|
I have a question |
Post Reply 
|
Page 123 6> |
| Author | ||
FearPlay 
Starter. 
Joined: 17 April 2018 Status: Offline Points: 1 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: I have a questionPosted: 19 April 2018 at 2:10am |
|
|
It is the continuation of the other monotheistic faiths and thus maintains consistency. It is the consistency that makes it compelling.
|
||
 |
||
|
Al Masihi
Senior Member 
Male Joined: 02 March 2018 Status: Offline Points: 141 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11 April 2018 at 6:10am |
|
|
The curse on Jeconiah (more commonly known as Jehoiachin) in Jeremiah 22:30 says that, due to his unfaithfulness, none of his children would prosper or sit on the throne of David. Jeremiah 36:30 is even more specific in saying the curse fell “on him and his children and his attendants. In fact, this is what happened. When Jehoiachin was taken by Nebuchadnezzar, his uncle Zedekiah was made king. When Zedekiah rebelled, he was killed by the Babylonians. Zedekiah was the last of the royal line to rule in Jerusalem. So, the prophecy was fulfilled. None of Jehoiachin’s children became king of Judah,and neither did his attendants. The prophecy says nothing of his great grandchildren of those who came later.
Even if we were to take the prophecy to apply to later generations, which is not the most reasonable interpretation, Jesus never took a throne or ruled in Judah. His kingdom is not of this world. However, there is no indication that the prophecy was about the distant future in any case. |
||
|
||
|
ovibos
Newbie
Joined: 14 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 26 March 2018 at 1:22am |
|
Nowhere in the Bible states that Mary is from the family of David. Luke 3:23 simply states that people thought that Jesus is the son of Joseph (what people think is not necessarily true). Unlike the Gospels, the Quran always calls Jesus as "the son of Mary", not "the son of Joseph" It's the genealogy of Mary that matters, not Joseph.
There's a problem if you said that Jesus is a descendant of David by adoption through Joseph. According to Matthew 1, Jesus is the descendant of David through Joseph ... through Jeconiah. According to Jeremiah 22:28-30, Jeconiah is childless and none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David and ruling in Judah. Therefore, the Messiah must be NOT from the lineage of Jeconiah. ====================================================== If you study the Dead Sea Scrolls, you might be familiar with the Testimonia (4Q175). In the Testimonia or Messianic Anthology, there are three verses about three different figures, that is: 1. The Prophet (Deut 18:18-19), 2. The Messiah of David (Numbers 24:15-17), 3. The Priestly Messiah (Deut 33:8-11) Of all those verses, which one is fit to Jesus? In my opinion, it's Deuteronomy 33:8-11 that fits to Jesus, especially in the phrase: "Who says of his father and mother, ‘I have not seen them’; Nor did he acknowledge his brothers, Or know his own children"So, in my opinion, Jesus must be from the tribe of Levi. FYI: When commented on the Diatessaron, Saint Ephrem also stated that Mary was from the House of Aaron. So, the Quran is not the only one that states that Mary is the descendant of Aaron. |
||
|
||
|
ovibos
Newbie
Joined: 14 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 March 2018 at 9:03pm |
|
in case the Testament of the Twelve Patriarch is not convincing enough, there's another "proof" that Levi has a higher position than Judah in the Book of Jubilee Chapter 31: In the Book of Jubilee, Isaac gave blessings to two of Jacob's sons, that is Levi and Judah. Isaac blessed Levi first by his right hand, and then he blessed Judah by his left hand. It reminds me how Jacob blessed Ephraim and Manasseh, which we know that Ephraim became greater than Mannaseh.
|
||
|
||
|
DavidC
Senior Member 
Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 March 2018 at 5:17am |
|
|
I have not read the testament of the twelve patriarchs. I will need to get back with you on that.
|
||
|
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
|
||
|
||
|
Al Masihi
Senior Member
Male Joined: 02 March 2018 Status: Offline Points: 141 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 March 2018 at 12:46am |
|
|
Seventeen verses in the New Testament describe Jesus as the “son of David.” But the question arises, how could Jesus be the son of David if David lived approximately 1,000 years before Jesus? The answer is that Christ (the Messiah) was the fulfillment of the prophecy of the seed of David (2 Samuel 7:12–16). Jesus is the promised Messiah, which means He had to be of the lineage of David. Matthew 1 gives the genealogical proof that Jesus, in His humanity, was a direct descendant of Abraham and David through Joseph, Jesus’ legal father. The genealogy in Luke 3 traces Jesus’ lineage through His mother, Mary. Jesus is a descendant of David by adoption through Joseph and by blood through Mary. “As to his earthly life [Christ Jesus] was a descendant of David” (Romans 1:3).
