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A quick question about the Evidence

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2Acts View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2Acts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2018 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by MIAW MIAW wrote:

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

The oldest Quran manuscript in existence found in Sanaa in the 1970s proves it varies considerably with the modern orthodox Quran used today. The Quran is unreliable.

 
Hi 2Acts,

Consider these points:

1) Wikipedia and other sources say that the Sanaa manuscript is one of the oldest Quranic texts available today. However you have decided to keep telling us that it is the oldest. Please yourself!

2) To judge the reliability of the Qur'an using the Sanaa manuscript is naive at best, because nowhere does it ever say who wrote it, when or where was it written. (the carbon dating is that of the parchment, not the writing).

3) Most importantly: The only reliable Qur'an is the one committed to the memory of Hundreds of Millions of Muslims from across the world and throughout history. Muslims have always learnt the Qur'an 'by heart'... from day one. and that is how it is preserved. You might find 2 Muslims who speak different languages, adhere to different cultures, originate from different backgrounds or even live at different times in history...etc, but the absolute certainty is: they know and read the same Qur'an... exactly the same.

I would like to give you another bit of information for free if that's ok:

from your previous posts, you seem to have an issue with Uthman RA burning all copies of the Qur'an and keeping just one.

Uthman RA did 2Acts (No Pun Intended!Smile) that are very relevant here: He collected the Qur'an in one Book, and then ordered the burning of all other copies available at the time.

For your info: This is one of the greatest favours that Uthman RA did for all Muslims throughout history. We will never be grateful enough to him for this act. Why is that?...

The reason for Uthman RA ordering the burning of other copies is not because they were different... it is because they were the same!

How is that?... 

Some of the companions RA who were present at the very time of revelation of the Qur'an, wrote their own record of the Qur'an in order to keep it at home (as their own copy)... however THEY only wrote down what THEY witnessed as it was revealed (THEY were not present at the time of EVERY revelation)... so when Uthman RA ordered the (most senior) scribes/companions to collect, check and write ONE COPY of the COMPLETE Qur'an, he then ordered all other copies to be destroyed by burning in order to eliminate all confusion. Reason: It is as if he knew that if other copies were kept in existence, there would be opponents of Islam (many centuries later) saying: "the copy discovered in an attic in Sanaa (or any other copy discovered anywhere... written by any Tom, Dick or Harry at any point in history) must have been written by a companion of Prophet Muhammad upon hearing it directly from the Prophet". [i.e. fake copies would be written left right and centre, and falsely attributed to our Prophet's companions.]

So you see... by doing that act, Uthman RA 'silenced' every opponent of Islam for good.

Hello MIAW

whether the Sanaa manuscript is the oldest or one of the oldest is not the point. Dated between 578 CE and 669 CE it is comparable to the Birmingham Quran which is dated between 568 and 645 CE. The Birmingham Quran however is only two pages while the Sanaa Quran has eighty pages. The real point however is that it is older than Uthmans recension.

In terms of its reliability being related to who wrote it. I don’t see how this is relevant because the Quran is supposed to be a miracle of God recited through the angel Gabriel. as the Quran states about it self -

…”this is a Glorious Quran (inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved. S85: 21:22

 

The manuscript is a palimpsest. This means it is written on parchment and comprises two layers of text. The upper text largely conforms to the standard 'Uthmanic' Quran in text and in the standard order of suras; whereas the lower text contains many variations from the standard text, and the sequence of its suras corresponds to no known quranic order. So because the Quran should be preserved in heaven then there should be absolutely no variances.

Because of Uthman it is impossible for Muslims to know what the Qur’an of Muhammad actually said. Hafiz do not know if they are memorising the correct Quran or not.

It does not make sense to say burning all the copies that were the same was a favour. If they were all the same then why the need to burn them ?

What was Uthman afraid of when he burnt the first copies of the Quran? Because of the differences in the way the Qur'an was being memorized and recited after Muhammad's death and because of the political problems at the time Uthman had to silence all his opponents by destroying all Qurans that were different.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2Acts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2018 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Faaiz Rosli Faaiz Rosli wrote:

how about the one in Birmingham University?

