I have a question

airmano wrote: @asep And what I mean "preserved" is the content of the word of Allah, not the tools or the places where the words of Allah are written. Can you try to be more specific ? Allah has never "spoken" [a word] in a physical sense. So, could you try to define the terms: "content" and "word of Allah" more precisely ?  Thanks:  Airmano ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @DebateDebate I always liked the story of the Surah on adultery  kept by Aisha(!) before it got eaten by a goat. (Ooups, too bad !) Never mind, something that is gone can at least not get corrupted anymore.

In every human being there is a soul, including the Prophet Muhammad, and one of the ways Allah conveys revelation to the Prophet Muhammad is by the way Allah speaks into his soul through the Angel Gabriel (42:51)

debatedebate wrote: asep garut wrote: Yes, this means that Allah gathers His word in Muhammad's heart, and after he has mastered and understood it, it is his duty to deliver all His words to all humanity. The prophet has a tendency to forget verses, so what's the guarantee he managed to deliver all of Allah's words to all? 'A'isha reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by a man in the mosque. Thereupon he said: May Allah have mercy upon him; be reminded me of the verse which I had been made to forget Reference : Sahih Muslim 788 b The Book of Prayer - Travellers In-book reference : Book 6, Hadith 266 USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 4, Hadith 1721 asep garut wrote: Yes ... in the Qur'an there are verses mutasyabihat (allegorical) and these verses will only be believed and understood by people who are good at using his mind. (.....but only men of understanding really heed. (Quran 3:7) “.....Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Are those who know equal with those who know not? But only men of understanding will pay heed.” (Qur’an 39:9) Allah says: 1. I have given clear revelation but 2.No one can understand some verses except me but 3. Some who can use their mind can understand them Let the forum member decide whether these makes sense or obviously full of contradiction. asep garut wrote: The Prophet Muhammah is an honest man because in his life he feels that Allah is always watching him, even Allah says as its proof that he conveyed all verses to his Companions even to all people around him about the word of Allah without added or subtracted. "Nor does he speak (Qur'an) of (his own) desire." "It is only a Revelation revealed." (Qur'an 53: 3, 4) These verses were actually Quran defending your prophet when the pagan Arabs were accusing him of making up verses and claiming it as revelation. Anyhow claims from the Quran that Allah is watching is no prove that the Quran is not corrupted/ well preserved. You mentioned about his Companion, well Abu Musa al-Ash'ari himself testified to  the existence of surahs that are no longer in the Qur'an because they were forgotten. Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13). Reference           : Sahih Muslim 1050 The Book of Zakat In-book reference           : Book 12, Hadith 156 USC-MSA web (English) reference           : Book 5, Hadith 2286 asep garut wrote: Only those who believe in the word of Allah will believe all His words in the Qur'an (15:9), and I am one of those who believe it. Which will be broken or destroyed is the place where His words were written, not the essence of His words. All that is in this world will be destroyed except Allah. Quran 15:9 says Allah will be the guardian of the Quran.Where did you get the assertion that His written words may be destroyed but not the essence of the word? So the written Quran may not be well preserved? Need I say more... asep garut wrote: The main source of law for Muslims is the Qur'an which all the contents are Allah's words, while the Hadits there are sahih (valid), Dhoif (false), and necessary in search of verification through the Qur'an. My friend, the 5 pillars of Islam are from the Hadiths not the Quran, It shows how central are the hadiths are in the your faith. As for the validity of hadiths, Al-Bukhari & Muslim are sahih. As for the other hadiths, your Muslim scholars had removed all rejected hadiths from the books. Only accepted narrations are remain. Daif mean weak but not rejected. Anyway none of the sunnah that I have refered so far is Daif. Please show me if I did. Thanks

debatedebate,

You say : “The prophet has a tendency to forget verses, so what's the guarantee he managed to deliver all of Allah's words to all?”

All human beings have a tendency to forget, but are different from the word of Allah that has been conveyed to the Prophet Muhammad. I repeated it again for His guarantee: (15: 9)

 إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُۥ لَحٰفِظُونَ ﴿الحجر:٩

“Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (Qur’an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)”

Yes.... .”No one can understand some verses except me”

This is a proof that human science will not be higher than Allah, not even the same.

As a reflection of mankind:

If human knowledge is equal to Allah, so there will be many of God, then this world has already ruined since a long time ago. Here is the proof: (21:22)

 لَوْ كَانَ فِيهِمَآ ءَالِهَةٌ إِلَّا اللَّـهُ لَفَسَدَتَا ۚ فَسُبْحٰنَ اللَّـهِ رَبِّ الْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ ﴿ال�£نبياء:٢٢

“If there were therein gods beside Allah, then verily both (the heavens and the earth) had been disordered. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, from all that they ascribe (unto Him).”

You say: “Anyhow claims from the Quran that Allah is watching is no prove that the Quran is not corrupted/ well preserved.”

Here is the proof that Allah is watching all of us (not only to prophet Muhammad): 57:4

 وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ �£َيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ ۚ وَاللَّـهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ ﴿الحديد:٤

“.....And He is with you wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.”

Human opinion is likely to be different, but the word of Allah will not be different because only Allah who speaks. The verses in the Qur'an are Qath'i, which means clear and definitive to the truth, whereas hadith is Dhanni (need a proof from the Qur'an), and not all hadiths come from the Prophet Muhammad.

You say: “Where did you get the assertion that His written words may be destroyed but not the essence of the word? So the written Quran may not be well preserved?”

What I mean is all Allah's Words in the correct Qur'an now (not the false Qur'an), that's what will always be preserved by Allah until the end of time.

Not only in today, but from time immemorial also there are people who want to make false but failed Qur'an (Musailamah al Kazzab and others), around the middle of 2005 have been discussed also about the fake Qur'an, but failed. And all words of Allah in the Qur'an will always be preserved even though there are people who want to eliminate it from the surface of this earth. (61: 8)

 يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِـُٔوا۟ نُورَ اللَّـهِ بِ�£َفْوٰهِهِمْ وَاللَّـهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِهِۦ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكٰفِرُونَ ﴿الصف:٨

“They intend to put out the Light of Allah (i.e. the Religion of Islam, this Qur’an, and the Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allah will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate it.”

Then, I am not rejecting all hadiths, but the first source of Islamic law must be believed is the words of Allah in the Qur'an, and the second is the hadith, and then the Ijma '

Oh yes .... if I look at the way you give opinion or question, there's almost similarity with a previous discussion friend, his name is "Saved" in this forum.

Thanks.