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MIAW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 March 2018 at 2:20am
Originally posted by Al Masihi Al Masihi wrote:

That isn't a fact to say the Quran is the word of Allah which makes it unique, all religions almost have their own books even the simple pagans have books, but you might say but the Quran has never been changed also that's not true, here is an example of contradictions and variations between the modern Quran and the Samarkand Quran.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070309000028/http://www.geocities.com/pentaur2001/index.html

I have looked into the document that you presented in your link/blog above. This is another weak and dismal attempt to attack the integrity of (and discredit) the Qur’an. It has been refuted time and again.

Maybe you can fool yourself or somebody who does not know any notion of the Arabic language, but you cannot fool anybody who has even the basics of Arabic. 

 

Here are my findings (and my opinion):

-          Anyone who knows the basics of Arabic Calligraphy will tell you that the copy you presented above is a fake one. It is very untidy and erratic, therefore not Authentic Samarkand. Just compare it closely to the one here: http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarkand_Kufic_Quran

-          It has many ‘basic’ mistakes in Arabic grammar… mistakes that not even a beginner in the language will make… let alone the Early Arabs who were extremely proficient in their language… in fact, spoken Arabic literature was their main strength.

-          I really wanted to suggest some ‘basic, Arabic lessons to the owner/author of your blog above, but if you click on it, you will not find any indication as to who wrote it… Dodgy…

-          Even if we consider the (real) Samarkand copy as a reference, it does not represent the ‘Original Uthmanic’ copy anyway. Here is what you will find in  (your) Wikipedia: http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarkand_Kufic_Quran:

      “…and Uthman kept one for his own use in Medina, although the Samarkand Quran is most likely not one of those copies. The only other surviving copy was thought to be the one held in Topkapı Palace in Turkey,[1][4] but studies have shown that the Topkapı manuscript is also not from the 7th century, but from much later...”. 

-          All languages change and develop through the centuries, e.g. Shakespearian English is slightly different to English in our time, and earlier English was even more different… and so on. So if you take that as evidence that the message of the Qur’an has ‘changed’, then that tells us something about YOU… not about the Qur’an.

-          The Qur’an was revealed in ‘7 styles of recitation’, because Islam was being accepted by various (far and out, and remote) Arab tribes who had slight variations in the language… so these tribes asked our Prophet PBUH if he could ask Allah to reveal the Qur’an in a text that they could easily understand and apply in their everyday lives, and this was granted by Allah SWT. (However this is another topic).

-          Enemies of Islam keep presenting us with alleged copies of the Qur’an, with unknown authors, unknown origins, unknown scribes, and then they tells us that they are different to the original. My comment is this: There will always be a copy that you cannot touch or attempt to spoil and corrupt… it is the copy that has been handed down to us in the hearts of consecutive generations (i.e. learnt and recited  by heart)… all the way back to our Prophet PBUH. [Can you say the same about previous scriptures (bible, Torah, Injeel...etc)? No... I didn't think so.]

Now let’s look at some (obvious) loopholes in the document that you presented in your link/blog above:

-          1st alleged mistake in your document: to me, this is enough to show me that this document is fake; a beginner in Arabic will tell you that an Arab scribe would never make such a basic grammar mistake: the word ‘Ardh’ in grammar is conjugated as ‘Mudhaf’ and the word ‘Allah’ is conjugated as ‘Mudhaf ilayh’, which means that they can never both carry the Alif Laam… Simples

-          2nd alleged mistake in your document: The word ‘Naaqah’ is a feminine gendre, therefore it is impossible to use the demonstrative determiner ‘Hadha’… the correct word to use is ‘Hadhihi’.

-          3rd alleged mistake in your document: Does not make sense because no Kufi Samarqand calligraphy is presented…

-          7th alleged mistake in your document: Here: ‘ilaa’ in grammar is a ‘Harf Jarr’, therefore it must have ‘ism majroor’ following it… Where is the ‘ism majroor’? it’s missing!... nobody makes such a ‘basic’ mistake.

 

The Qur’an has neither been changed nor corrupted like the previous books, and more importantly…it never will be. It is a miracle… and here is why:

 

As I mentioned above, the Arabs at the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH had many strengths, but their main one was (all aspects of) their language (especially in the spoken form)… in fact if you look into their history (of those centuries), you will discover that almost anyone of them could come up with very advanced poetry ad hoc, impromptu, on the spot and without any planning involved (I personally find this fascinating).

 

So when the Qur’an was being revealed, it shook and shocked them, because they (the most versed in terms of language) thought that they were on top of their linguistic proficiency, but they were hearing the ‘next level’… a much higher level. In fact, that is why the Jinns were amazed at the level of Arabic when they heard it for the first time, so amazed that they believed in our prophet straight away:

 

Qur’an [72:1]

{1} قُلْ �£ُوحِيَ إِلَيَّ �£َنَّهُ اسْتَمَعَ نَفَرٌ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَقَالُوا إِنَّا سَمِعْنَا قُرْآنًا عَجَبًا

Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur-an). They said, ' We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

{2} يَهْدِي إِلَى الرُّشْدِ فَآمَنَّا بِهِ وَلَنْ نُشْرِكَ بِرَبِّنَا �£َحَدًا

'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.

 

So... in order to prove to them that this Qur’an is from Allah (and not from humans), Allah SWT challenged the then Arabs to come up with just ten chapters (Suras) similar to the Qur’an… and they failed:

 

 

Qur’an [11:13]

{13} �£َمْ يَقُولُونَ افْتَرَاهُ قُلْ فَ�£ْتُوا بِعَشْرِ سُوَرٍ مِثْلِهِ مُفْتَرَيَاتٍ وَادْعُوا مَنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

Or they may say, "He forged it." Say, "Bring ye then ten Suras forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever ye can, other than Allah! if ye speak the truth!

{14} فَإِنْ لَمْ يَسْتَجِيبُوا لَكُمْ فَاعْلَمُوا �£َنَّمَا �£ُنْزِلَ بِعِلْمِ اللَّهِ وَ�£َنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ فَهَلْ �£َنْتُمْ مُسْلِمُونَ

"If then they (your false gods) answer not your (call), know ye that this Revelation is sent down (replete) with the knowledge of Allah, and that there is no god but He! Will ye even then submit (to Islam)?"

 

 

Allah SWT then Challenged them to come up with just ONE chapter (Sura)… and they failed (in fact this time it was a ‘stronger’ challenge, because He said “if you cannot, and I am telling you from the outset that you cannot”:

 

Qur’an [2:23]

{23} وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَى عَبْدِنَا فَ�£ْتُوا بِسُورَةٍ مِنْ مِثْلِهِ وَادْعُوا شُهَدَاءَكُمْ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

{24} فَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلُوا وَلَنْ تَفْعَلُوا فَاتَّقُوا النَّارَ الَّتِي وَقُودُهَا النَّاسُ وَالْحِجَارَةُ �£ُعِدَّتْ لِلْكَافِرِينَ

But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

 

Also: Qur’an [10:37-38]

{37} وَمَا كَانَ هَذَا الْقُرْآنُ �£َنْ يُفْتَرَى مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلَكِنْ تَصْدِيقَ الَّذِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَتَفْصِيلَ الْكِتَابِ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ مِنْ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

This Qur-an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds.

{38} �£َمْ يَقُولُونَ افْتَرَاهُ قُلْ فَ�£ْتُوا بِسُورَةٍ مِثْلِهِ وَادْعُوا مَنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

Or do they say, "He forged it?" Say: "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!"




Also: Qur’an [17:88]





So, The Qur'an is truly a miracle that has stood the test of time, and proven itself through the centuries. We have nothing more to prove to anybody.

Oh dear... You say that you have left Islam for another religion... Well... all I can say is: if it's because of 'blogs' like the one you presented above, then that tells me everything about you.









Edited by MIAW - 11 March 2018 at 12:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Masihi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 March 2018 at 4:10am
Anyone who has no idea about the history of the Middle East would say the strongest thing Arabs had was their language, remember most of what we know about pre Islamic Arabia was most probably fabricated to fit for the narrative of Islam. Arabic is a relatively new language as most Arabs at the time were still writing using the Syriac and Aramaic script according to tradition the first Arab tribe to write in their own Arabic script which was about a few hundred years before the rise of Mohammed and Islam. Even ancient Yemenites the so called pure Arabs were known to write using a script closely related to Amharic. Muslims are commonly told that the differences between the Qira'at can be explained away as styles of pronunciation or dialects and spelling. Yet in many cases the variations added or ommitted words, or are completely different words or contradict each other in meaning. The Corpus Coranicum database can be used as a neutral online source for verifying the existence of such variations in the Qira'at. An interesting example is given below, and more of them are listed in the next section about the popular Hafs and Warsh transmissions. In Qur'an 18:86, Dhu'l Qarnayn finds the sun setting in a muddy spring, according to the Qira'at used by today's most popular transmissions of the Qur'an. However, in around half of the various Qira'at the sun intead sets in a warm spring. The latter variant is even used in some English translations. It is easy to see how the corruption arose (whichever one is the variant). The arabic word حَمِئَة (hami'atin - muddy) sounds very similar to the completely different word حَامِيَة (hamiyyatin - warm). Al-Tabari records in his tafseer for this verse the differing opinions on whether the sun sets in muddy or warm water. Also keep in mind that Arabic was pretty much developing as a language at the time.

