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DavidC View Drop Down
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Points: 2474 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2018 at 3:34pm
Interesting points, Ovibos. You are not wrong. The similarities between Moses and Muhammed are striking.
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Al Masihi View Drop Down
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Moses's revelations were witnessed by the whole nation of Israel, Mohammed's supposed "revelations" were not witnessed by anyone but himself. Moses performed miracles in front of all to see and these miracles are sometimes recorded in history, yet Mohammed and his "splitting of the moon we don't find that outside of the writings of the Quran, Hadith, and other Islamic writings. Mohammed was an Arab from the Quraysh while Moses was an Israelite and Jew. When the Pharaoh came to chase down the Israelites Moses turned to face them and with the will of God himself, he split the sea. When the Quraysh came to chase down Mohammed he fled in fear to Medina and was luckily taken in by the Ansar. I don't see many similarities.
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ovibos View Drop Down
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Points: 34 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ovibos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2018 at 12:29am
Thanks David

And moreover:

According to the Qumrans (the people of the Dead Sea Scrolls), there are two Messiahs (cf Zechariah 4:14), that is:
1. Priestly Messiah of Aaron
2. Royal Messiah (of David)

Which one is Jesus: the priestly messiah or the royal messiah?
The Christians think that Jesus is the Messiah of David, i.e. Jesus is David's descendant. 
Is it true? whereas Jesus himself said, "If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?"

There's a verse in the Quran where people called Mary the mother of Jesus as  "sister of Aaron" (Q 19:28)
Many non-muslims mock this verse since they think the Quran mistakenly identifies Mary the mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Moses. But that is not the case. There's no error in this verse (Q 19:28)

Quote "Ibn Kathir reported:

علي بن �£بي طلحة والسدي قيل لها يٰ�£ُخْتَ هَـٰرُونَ �£ي �£خي موسى وكانت من نسله

Alli ibn Abu Talha and As-Suddi said: It was said to her: O sister of Aaron (19:28), meaning the brother of Moses because she was from among his descendants.

Ibn Kathir added:

كما يقال للتميمي يا �£خا تميم وللمضري يا �£خا مضر

This is like saying to somebody from the Tamimi tribe: O brother of at-Tamim, or to somebody from the al-Mudari tribe: O brother of Mudar.

Source: Tafseer Ibn Kathir, verse 19:28

Muhammad Asad comments on the verse, saying:

In ancient Semitic usage, a person’s name was often linked with that of a renowned ancestor or founder of the tribal line. Thus, for instance, a man of the tribe of Banu Tamim was sometimes addressed as “son of Tamim” or “brother of Tamim.” Since Mary belonged to the priestly caste, and hence descended from Aaron, the brother of Moses, she was called a “sister of Aaron,” in the same way as her cousin Elizabeth, the wife of Zachariah, is spoken of in Luke 1:5 as one of “the daughters of Aaron.”

Source: Message of the Quran" "(source) "

In other words, the Quran informs us that biologically Jesus is the descendant of Aaron (tribe of Levi), not David (tribe of Judah). This is why David calls hims as "my Lord" not "my son" because the tribe of Levi has a higher position than the tribe of Judah, as Judah himslef stated:

AND now, my children, I command you, love Levi, that ye may abide, and exalt not yourselves against him, lest ye be utterly destroyed.

2 For to me the Lord gave the kingdom, and to him the priesthood, and He set the kingdom beneath the priesthood.

3 To me He gave the things upon the earth; to him the things in the heavens.

4 As the heaven is higher than the earth, so is the priesthood of God higher than the earthly kingdom  (Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Judah 21)
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ovibos View Drop Down
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Points: 34 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ovibos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2018 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Al Masihi Al Masihi wrote:

Moses's revelations were witnessed by the whole nation of Israel, Mohammed's supposed "revelations" were not witnessed by anyone but himself. Moses performed miracles in front of all to see and these miracles are sometimes recorded in history, yet Mohammed and his "splitting of the moon we don't find that outside of the writings of the Quran, Hadith, and other Islamic writings. Mohammed was an Arab from the Quraysh while Moses was an Israelite and Jew. When the Pharaoh came to chase down the Israelites Moses turned to face them and with the will of God himself, he split the sea. When the Quraysh came to chase down Mohammed he fled in fear to Medina and was luckily taken in by the Ansar. I don't see many similarities.

If you expect a prophet that 100% identical to Moses, you will not find such person in history ever.
Deuteronomy states: "But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, 11 in all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt, before Pharaoh, before all his servants, and in all his land, 12 and by all that mighty power and all the great terror which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel."

It means that all miracles performed in the land of Egypt won't happen again for the second time.
So, please don't expect a prophet who performs miracles like Moses did.

The Jews reject Jesus because they think Jesus didn't fulfill 100% the requirements of a Messiah or the signs of the Prophet.
It is stated in the Quran:

Indeed, We gave Moses the Book and sent after him successive messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the holy spirit. Why is it that every time a messenger comes to you ˹Israelites˺ with something you do not like, you become arrogant, rejecting some and killing others? (Q 2:87)

In other words, Jesus was rejected by the Jews because Jesus did NOT perfectly match the figure of the Messiah and/or the Prophet that the Jews wanted.

