new, for in the Lord�s prayer he is reported to have taught his disciples to address God in this same familiar way. |
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