Primarily, the title “Son of David” is more than a statement of physical genealogy. It is a Messianic title. When people referred to Jesus as the Son of David, they meant that He was the long-awaited Deliverer, the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies. Jesus was addressed as “Lord, thou son of David” several times by people who, by faith, were seeking mercy or healing. The woman whose daughter was being tormented by a demon (Matthew 15:22) and the two blind men by the wayside (Matthew 20:30) all cried out to the Son of David for help. The titles of honor they gave Him declared their faith in Him. Calling Him “Lord” expressed their sense of His deity, dominion, and power, and calling Him “Son of David,” expressed their faith that He was the Messiah. The Pharisees understood exactly what the people meant when they called Jesus “Son of David.” But, unlike those who cried out in faith, the Pharisees were so blinded by their own pride that they couldn’t see what the blind beggars could see—that here was the Messiah they had supposedly been waiting for all their lives. They hated Jesus because He wouldn’t give them the honor they thought they deserved, so when they heard the people hailing Jesus as the Savior, they became enraged (Matthew 21:15) and plotted to destroy Him (Luke 19:47). Jesus further confounded the scribes and Pharisees by asking them to explain the meaning of this very title: how could it be that the Messiah is the son of David when David himself refers to Him as “my Lord” (Mark 12:35–37; cf. Psalm 110:1)? The teachers of the Law couldn’t answer the question. Jesus thereby exposed the Jewish leaders’ ineptitude as teachers and their ignorance of what the Old Testament taught as to the true nature of the Messiah, further alienating them from Him. Jesus’ point in asking the question of Mark 12:35 was that the Messiah is more than the physical son of David. If He is David’s Lord, He must be greater than David. As Jesus says in Revelation 22:16, “I am the Root and the Offspring of David.” That is, He is both the Creator of David and the Descendant of David. Only the Son of God made flesh could say that. |
||
|
||
|
Al Masihi
Senior Member
Male Joined: 02 March 2018 Status: Offline Points: 141 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 March 2018 at 12:44am |
|
|
Many verses say Jesus was a son of David and I find it strange Muslims can't agree on a single interpretation of that one verse some say that she is the literal descendant of Aaron yet others say it is sister in faith while others actually think she's related as in this Surah we find Mary, the mother of Jesus, is also called "daughter of Imran" in sura 66:
And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and was of the obedient. Qur'an 66:12 Imran is an Arabic form of the name Amram. Amram was the father of Moses, Aaron and Miriam. So the Qur'an mentions Mary in the same family relationship as Miriam. Since Ibn Kathir put two possible solutions for this problem, he was probably not sure about any of them. Otherwise he would put just one (either she is a descendant "sister" of Aaron or she had an actual brother coincidentally called Aaron). The Qur'an literally says "sister (�£ُخْتَ) of Aaron" and people understood the verse to literally mean "sister of Aaron". Only when Muhammad came to know that it was wrong, the meaning changed into "a descendant of Aaron". In the Christian sources she is said to be from the family of David, so why is the Qur'an saying she is from the family of Aaron? Some apologists point out that in Luke 1:5, Elizabeth is said to be a descendant of Aaron and in Luke 1:36 Mary is said to be a cousin or relative of Mary. But just because Mary is a cousin or somehow related to Elizabeth, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are both descendants of Aaron. If Mary was known to be a descendant of Aaron, then why the Arab Christians (and Aisha and Mughira b. Shu'ba) from Muhammad's time didn't know about it? This also doesn't explain why in the 3rd sura she is described as an actual daughter of Amram. Muhammad's companions and even Aisha, all understood the Qur'an to mean she is literally the sister of Aaron. Tafsir Ibn Kathir in its