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Logical argument about God's Oneness

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airmano View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 8:24am
Quote Airmano:
Is there anything I can do which Allah has not programmed in advance  ?

Miaw:
If by 'programmed' you mean 'Known' then the answer is 'No'.
Thanks for your quick (and short) reply.

It does not fully cover my question though. By "programmed" I meant the following:
If I understand your logic correctly God made everything, thus (in the end) also me and you.
For the moment I leave considerations whether he only created the universe and the laws of nature at the beginning [ 1) without intervening anymore] or 2) whether he still actively intervenes, aside.

For the sake of simplicity I assume now 1) to be the case [using 2) would not fundamentally change my logic though] 

Since Allah is supposed to be almighty and all-knowledgeable he would, at -or even before his creation of our universe- be able to extrapolate in a deterministic way how every atom and even more you and I would evolve during our life.

Furthermore, he would have actively -by the act of creating the universe the way he did - have "configured" (or "programmed") the starting conditions of our Universe such that  you and I (amongst other things like galaxies and black holes) would unavoidably come into existence and evolve exactly the way we did.  He would have equally "programmed" (in the sense as I described above) every thought we had, have and will have.

Can you agree on that ?


Airmano

The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Tim the plumber View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2018 at 3:07am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Quote Airmano:
Is there anything I can do which Allah has not programmed in advance  ?

Miaw:
If by 'programmed' you mean 'Known' then the answer is 'No'.
Thanks for your quick (and short) reply.

It does not fully cover my question though. By "programmed" I meant the following:
If I understand your logic correctly God made everything, thus (in the end) also me and you.
For the moment I leave considerations whether he only created the universe and the laws of nature at the beginning [ 1) without intervening anymore] or 2) whether he still actively intervenes, aside.

For the sake of simplicity I assume now 1) to be the case [using 2) would not fundamentally change my logic though] 

Since Allah is supposed to be almighty and all-knowledgeable he would, at -or even before his creation of our universe- be able to extrapolate in a deterministic way how every atom and even more you and I would evolve during our life.

Furthermore, he would have actively -by the act of creating the universe the way he did - have "configured" (or "programmed") the starting conditions of our Universe such that  you and I (amongst other things like galaxies and black holes) would unavoidably come into existence and evolve exactly the way we did.  He would have equally "programmed" (in the sense as I described above) every thought we had, have and will have.

Can you agree on that ?


Airmano



Just to inject the mathematical or scientific thinking on this;

Just because you know the start position ( of a deterministic system) and the rules determining the way a system opperates does not necessarily mean that you know what it will do.

This is more ture for more complex systems. Although this is very true for systems of not all that much compexity.

The more systems you have interacting with one another the many times more it is true. Very very quickly the whole thing is unpredictable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0GOooE_79A

So just because the start conditions were set by God (going with flow of this) does not mean that everything is set. Free will is still possible within such a deterministic system.

And of course we are trying to use a legalistic or scientific interpretation to poetry. It might be back to praying to your cat as far as usefulness is concearned.
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airmano View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2018 at 11:36am
@Tim
Quote The more systems you have interacting with one another the many times more it is true. Very very quickly the whole thing is unpredictable.
Perfectly true for humans, but here we face the claim of an all-knowledgeable being, and this is where (and why) the trouble starts.
Not the same.


@Miaw:
Any news on this subject ?


Airmano
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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MIAW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2018 at 6:10am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

...
Furthermore, he would have actively -by the act of creating the universe the way he did - have "configured" (or "programmed") the starting conditions of our Universe such that  you and I (amongst other things like galaxies and black holes) would unavoidably come into existence and evolve exactly the way we did.  He would have equally "programmed" (in the sense as I described above) every thought we had, have and will have.

Can you agree on that ?

Can I agree on that ? Answer: No

God SWT Has Known about every thought we had, have or will have: YES
God SWT Has 'programmed' every thought we had, have or will have: NO

Does everything in the Universe happen with God's Knowledge and Will? YES
Does that mean that God Forces us or Makes us (humans) do things (e.g. actions and choices)? NO

You would like to eliminate the concept of free will and choice given to us by God... you want to put us (humans) in the same category as galaxies and black holes... but the fact of the matter is that: God Has given us free will (which He Did Not Give galaxies, black holes and objects), and we will be accountable for our choices. Please go back to my previous post, as we are going round in circles.

I think you (along with all the 'free-astray-no limits-thinkers' in human history) need to be discussing this with a 'philosophy enthusiast' who will be very happy to indulge until long after the cows come home. As for me, I would like to wrap this up; as I see (and more importantly: believe in...) this concept very clearly, but obviously you don't.

Your other posts: I'm still looking for some free time. Don't go anywhere!




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Tim the plumber View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2018 at 12:01am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Tim
Quote The more systems you have interacting with one another the many times more it is true. Very very quickly the whole thing is unpredictable.
Perfectly true for humans, but here we face the claim of an all-knowledgeable being, and this is where (and why) the trouble starts.
Not the same.


@Miaw:
Any news on this subject ?


Airmano


Disappointingly no. Although a better computer would allow the waether men to predict the weather better the most perfect computer theoretically possible will not allow them to predict the British weather more than 4 weeks in advance. The weather is simply too complex for any predictive mechanism to work no matter how good at doing all the maths it is.

So it is technically possible for an all knowing entity with all the computer thinking power possible to be unable to predict the weather more than a few weeks in advance.

Weather is very simple compared to human though. Well sometimes, human thought can often be very predictable....
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airmano View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2018 at 1:44am
@Tim
Quote The weather is simply too complex for any predictive mechanism to work no matter how good at doing all the maths it is.

How would you define "all-knowledgeable" ?

Airmano
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lunarious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2018 at 2:12am
It is not about just Allah being all-knowing, but also able/mighty. He doesn't need to prove anything to you though he is all-merciful. It is a matter of survival of the strongest, and Allah is not able to predict many things (true), however where there are 'walls', guided by wisdom he can break through them. However the good news is that he doesn't break any wall he sees, because he is wise. He is all-knowing because the thinking power, the computers are the Prophets and thei've surrendered their will to Allah. The True Truth. And the True Truth knows everything. Guided by wisdom we can connect to Allah. Prayer in arabic means connection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Tim
Quote The weather is simply too complex for any predictive mechanism to work no matter how good at doing all the maths it is.

How would you define "all-knowledgeable" ?

Airmano


I'm not sure. But my point is that even if all the positions of all the atoms in the air and all the atoms of all the other parts of the universe and their motion is know to an all powerful mind then predicting the weather 2 months in advance with accuracy is beyond the capacity for mathamatics. Just how it is.

Thus you can have the situation of something being all-knowing and not be able to predict with absolute accuracy the furture.

Obviously there are lots of things you can predict about the weather in 2 months with decent accuracy and know that it will generally follow the pattern of weather in August etc. Just not the detail.
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