However, you have to consider this:
What is the best thing that Moses brought to the Israelites? Is it his staff? Is it the plagues? Is it because Moses split the Sea? NO!
In my opinion the best thing that Moses gave to the Israelites is the LAW, or the Book of Moses, that evolved to what we know today as the Torah.
It is the LAW that brought the Israelites from darkness into the light.

Likewise, the greatest "miracle" of Muhammad is the Quran.
It is the Quran that brought the Arabs from darkness into the light.
It is the Quran that changed the characters of the Arabs drastically
It is the Quran that changed the Arabs from lawlessness to be civilized people.
It is the Quran that inspired the Muslims centuries after the death of prophet Muhammad, that Muslims in those days once became one of the most civilized nations in the world.

The Quran and the Torah have many similarities.
Both books talk about the One True God.
Both books state that there is no god except Him.
Both books instruct how to behave, the do's and the don'ts, distinguish between lawful and unlawful, etc.
In fact, the Quran states that there is no book better than those two (the Quran and the Book of Moses) (Q 28:49)

Now take a closer look on these verses:

I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18)

All suras in the Quran begin with: in the Name of God. (Well, all except one actually)
In fact, the first verse revealed to prophet Muhammad is: "Recite in the Name of your Lord who created" (Q 96:1)

You also can see some other similarities of Moses and Muhammad as follows:

Quote In terms of the emphasis on his mission, we find that Moses’ mission was both spiritual and legal; he brought about a law. So did Muhammad. Jesus’ mission, on the other hand, was spiritual. Actually, he said ‘Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill’ (Mathew 5:17).

Regarding acceptance of leadership: Moses’ leadership was, for the most part, accepted by his people. They may have given him a hard time but his leadership was accepted during his lifetime. The same is true for Muhammad. Whereas Jesus himself complained that his leadership was not accepted, but was resisted, by the very people he was sent to- the Israelites. He mentions this often.

In terms of career, we find that Moses had a career both as a prophet and as a governor/ ruler to implement the divine law. Such is the same for Muhammad. In the case of Jesus, his career did not include that authority.

In terms of battles and encounters with enemies: We find that Moses did encounter his enemies, the Egyptians and they were drowned- he had victory over them. Muhammad did encounter the pagans that tried to destroy him and his followers and he had victory over them in the battlefield. No such event occurs, in terms of physical combat, in the case of Prophet Jesus may peace and blessings be upon him.

In terms of the mission: We find that the mission of Prophet Moses was completed in a sense that he not only succeeded in his preaching, but also established a new order following those commandments. The same thing is applicable to Muhammad. Before his death, there was already an Islamic community that was victorious over its enemies. In the case of Jesus, we find the opposite is true. The persecution of Christians persisted for many years to come and not until the year 325, when Constantine was said to have embraced Christianity, did the pressures on Christians begin to lighten.
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Al Masihi View Drop Down
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Points: 141 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Masihi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 March 2018 at 12:44am
Many verses say Jesus was a son of David and I find it strange Muslims can't agree on a single interpretation of that one verse some say that she is the literal descendant of Aaron yet others say it is sister in faith while others actually think she's related as in this Surah we find Mary, the mother of Jesus, is also called "daughter of Imran" in sura 66:

And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and was of the obedient.
Qur'an 66:12
Imran is an Arabic form of the name Amram. Amram was the father of Moses, Aaron and Miriam. So the Qur'an mentions Mary in the same family relationship as Miriam. Since Ibn Kathir put two possible solutions for this problem, he was probably not sure about any of them. Otherwise he would put just one (either she is a descendant "sister" of Aaron or she had an actual brother coincidentally called Aaron). The Qur'an literally says "sister (�£ُخْتَ) of Aaron" and people understood the verse to literally mean "sister of Aaron". Only when Muhammad came to know that it was wrong, the meaning changed into "a descendant of Aaron". In the Christian sources she is said to be from the family of David, so why is the Qur'an saying she is from the family of Aaron? Some apologists point out that in Luke 1:5, Elizabeth is said to be a descendant of Aaron and in Luke 1:36 Mary is said to be a cousin or relative of Mary. But just because Mary is a cousin or somehow related to Elizabeth, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are both descendants of Aaron.

If Mary was known to be a descendant of Aaron, then why the Arab Christians (and Aisha and Mughira b. Shu'ba) from Muhammad's time didn't know about it?

This also doesn't explain why in the 3rd sura she is described as an actual daughter of Amram.

