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ovibos
Newbie Joined: 14 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Thanks David And moreover: According to the Qumrans (the people of the Dead Sea Scrolls), there are two Messiahs (cf Zechariah 4:14), that is: 1. Priestly Messiah of Aaron 2. Royal Messiah (of David) Which one is Jesus: the priestly messiah or the royal messiah? The Christians think that Jesus is the Messiah of David, i.e. Jesus is David's descendant. Is it true? whereas Jesus himself said, "If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?" There's a verse in the Quran where people called Mary the mother of Jesus as "sister of Aaron" (Q 19:28) Many non-muslims mock this verse since they think the Quran mistakenly identifies Mary the mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Moses. But that is not the case. There's no error in this verse (Q 19:28)
In other words, the Quran informs us that biologically Jesus is the descendant of Aaron (tribe of Levi), not David (tribe of Judah). This is why David calls hims as "my Lord" not "my son" because the tribe of Levi has a higher position than the tribe of Judah, as Judah himslef stated: AND now, my children, I command you, love Levi, that ye may abide, and exalt not yourselves against him, lest ye be utterly destroyed. 2 For to me the Lord gave the kingdom, and to him the priesthood, and He set the kingdom beneath the priesthood. 3 To me He gave the things upon the earth; to him the things in the heavens. 4 As the heaven is higher than the earth, so is the priesthood of God higher than the earthly kingdom (Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Judah 21) |
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Al Masihi
Senior Member Male Joined: 02 March 2018 Status: Offline Points: 141 |
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Moses's revelations were witnessed by the whole nation of Israel, Mohammed's supposed "revelations" were not witnessed by anyone but himself. Moses performed miracles in front of all to see and these miracles are sometimes recorded in history, yet Mohammed and his "splitting of the moon we don't find that outside of the writings of the Quran, Hadith, and other Islamic writings. Mohammed was an Arab from the Quraysh while Moses was an Israelite and Jew. When the Pharaoh came to chase down the Israelites Moses turned to face them and with the will of God himself, he split the sea. When the Quraysh came to chase down Mohammed he fled in fear to Medina and was luckily taken in by the Ansar. I don't see many similarities.
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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Interesting points, Ovibos. You are not wrong. The similarities between Moses and Muhammed are striking.
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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ovibos
Newbie Joined: 14 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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@ airmano
I didn't say that Islam is unique because it's the latest religion. I'm saying that Islam acknowledges the previous Scriptures, and the believers are required to believe in those Scriptures and believe in the former prophets like Moses, John the Baptist, and Jesus. Mormons, on the other hand, reject the Quran and deny prophet Muhammad. According to Gospel of John, around 20-30 AD the Jews were expecting three different figures (not just one), that is the Messiah, Elijah, and the Prophet. (According to the Rule of Community (DSS), the Qumrans were also waiting for three different figures as well, that is the Prophet like Moses and the Messiahs (plural) of Aaron and Israel). I want to point out that the Messiah is different from the Prophet. Today, the Jews are still expecting them (or him?). They failed to recognize that some of those figures mentioned above had come. So they denied John the Baptist, Jesus, and prophet Muhammad. The Christians believe that the Elijah is John the Baptist, and both the Messiah and the Prophet are one person, that is Jesus. They don't realize that actually the Messiah and the Prophet are different persons. Muslims believe all prophets, including Jesus, John the Baptist, and Muhammad. And Islam, in my opinion, is the only religion who recognize those figures properly, that is, Jesus is the Messiah, while Muhammad is the Prophet like Moses. |
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asep garut
Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2017 Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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debatedebate, You say : “The prophet has a tendency to forget verses, so what's the guarantee he managed to deliver all of Allah's words to all?” All human beings have a tendency to forget, but are different from the word of Allah that has been conveyed to the Prophet Muhammad. I repeated it again for His guarantee: (15: 9) إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُۥ لَحٰفِظُونَ ﴿الحجر:٩ “Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (Qur’an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)” Yes.... .”No one can understand some verses except me” This is a proof that human science will not be higher than Allah, not even the same. As a reflection of mankind: If human knowledge is equal to Allah, so there will be many of God, then this world has already ruined since a long time ago. Here is the proof: (21:22) لَوْ كَانَ فِيهِمَآ ءَالِهَةٌ إِلَّا اللَّـهُ لَفَسَدَتَا ۚ فَسُبْحٰنَ اللَّـهِ رَبِّ الْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ ﴿ال�£نبياء:٢٢ “If there were therein gods beside Allah, then verily both (the heavens and the earth) had been disordered. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, from all that they ascribe (unto Him).” You say: “Anyhow claims from the Quran that Allah is watching is no prove that the Quran is not corrupted/ well preserved.” Here is the proof that Allah is watching all of us (not only to prophet Muhammad): 57:4 وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ �£َيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ ۚ وَاللَّـهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ ﴿الحديد:٤ “.....And He is with you wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.” Human opinion is likely to be different, but the word of Allah will not be different because only Allah who speaks. The verses in the Qur'an are Qath'i, which means clear and definitive to the truth, whereas hadith is Dhanni (need a proof from the Qur'an), and not all hadiths come from the Prophet Muhammad. You say: “Where did you get the assertion that His written words may be destroyed but not the essence of the word? So the written Quran may not be well preserved?” What I mean is all Allah's Words in the correct Qur'an now (not the false Qur'an), that's what will always be preserved by Allah until the end of time. Not only in today, but from time immemorial also there are people who want to make false but failed Qur'an (Musailamah al Kazzab and others), around the middle of 2005 have been discussed also about the fake Qur'an, but failed. And all words of Allah in the Qur'an will always be preserved even though there are people who want to eliminate it from the surface of this earth. (61: 8) يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِـُٔوا۟ نُورَ اللَّـهِ بِ�£َفْوٰهِهِمْ وَاللَّـهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِهِۦ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكٰفِرُونَ ﴿الصف:٨ “They intend to put out the Light of Allah (i.e. the Religion of Islam, this Qur’an, and the Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allah will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate it.” Then, I am not rejecting all hadiths, but the first source of Islamic law must be believed is the words of Allah in the Qur'an, and the second is the hadith, and then the Ijma ' Oh
yes .... if I look at the way you give opinion or question, there's almost
similarity with a previous discussion friend, his name is "Saved"
in this forum. Thanks.
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airmano
Senior Member Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
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@Ovibos
Wrong religion, you missed the latest update. It is the mormons and the "book of mormons". Airmano
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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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ovibos
Newbie Joined: 14 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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The Sadducees believe only in the Torah but they reject anything else The Jews believe in the Tanakh (Old Testament) but they reject the Gospel The Christians believe in the Bible but they reject the Quran The Muslims believe in the Quran along with the Scriptures before it, including the Scrolls of Abraham and Moses (suhuf Ibrahim wa Musa), the Torah, and the Gospel. There's a saying in a hadith: "Wisdom is the lost property of the believer, so wherever he finds it then he has a right to it." In my opinion, Islam is unique to other religions because Islam acknowledges the previous Scriptures (especially the Torah and the Gospel) along with the Quran. So, theoretically a muslim has a broader view than a Christian or a Jew, since a muslim can take the good things in the Bible while a Jew or a Christian won't take the good teachings in the Quran.
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debatedebate
Guest Group Joined: 15 March 2018 Status: Offline Points: 8 |
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The prophet has a tendency to forget verses, so what's the guarantee he managed to deliver all of Allah's words to all? 'A'isha reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by a man in the mosque. Thereupon he said: May Allah have mercy upon him; be reminded me of the verse which I had been made to forget
Reference : Sahih Muslim 788 b The Book of Prayer - Travellers In-book reference : Book 6, Hadith 266 USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 4, Hadith 1721
(.....but only men of understanding really heed.
(Quran 3:7) “.....Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Are those who know
equal with those who know not? But only men of understanding will pay heed.” (Qur’an
39:9) Allah says: 1. I have given clear revelation but 2.No one can understand some verses except me but 3. Some who can use their mind can understand them Let the forum member decide whether these makes sense or obviously full of contradiction.
"Nor does he speak (Qur'an) of (his own)
desire." "It is only a Revelation revealed." (Qur'an 53: 3, 4) These verses were actually Quran defending your prophet when the pagan Arabs were accusing him of making up verses and claiming it as revelation. Anyhow claims from the Quran that Allah is watching is no prove that the Quran is not corrupted/ well preserved. You mentioned about his Companion, well Abu Musa al-Ash'ari himself testified to the existence of surahs that are no longer in the Qur'an because they were forgotten. Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13). Reference : Sahih Muslim 1050 The Book of Zakat In-book reference : Book 12, Hadith 156 USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 5, Hadith 2286
Which will be broken or destroyed is the place where
His words were written, not the essence of His words. All that is in this world will be destroyed except
Allah. Quran 15:9 says Allah will be the guardian of the Quran.Where did you get the assertion that His written words may be destroyed but not the essence of the word? So the written Quran may not be well preserved? Need I say more...
My friend, the 5 pillars of Islam are from the Hadiths not the Quran, It shows how central are the hadiths are in the your faith. As for the validity of hadiths, Al-Bukhari & Muslim are sahih. As for the other hadiths, your Muslim scholars had removed all rejected hadiths from the books. Only accepted narrations are remain. Daif mean weak but not rejected. Anyway none of the sunnah that I have refered so far is Daif. Please show me if I did. Thanks |
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