Edited by Al Masihi - 06 March 2018 at 5:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 March 2018 at 2:26pm
@Asep
When you open this link  on the Sanaa manuscript you'll find a list of differences.
The Tashkent and Topkapi are written in Kufic writing, which is also not the case anymore.
That there has never been a copy being made publicly accessible speaks also for itself ( I let you guess why !)
Furthermore; Uthman burned deviating versions as it is also acknowledged in the Muslim world. So there must have been alternative forms. Do you think these alternative form were all written "by enemies from within" as Miaw likes to call them.

Last not least: What do you really mean by "preserved" ?

- Books differ by chemistry (wood and ink) and page formatting
- The pronunciation (and writing) has changed over 1400 years
- The interpretation of it is so disputed amongst Muslims that the wording "the message" becomes highly blurred if not outright meaningless.
- Now you may still speculate about a "divine book in heaven" where all earthly versions are a bad copy of the original. (But frankly this is an old trick that the Mormons master equally well.)
May be, but this doesn't make the preservation (on earth) less faulty.

@Miaw: 
Here comes a magnificent surah which I'm sure nobody (including Mohamed) can do any better:

"Valkovuokkoa on jo kauan siirretty luonnosta puutarhojen kaunistukseksi. 
Monet nykyisin luonnonvaraiset valkovuokkoesiitymät ovatkin peräisin siirtoistutuksissa, 
varsinkin pohjoisessa."



Airmano


Edited by airmano - 07 March 2018 at 2:32pm
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 March 2018 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

...
@Miaw: 
Here comes a magnificent surah which I'm sure nobody (including Mohamed) can do any better:

"Valkovuokkoa on jo kauan siirretty luonnosta puutarhojen kaunistukseksi. 
Monet nykyisin luonnonvaraiset valkovuokkoesiitymät ovatkin peräisin siirtoistutuksissa, 
varsinkin pohjoisessa."...



Hyvä Airmano, tiedät hyvin, ettei tämä ole surah. Olen kuitenkin hämmästynyt siitä, että sinulla on kiinnostusta puutarhanhoitoon ja ruusuihin.


MIAW








Edited by MIAW - 08 March 2018 at 12:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 March 2018 at 2:01pm
@Miaw

What makes you say that what I wrote is not a surah ?  Because it  talks of real objects instead of fiery beings (made of smokeless fire), etherlike angels which only your prophet could see and little shiny silver dragons (that sure exists somewhere in another dimension) as your book does ?

So I take the challenge and claim: What I wrote is unique and can not be imitated/improved by anybody. Try to prove the opposite. 


Airmano


Edited by airmano - 08 March 2018 at 2:04pm
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sufi Islam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2018 at 7:34am
Originally posted by Al Masihi Al Masihi wrote:

I have a question on what makes Islam unique to other religions?

In my opinion, Islam is more advanced and more developed than other religions (Christianity and Judaism). We have the hadith and the Sunnah, full of many examples of good, honourable actions for us to follow. 

It's true that Christians have Jesus, but they also have the Old Testament and the Trinity and many confusing things. It's also true Islam is a complicated subject and the more we learn about it, the more we realise we didn't know the full depth of Islam. Scholars have spent a life time studying and there is always more to learn. 

Maybe the best example is to look at the historical record. The achievements of Islam and the Muslims are amazing, perhaps more amazing than any other world civilisation. The western society of today is sometimes considered the most powerful, but at what cost? Capitalism, accumulation of material wealth, destroying the natural world? Climate change, rising sea levels, out of control weather and natural disasters? 

Modern society is playing with fire in my opinion and while there are many good things about the modern technology, we really need to be careful. These days people are worshipping money and oil and many other things instead of remembering Allah. Islam offers us a path to know God and the self. What other religions have depth of understanding like Islam? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asep garut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2018 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Asep
When you open this link  on the Sanaa manuscript you'll find a list of differences.
The Tashkent and Topkapi are written in Kufic writing, which is also not the case anymore.
That there has never been a copy being made publicly accessible speaks also for itself ( I let you guess why !)
Furthermore; Uthman burned deviating versions as it is also acknowledged in the Muslim world. So there must have been alternative forms. Do you think these alternative form were all written "by enemies from within" as Miaw likes to call them.

Last not least: What do you really mean by "preserved" ?

