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Al Masihi
Senior Member Male Joined: 02 March 2018 Status: Offline Points: 141 |
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In Jeremiah 50:6, God calls Israel His people and “lost sheep.” The Messiah, spoken of throughout the Old Testament, was seen as the one who would gather these “lost sheep” (Ezekiel 34:23-24; Micah 5:4-5). When Jesus presented Himself as a shepherd to Israel, He was claiming to be the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy (Mark 6:34, 14:27; John 10:11-16; see also Hebrews 13:20; 1 Peter 5:4; and Revelation 7:17).
Jesus’ words show an awareness of Israel’s place in God’s plan of salvation. God revealed through Moses that the children of Israel were “a holy people to the LORD . . . chosen . . . a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth” (Deuteronomy 7:6). It was through the Jews that God issued His Law, preserved His Word, and sent His Son. This is why, elsewhere, Jesus tells a Samaritan that “salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). In Matthew 15, when the Jewish Messiah says that He was sent to “the house of Israel,” He is simply connecting His presence with God’s purpose in Old Testament history. Christ was “born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law” (Galatians 4:4-5). |
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Al Masihi
Senior Member Male Joined: 02 March 2018 Status: Offline Points: 141 |
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Again I don't see how the councils are contradictory, esus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.
Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality. The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14). Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever. The Triune God of the Bible has existed and reigned from all eternity, and the second Person of the Trinity, the Son, took on human flesh at a particular point in time (Luke 1:35; Hebrews 1:5). God the Son added a sinless human nature to His eternally existent divine nature. The result was the Incarnation. God the Son became a man (John 1:1, 14). Hebrews 2:17 gives the reason that Jesus had to be both God and man: “He had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.” The Son of God took on human flesh to provide redemption to those under the law (Galatians 4:4–5). At no time did Jesus ever cease to be God. Although He was made fully human, there was never a point when He abrogated His divine nature (see Luke 6:5, 8). It is equally true that, after becoming incarnate, the Son has never ceased to be human. As the apostle Paul wrote, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5, emphasis added). Jesus is not half-human and half-divine. Rather, He is Theanthropos, the God-man. The Lord Jesus Christ is one eternally divine Person who will forever possess two distinct yet inseparable natures: one divine and one human. |
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2Acts
Senior Member Joined: 22 March 2015 Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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Hello Asep Garut Thankyou for your
reply. The oldest Quran found in Sanaa Yemen in the 1970s showed that the
differences were a lot more thn just reading differences. Also Uthman destroyed
all the original copies because of differences. Regarding Jesus saying, “I am sent only to the lost sheep of the people of Israel. " (Mathew 15:24) and “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations” (Mathew 28:19) this is not a contradiction if you read them in context. |
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asep garut
Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2017 Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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Hi 2Acts, I would not be surprised if anyone says that has been found the oldest Qur'an etc. because at the time of the Prophet Muhammad also there was a claiming a Prophet for example a man named Abhalah bin Ka'ab bin Ghauts Al Kadzdzab alias Al Aswadi Al Ansi, he came from Yemen, he claimed to be a prophet and spoke in the name of God, he has made the word - false words, and finally the false words vanished from the surface of the earth (61: 8) I have faith that the original Qur'an will be preserved because God Himself speaks in His word (15: 9), while the false Qur'an will disappear from the earth's surface (17:81) I chose the Qur'an to be believed because the original revelation language still exists that is Arabic, for example every Qur'an is always written in two languages ie Arabic and translation into each country's language. And for me, thing that can determine that the Qur'an is original or fake is by checking each composition of the original revelation of the letters. |
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Niblo
Groupie Male Islam Joined: 01 September 2016 Location: Leeds; UK Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Sorry for the delayed reply. The question is: How can Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) be both ‘wholly man’ and ‘wholly God’ at one and the same time? Help me out with a little experiment: Make a fist with your right hand. Now open that same hand as wide as you can. Repeat this process half a dozen times; and see if you can identify the principal ingredient that makes this process possible. The principal ingredient is time. The process can happen only because each action occupies its own niche in time. Sticking with your right hand, try making a fist and an open palm at the same time. Can’t be done. Welcome to the ‘law of non-contradiction’. This law states that a thing cannot be ‘A’ (in this case your fist) and ‘not-A’ (in this case your open palm) at one and the same time. James N. Anderson and Greg Welty write: ‘(But) what exactly is the Law of Non-Contradiction about? What is its subject matter? The simple answer here is that the Law of Non-Contradiction is a truth about truths. Specifically, it is the truth that no truth whatsoever can also be a falsehood….Anyone who insists that the Law of Non-Contradiction applies to truths about cars but not to truths about cats would rightly be considered confused. ‘In the standard terminology of possible worlds, we are observing here that the Law of Non-Contradiction is true not only in the actual world but also in every possible world. There is no possible world in which that logical law is false (or fails to be true in any other way). ‘The notion of non-contradiction lies at the core of our understanding of possibility.’ (‘The Lord of Non-Contradiction: An Argument for God from Logic). The Persian philosopher, Avicenna, said: ‘Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.’ (Metaphysics, I.8; commenting on Aristotle). How can Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) be both ‘wholly man’ and ‘wholly God’ at one and the same time? He can’t. And here’s why: If we define ‘man’ as a member of the species homo-sapiens, with various physical and mental limitations, then we distinguish ‘man’ from ‘God’. If Yeshua is ‘wholly man’ then he cannot possibly be wholly not-man (God, after all is not man) at one and the same time and in the same relationship to what defines a man. If we insist that he is indeed both ‘man’ and ‘God’ – and if we preserve the integrity of the definitions of these terms – then we make him a logical contradiction. The thing about logical contradictions is that they are never true. They are always false, because the real world never satisfies both a statement and its negation at the same time, simply by the meaning of negation. To believe in a logical contradiction is to believe a lie. By now you may be thinking: ‘but (surely) with God all things are possible!’ (Matthew 19:26). What you should really be thinking is: ‘All things that are possible are possible with God.’ This is quite a different matter. C.S. Lewis writes: ‘(God’s) Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say "God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it," you have not succeeded in saying anything about God. ‘Meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words "God can."… It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.’ (The Problem of Pain). Read these words again, and very closely: ‘It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; NOT BECAUSE HIS POWER MEETS AN OBSTACLE, BUT BECAUSE NONSENSE REMAINS NONSENSE EVEN WHEN WE TALK IT ABOUT GOD.’ When Lewis says that God cannot ‘carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives’ he is referring to the law of non-contradiction. He is saying that God cannot do what is logically impossible; and in this he is supported by St Thomas Aquinas, who writes that God cannot create a man who is, at the same time, a donkey; for in the statement that a man is a donkey ‘the predicate is altogether incompatible with the subject.’ (cf. Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 25; Article 3). Ludwig Ott writes: ‘To God's Infinite Reality of Being there corresponds an (intensively) Infinite Power. This extends over the whole sphere of real and possible being (extensively infinite). As God's power is identical with God's Essence, it cannot imply anything which contradicts the Essence and the Attributes of God. Thus God CANNOT CHANGE, cannot lie, can make nothing that has happened not to have happened (contrary to the teaching of St. Peter Damian), CANNOT REALISE anything which is contradictory in itself 2 Tim. 2, 13: He cannot deny himself.’ (‘Fundamental of Catholic Dogma’; page 47 - emphasis is mine). Note: God cannot realise (i.e. bring into being) that which is contradictory in itself; for example, a man who is, at the same time, a donkey; or a man who is, at the same time, God. Aquinas writes: ‘Whatever implies contradiction does not come within the scope of divine omnipotence, because it cannot have the aspect of possibility.’ (Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 25; Article 3). This means that there are certain ‘intrinsically impossible’ things that even an omnipotent God cannot do. He cannot be finite and at the same time infinite; absolutely immutable and at the same time changeable; omnipotent and at the same time powerless. To believe in a logical contradiction is to believe a lie. The puzzle is: why do Trinitarians do just that…why do they (do you) not see that doctrines associated with the ‘incarnation’ contain contradictions: God is pure spirit; is not a compound; is not anything corporeal……against: Through the act of incarnation God became - and remains - corporeal; a compound of spirit and flesh. God is immutable……against: God became a man. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ‘one immensity’…….against: One of the three is finite. Yeshua is fully God; against….Yeshua is fully man. Yeshua is a man like us in every respect……against….Yeshua has two natures, in one divine person. Why do Trinitarians accept such nonsense? The answer lies in George Orwell’s concept of ‘doublethink’: ‘(Doublethink is) the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies…. and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.’ (‘Nineteen Eighty-Four; part 2, chapter 9, page 220). The doctrine of the incarnation is a lie that owes its very existence to ‘doublethink’. No matter how hard the Trinitarians push it; no matter how often they repeat it; a lie remains a lie. |
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'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib)
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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Niblo, No one can understand God or the ways of God, and there is nothing God cannot do. I believe this is accepted in Islam as well as Christianity. Human arguments simply will not stand.
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Niblo
Groupie Male Islam Joined: 01 September 2016 Location: Leeds; UK Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Hello David. Consider this verse: ‘It is Allāh who created seven heavens and a similar (number) of earths. His command descends throughout them. So you should realize that He has power over all things and that His knowledge encompasses everything.’ (Al-Talaq) What follows is taken (verbatim) from the site ‘Islam Question and Answer’ - as part of a response to Question 87677: “An atheist saying “Can Allaah create a god like Himself?”. It is worth mentioning that this site represents the ‘puritan’ wing of Islam. Its folk are by no means wishy-washy ‘moderates’ like me! Here you are: ‘That which is impossible does not exist, because it cannot exist, so it is nothing, even if the mind can imagine it. It is known that the mind can assume and imagine the impossible, the mind can imagine two opposites, such as something existing and not existing, at the same time. ‘The verse states that Allaah has power over “things” but that does not include things that are inherently impossible, because they are not things, rather they do not exist and they cannot be brought into existence. ‘Hence more than one of the scholars have stated that the power of Allaah has to do with that which is possible, for the reason that we have mentioned, which is that that which is non-existent and impossible is not a “thing”. ‘Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: As for Ahl al-Sunnah, in their view Allaah, may He be exalted, has power over all things, and everything that is possible is included in that. As for that which is inherently impossible, such as a thing both existing and being non-existent, there is no reality in it and its existence cannot be imagined, so it cannot be called a “thing” according to the consensus of the wise. This includes the idea of creating another like Himself, and so on. End quote from Manhaaj al-Sunnah (2/294). ‘Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in Shifa’ al-‘Aleel (p. 374): Because that which is impossible is not a “thing”, so His Power has nothing to do with it. Allaah has power over all things and no possible thing is beyond His power. End quote. ‘And Allaah knows best.’ Very best regards. PS: If 'Human arguments simply will not stand' they why are you here...arguing? |
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'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib)
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Al Masihi
Senior Member Male Joined: 02 March 2018 Status: Offline Points: 141 |
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That is simply a misunderstanding and misapplication of the Principle of Non-Contradiction. The Principle states that nothing can both be and not be at the same time in the same respect. The Hypostatic Union in no way violates this because the Hypostatic Union describes the reality that Christ has two natures (Human and Divine) united in one personhood. If we were to say that Christ’s human nature was His Divine nature or his divine nature was His human nature then that would run afoul of non-contradiction. But we don’t say that. Since there are two natures there is no contradiction. Christ is indeed God by virtue of possessing a Divine Nature and He is man by virtue of possessing a human nature. Thus when we say of Christ “that is a man” and we say of Christ “that is a Divine Being” we are not violating the principle of non-contradiction because He is not both man and divine in the same respect.
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