Muhammad's companions and even Aisha, all understood the Qur'an to mean she is literally the sister of Aaron. Tafsir Ibn Kathir in its non-abridged Arabic version says this:

وَقَالَ اِبْن جَرِير حَدَّثَنِي يَعْقُوب حَدَّثَنَا اِبْن عُلَيَّة عَنْ سَعِيد بْن �£َبِي صَدَقَة عَنْ مُحَمَّد بْن سِيرِينَ قَالَ �£ُنْبِئْت �£َنَّ كَعْبًا قَالَ إِنَّ قَوْله : " يَا �£ُخْت هَارُون " لَيْسَ بِهَارُون �£َخِي مُوسَى قَالَ فَقَالَتْ لَهُ عَائِشَة كَذَبْت قَالَ يَا �£ُمّ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِنْ كَانَ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَهُ فَهُوَ �£َعْلَم وَ�£َخْبَر وَإِلَّا فَإِنِّي �£َجِد بَيْنهمَا سِتّمِائَةِ سَنَة قَالَ فَسَكَتَتْ وَفِي هَذَا التَّارِيخ نَظَر

It was narrated from Ibn Jarir, narrated from Yaqub, narrated from Ibn U’laya, narrated from Sa’id Ibn Abi Sadaqa, narrated from Muhammad Ibn Sireen who stated that he was told that Ka’b said the verse that reads, "O sister of Harun (Aaron)!" (of Sura 19:28) does not refer to Aaron the brother of Moses. Aisha replied to Ka’b, "You have lied." Ka’b responded, "O Mother of the believers! If the prophet, may Allah’s prayers be upon him, has said it, and he is more knowledgeable, then this is what he related. Besides, I find the difference in time between them (Jesus and Moses) to be 600 years." He said that she remained silent.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (non-abridged) on 19:28 [2]
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Al Masihi View Drop Down
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Points: 141 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Masihi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 March 2018 at 12:46am
Seventeen verses in the New Testament describe Jesus as the “son of David.” But the question arises, how could Jesus be the son of David if David lived approximately 1,000 years before Jesus? The answer is that Christ (the Messiah) was the fulfillment of the prophecy of the seed of David (2 Samuel 7:12–16). Jesus is the promised Messiah, which means He had to be of the lineage of David. Matthew 1 gives the genealogical proof that Jesus, in His humanity, was a direct descendant of Abraham and David through Joseph, Jesus’ legal father. The genealogy in Luke 3 traces Jesus’ lineage through His mother, Mary. Jesus is a descendant of David by adoption through Joseph and by blood through Mary. “As to his earthly life [Christ Jesus] was a descendant of David” (Romans 1:3).

Primarily, the title “Son of David” is more than a statement of physical genealogy. It is a Messianic title. When people referred to Jesus as the Son of David, they meant that He was the long-awaited Deliverer, the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies.

Jesus was addressed as “Lord, thou son of David” several times by people who, by faith, were seeking mercy or healing. The woman whose daughter was being tormented by a demon (Matthew 15:22) and the two blind men by the wayside (Matthew 20:30) all cried out to the Son of David for help. The titles of honor they gave Him declared their faith in Him. Calling Him “Lord” expressed their sense of His deity, dominion, and power, and calling Him “Son of David,” expressed their faith that He was the Messiah.

The Pharisees understood exactly what the people meant when they called Jesus “Son of David.” But, unlike those who cried out in faith, the Pharisees were so blinded by their own pride that they couldn’t see what the blind beggars could see—that here was the Messiah they had supposedly been waiting for all their lives. They hated Jesus because He wouldn’t give them the honor they thought they deserved, so when they heard the people hailing Jesus as the Savior, they became enraged (Matthew 21:15) and plotted to destroy Him (Luke 19:47).

Jesus further confounded the scribes and Pharisees by asking them to explain the meaning of this very title: how could it be that the Messiah is the son of David when David himself refers to Him as “my Lord” (Mark 12:35–37; cf. Psalm 110:1)? The teachers of the Law couldn’t answer the question. Jesus thereby exposed the Jewish leaders’ ineptitude as teachers and their ignorance of what the Old Testament taught as to the true nature of the Messiah, further alienating them from Him.

Jesus’ point in asking the question of Mark 12:35 was that the Messiah is more than the physical son of David. If He is David’s Lord, He must be greater than David. As Jesus says in Revelation 22:16, “I am the Root and the Offspring of David.” That is, He is both the Creator of David and the Descendant of David. Only the Son of God made flesh could say that.
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DavidC View Drop Down
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I have not read the testament of the twelve patriarchs. I will need to get back with you on that.
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ovibos View Drop Down
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Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

I have not read the testament of the twelve patriarchs. I will need to get back with you on that.

in case the Testament of the Twelve Patriarch is not convincing enough, there's another "proof" that Levi has a higher position than Judah in the Book of Jubilee Chapter 31:

In the Book of Jubilee, Isaac gave blessings to two of Jacob's sons, that is Levi and Judah. Isaac blessed Levi first by his right hand, and then he blessed Judah by his left hand. It reminds me how Jacob blessed Ephraim and Manasseh, which we know that Ephraim became greater than Mannaseh.

Quote And the spirit of prophecy came down into his mouth, and he took Levi by his right hand and Judah by his left.
And he turned to Levi first, and began to bless him first .... [and then] to Judah... (the Book of Jubilee Chapter 31)
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