The Birmingham and Sanaa Qurans are roughly the same age but the Birmingham one  however is only two pages while the Sanaa Quran has eighty eight pages.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2018 at 10:00am

Hi 2Acts,

Don't you ever get dizzy?... you go round and round in circles... I have answered all your questions in the previous post.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

... In terms of its reliability being related to who wrote it. I don’t see how this is relevant ...

It is this kind of attitude that has made previous books (e.g. Bible ...etc) lose their reliability. 

A written copy of the Qur'an was ALLEGEDLY discovered in an attic here or in a cellar there... Big Deal! Opponents of Islam love to use these 'findings' because it serves their purpose (of attacking the integrity and reliability of Islam)... but when you ask them: Who wrote it? and When exactly?... they say: it's irrelevant. 

Thanks to Uthman RA burning all other copies... Any copy found anywhere cannot possibly be from the Prophet's time...


Quote ... Because of Uthman it is impossible for Muslims to know what the Qur’an of Muhammad actually said...

Because of Uthman RA it is very easy for Muslims to know what the Qur’an of Muhammad actually said.

Quote It does not make sense to say burning all the copies that were the same was a favour. If they were all the same then why the need to burn them ?

The reason was explained above in my previous post, and I don't want to copy and paste... so I just refer you back to it. 


Quote What was Uthman afraid of when he burnt the first copies of the Quran? ...

I have answered it in my previous post... but:

He knew that opponents of Islam would one day say what you are saying... and some weak-minded Muslims (who don't know their religion well) might fall for it and believe them.


There's only ONE Qur'an. It's the Qur'an that I know... along with billions of other Muslims from around the world... and (more importantly) from throughout history all the way to Revelation. Can you say the same about your bible?





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2Acts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2018 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by MIAW MIAW wrote:


Hi 2Acts,

Don't you ever get dizzy?... you go round and round in circles... I have answered all your questions in the previous post.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

... In terms of its reliability being related to who wrote it. I don’t see how this is relevant ...

It is this kind of attitude that has made previous books (e.g. Bible ...etc) lose their reliability. 

A written copy of the Qur'an was ALLEGEDLY discovered in an attic here or in a cellar there... Big Deal! Opponents of Islam love to use these 'findings' because it serves their purpose (of attacking the integrity and reliability of Islam)... but when you ask them: Who wrote it? and When exactly?... they say: it's irrelevant. 

Thanks to Uthman RA burning all other copies... Any copy found anywhere cannot possibly be from the Prophet's time...


Quote ... Because of Uthman it is impossible for Muslims to know what the Qur’an of Muhammad actually said...

Because of Uthman RA it is very easy for Muslims to know what the Qur’an of Muhammad actually said.

Quote It does not make sense to say burning all the copies that were the same was a favour. If they were all the same then why the need to burn them ?

The reason was explained above in my previous post, and I don't want to copy and paste... so I just refer you back to it. 


Quote What was Uthman afraid of when he burnt the first copies of the Quran? ...

I have answered it in my previous post... but:

He knew that opponents of Islam would one day say what you are saying... and some weak-minded Muslims (who don't know their religion well) might fall for it and believe them.


There's only ONE Qur'an. It's the Qur'an that I know... along with billions of other Muslims from around the world... and (more importantly) from throughout history all the way to Revelation. Can you say the same about your bible?

Hello MIAW.

The reason we go in circles is because your answers are not good enough. And the reason I say it is not relevant who wrote the Sanaa Quran is because Muslims believe it was a direct recitation from Allah, Gabriel and Mohamad. Therefore because it is such a miracle it is irrelevant who wrote the Sanaa copy. Because it is a miracle there should be no differences.

It does not make sense for you to say thanks to Uthman burning all other copies that any copy found anywhere cannot possibly be from the Prophet's time because you do not have any early copies to compare.

You cannot say there is only ONE Quran. The Sanaa Quran proves there was more than one, before Uthman burnt them.

Yes I can say the Bible is extremely reliable. There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament and 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). The new testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asep garut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 8:36am
Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

Originally posted by MIAW MIAW wrote:


Hi 2Acts,

Don't you ever get dizzy?... you go round and round in circles... I have answered all your questions in the previous post.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

... In terms of its reliability being related to who wrote it. I don’t see how this is relevant ...

It is this kind of attitude that has made previous books (e.g. Bible ...etc) lose their reliability. 

A written copy of the Qur'an was ALLEGEDLY discovered in an attic here or in a cellar there... Big Deal! Opponents of Islam love to use these 'findings' because it serves their purpose (of attacking the integrity and reliability of Islam)... but when you ask them: Who wrote it? and When exactly?... they say: it's irrelevant. 

Thanks to Uthman RA burning all other copies... Any copy found anywhere cannot possibly be from the Prophet's time...


Quote ... Because of Uthman it is impossible for Muslims to know what the Qur’an of Muhammad actually said...

Because of Uthman RA it is very easy for Muslims to know what the Qur’an of Muhammad actually said.

Quote It does not make sense to say burning all the copies that were the same was a favour. If they were all the same then why the need to burn them ?

The reason was explained above in my previous post, and I don't want to copy and paste... so I just refer you back to it. 


Quote What was Uthman afraid of when he burnt the first copies of the Quran? ...

I have answered it in my previous post... but:

He knew that opponents of Islam would one day say what you are saying... and some weak-minded Muslims (who don't know their religion well) might fall for it and believe them.


There's only ONE Qur'an. It's the Qur'an that I know... along with billions of other Muslims from around the world... and (more importantly) from throughout history all the way to Revelation. Can you say the same about your bible?

Hello MIAW.

The reason we go in circles is because your answers are not good enough. And the reason I say it is not relevant who wrote the Sanaa Quran is because Muslims believe it was a direct recitation from Allah, Gabriel and Mohamad. Therefore because it is such a miracle it is irrelevant who wrote the Sanaa copy. Because it is a miracle there should be no differences.

It does not make sense for you to say thanks to Uthman burning all other copies that any copy found anywhere cannot possibly be from the Prophet's time because you do not have any early copies to compare.

You cannot say there is only ONE Quran. The Sanaa Quran proves there was more than one, before Uthman burnt them.

Yes I can say the Bible is extremely reliable. There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament and 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). The new testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.


I try to add my opinion here regarding the existence of the Sanaa Quran.

Previously I wanted to ask and hopefully someone could answer my questions:

1.     1. How many verses are there in the Sanaa Quran? (page unnecessary)

2.     2. How many words of Fawatihussuwar letters in such Quran?

(Fawatihussuwar is a collection of Al-Quran letters that started a surah)

3.       How many words of  “  الله  “ (Allah) in such Quran ?

This amount will determine the authenticity of the Qur'an since the Prophet Muhammad is still alive until now that the contents of the Quran are all still maintained authenticity.

Sorry, not all Muslims know the secret behind the number of numbers and letters in the Quran except those who have been given "Al Hikmah" by Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.

He grants Hikmah to whom He pleases, and he, to whom Hikmah is granted, is indeed granted abundant good. But none remember (will receive admonition) except men of understanding.” (Quran 2:269)

Today, there are thousands of Muslims who understand the Quran and maybe more, and it has been handed down since the Prophet Muhammad is still alive, and they are included in the Quran.

Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Quran, and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).” (Quran 15:9)

We (in blue) show that it is Allah and the Angel Gabriel, while We (in green) shows that it is Allah, the Angel Gabriel, and those who are given "Hikmah" (wisdom) by Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2018 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

...The reason we go in circles is because your answers are not good enough...

Of course, my answers are not good enough to YOU... because you want me to agree with what you are saying and you only accept your own opinions as correct!

However, look at what you are saying:

You want us to believe that while our Prophet PBUH was reciting what had just been revealed to him, each of his companions/scribes somehow wrote something different! And that our Prophet allowed that to happen! Clap

Our Prophet's companions were extremely trustworthy... it is thanks to Allah SWT, and then to them that Islam and the Qur'an have stood the test of time and the constant and relentless adverse attempts of opponents of the Truth throughout the last 15 centuries.

Add to that: the benefit of the fact that the Qur'an was written during our Prophet's lifetime and under his supervision... unlike any previous revelations.

Anyone can produce a fake Qur'an or Hadith... this has been happening since day one, and it is still happening today... but will this affect me or the billions of Muslims who are alert and know their religion well? NO! ... It has worked with other religions before us and corrupted them, but it won't work with us.

You hang on to your copies of the Qur'an... that you keep discovering in attics and cellars here and there and everywhere... and we'll hang on to ours (from trustworthy sources that we know well)... thank you.





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