- Books differ by chemistry (wood and ink) and page formatting
- The pronunciation (and writing) has changed over 1400 years
- The interpretation of it is so disputed amongst Muslims that the wording "the message" becomes highly blurred if not outright meaningless.
- Now you may still speculate about a "divine book in heaven" where all earthly versions are a bad copy of the original. (But frankly this is an old trick that the Mormons master equally well.)
May be, but this doesn't make the preservation (on earth) less faulty.

Airmano

At the time of the Prophet Muhammad was still alive, there were many companions of the Prophet who could read and write: Muawiyah. Yazid, Umar ibn Khathab, Uthman ibn Affan, Ali ibn Abi Talib, Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, Talha ibn Abdullah, Abu Ubaidah ibn Jarah, Hudzaifah ibn al-Yaman, Abu Hurairah, Abu al-Darda 'and Abu Musa al-Ash'ari. Uthman was one of the four closest friends and trusted by the Prophet Muhammad.

They wrote verses of the Qur'an in several tools such as date palms, stone plates, leaves, skin and bones, based on the reading as it is, according to the composition of the language as well as the words. The activity lasted from the time of the Qur'an down in Makkah for about 13 years, and at al-Madinah for about 10 years.

Every year the Angel Gabriel always comes to the Prophet to establish the reading and deeper understanding, and all the verses are always the Prophet convey and told the companions who he considers to have the qualities of Shiddiq (honest), Amanah (can be trusted), Tabligh (convey the truth), and Fathanah (intelligent), either one verse, two verses or more, and he read it exactly as Jibril taught, because Allah guarantees his unity in him as in His word: (Al-Qiyamah 75: 16-19).

16. Move not your tongue concerning the Qur’an to make haste therewith.

17. It is for Us to collect it and to give you (Muhammad) the ability to recite it (the Qur’an).

18. And when We have recited it to you through Gabriel, then follow its the Qur’an’s recital.

19. Then it is for Allah to make it clear to you.

And the Prophet Muhammad read all the verses to his friends (including Uthman) exactly as Gabriel taught.

The Uthman Caliph's initiative to bind the Qur'an to the writers' team for the Qur'an to be recorded by using Quraish is a historical fact that can not be denied, not a traditional explanation.

What the Caliph 'Uthman implies is that everything in this world will be damaged including the means by which the verses of the Qur'an are written, such as date palms, stone plates, leaves, etc.

Based on that thought, Uthman immediately ordered his members in the binding of the Qur'an to remember that all in this world will be "fana" (broken), he chose people who are really close to the Prophet Muhammad like Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Zubair, Sa 'id bin Al-Ash, and Abdul Rahman bin Hisham.

Al Hijr 15:9

“Verily, We, it is We who have sent down the Dhikr (Qur’an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)”

And what I mean "preserved" is the content of the word of Allah, not the tools or the places where the words of Allah are written.

Anyone can make a difference in both the Qur'anic and the translations, but for those who are included in Surah Al-Hijr 15:9 above, it will be able to distinguish between what is original and what is not.

Al Baqarah 2:269

“He grants "Hikmah" to whom He pleases, and he, to whom "Hikmah" is granted, is indeed granted abundant good. But none remember (will receive admonition) except men of understanding.”

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debatedebate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2018 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:

17. It is for Us to collect it and to give you (Muhammad) the ability to recite it (the Qur’an).


Allah collected the Quran? Before that it was scattered?

Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:

18. And when We have recited it to you through Gabriel, then follow its the Qur’an’s recital.

19. Then it is for Allah to make it clear to you.

Allah also revealed that no one can understand some of revelation except him, so whats the point? (in fact this verse is self contradictory)

He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. (Quran 3 7)

Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:

And the Prophet Muhammad read all the verses to his friends (including Uthman) exactly as Gabriel taught.
Making a claim to prove another? Hmm..how could anyone verify that when he's the only one supposedly in  touch with Gabriel?

Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:

What the Caliph 'Uthman implies is that everything in this world will be damaged including the means by which the verses of the Qur'an are written, such as date palms, stone plates, leaves, etc.
Nevermind the date palms/leaves, where is the original manuscript on stone plates? Uthman destroyed them along the other copies of Qurans he burned? And did Allah give the him right to rearrange/change location/sequence of the revelation in the Quran you have now? Isn't that corruption?


Besides, your own Sunnah narrates that the Quran was not well preserved;

It was narrated that 'Aishah said:

“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed(1), and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

 (1): These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5.

English reference   : Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1944 Sunan Ibn Majah » The Chapters on Marriage - كتاب النكاح

Arabic reference     : Book 9, Hadith 2020
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