non-abridged Arabic version says this: وَقَالَ اِبْن جَرِير حَدَّثَنِي يَعْقُوب حَدَّثَنَا اِبْن عُلَيَّة عَنْ سَعِيد بْن �£َبِي صَدَقَة عَنْ مُحَمَّد بْن سِيرِينَ قَالَ �£ُنْبِئْت �£َنَّ كَعْبًا قَالَ إِنَّ قَوْله : " يَا �£ُخْت هَارُون " لَيْسَ بِهَارُون �£َخِي مُوسَى قَالَ فَقَالَتْ لَهُ عَائِشَة كَذَبْت قَالَ يَا �£ُمّ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِنْ كَانَ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَهُ فَهُوَ �£َعْلَم وَ�£َخْبَر وَإِلَّا فَإِنِّي �£َجِد بَيْنهمَا سِتّمِائَةِ سَنَة قَالَ فَسَكَتَتْ وَفِي هَذَا التَّارِيخ نَظَر It was narrated from Ibn Jarir, narrated from Yaqub, narrated from Ibn U’laya, narrated from Sa’id Ibn Abi Sadaqa, narrated from Muhammad Ibn Sireen who stated that he was told that Ka’b said the verse that reads, "O sister of Harun (Aaron)!" (of Sura 19:28) does not refer to Aaron the brother of Moses. Aisha replied to Ka’b, "You have lied." Ka’b responded, "O Mother of the believers! If the prophet, may Allah’s prayers be upon him, has said it, and he is more knowledgeable, then this is what he related. Besides, I find the difference in time between them (Jesus and Moses) to be 600 years." He said that she remained silent. Tafsir Ibn Kathir (non-abridged) on 19:28 [2] |
||
|
||
|
ovibos
Newbie
Joined: 14 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 March 2018 at 8:18pm |
|
If you expect a prophet that 100% identical to Moses, you will not find such person in history ever. Deuteronomy states: "But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, 11 in all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt, before Pharaoh, before all his servants, and in all his land, 12 and by all that mighty power and all the great terror which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel." It means that all miracles performed in the land of Egypt won't happen again for the second time. So, please don't expect a prophet who performs miracles like Moses did. The Jews reject Jesus because they think Jesus didn't fulfill 100% the requirements of a Messiah or the signs of the Prophet. It is stated in the Quran: Indeed, We gave Moses the Book and sent after him successive messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the holy spirit. Why is it that every time a messenger comes to you ˹Israelites˺ with something you do not like, you become arrogant, rejecting some and killing others? (Q 2:87)In other words, Jesus was rejected by the Jews because Jesus did NOT perfectly match the figure of the Messiah and/or the Prophet that the Jews wanted. However, you have to consider this: What is the best thing that Moses brought to the Israelites? Is it his staff? Is it the plagues? Is it because Moses split the Sea? NO! In my opinion the best thing that Moses gave to the Israelites is the LAW, or the Book of Moses, that evolved to what we know today as the Torah. It is the LAW that brought the Israelites from darkness into the light. Likewise, the greatest "miracle" of Muhammad is the Quran. It is the Quran that brought the Arabs from darkness into the light. It is the Quran that changed the characters of the Arabs drastically It is the Quran that changed the Arabs from lawlessness to be civilized people. It is the Quran that inspired the Muslims centuries after the death of prophet Muhammad, that Muslims in those days once became one of the most civilized nations in the world. The Quran and the Torah have many similarities. Both books talk about the One True God. Both books state that there is no god except Him. Both books instruct how to behave, the do's and the don'ts, distinguish between lawful and unlawful, etc. In fact, the Quran states that there is no book better than those two (the Quran and the Book of Moses) (Q 28:49) Now take a closer look on these verses: I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18) All suras in the Quran begin with: in the Name of God. (Well, all except one actually) In fact, the first verse revealed to prophet Muhammad is: "Recite in the Name of your Lord who created" (Q 96:1) You also can see some other similarities of Moses and Muhammad as follows:
|
||
|
||
|
Post Reply
|
Page 123 6> |
Tweet
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
Al Masihi wrote: