IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Logical argument about God's Oneness
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Logical argument about God's Oneness

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
Author
Message
Tim the plumber View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 September 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 871
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 June 2017 at 9:48am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Tim the plumber
Quote I recon that trying to catch out God in legalistic arguments is about as useful as praying to your cat.
That's a bit too easy.
I do not rule out the possible existence of a god and repeated already many times I am agnostic not atheistic.
I do however rule out that an omnipotent/all-knowledgable god can coexist with the concept of free will.

If you don't agree try to show where the flaw in my reasoning lies.


Airmano


My take on this is that it is like asking a 5th century goat hearder to understand and then explain to others how the futures trading markets in oil should work. Or the air traffic control regulations.

If there is an all powerful God (obviously I see no evidence of this but...) then who are we to be able to make any sort of statements about his abilities or motivations beyond what is obvious?

Disapearing up your own rear end in fancy language is not the way to get to grips with how the climate system works. Why would you expect that approach to work when trying to work out the nature of the universe?

Back to Top
whosebob View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 08 April 2013
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whosebob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2017 at 9:00am

Chapter Name:An-Nisa Verse No:79
Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself.

This is the best answer for you. Life is a test, we have freewill. God wants the best for us but it through the evil in ourselves that bad things happen to us.

Their is also the spiritual realm in Islam. It states than in the Quran before all mankind was sent to earth, we were all gathered before Allah. We all submitted to Allah's oneness whether it was willingly or unwillingly. No one knows exactly what happen from there but some scholar say that one builds affinities their which directly affect our lives on Earth and your destiny.

Life is also a test. It has good times and bad times. Sometimes hardship is put in our path to help us get closer to Allah. Most times we put ourselves into a bad situation and God still helps us, This is why he is Almighty and Merciful.

Freewill is important. It is a gift from God. No creature other than humans have the power to reason like we do. So use it properly and see logic, God willing.

Back to Top
whosebob View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 08 April 2013
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whosebob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 October 2017 at 2:03pm
bump
Back to Top
Tim the plumber View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 September 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 871
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2018 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Tim the plumber
Quote I recon that trying to catch out God in legalistic arguments is about as useful as praying to your cat.
That's a bit too easy.
I do not rule out the possible existence of a god and repeated already many times I am agnostic not atheistic.
I do however rule out that an omnipotent/all-knowledgable god can coexist with the concept of free will.

If you don't agree try to show where the flaw in my reasoning lies.


Airmano


Well, yeah, but I am the wrong person to ask as my position is that any sort of God idea is incompatable with actually looking at the real world and seeing it as it is rather than how you want it to be.
Back to Top
airmano View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 March 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 864
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 4:39am
@Tim
Quote Well, yeah, but I am the wrong person to ask as my position is that any sort of God idea is incompatable with actually looking at the real world and seeing it as it is rather than how you want it to be.
I guess your point is by and large correct (although I would not fully subscribe to it), but I can not see the link to my claim that an almighty God is incompatible with [a] free will.


Airmano
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
Back to Top
MIAW View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 January 2018
Status: Offline
Points: 184
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 5:52am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

...my claim that an almighty God is incompatible with [a] free will.

@ airmano,

You really seem to have an issue with the concept of 'free will'.

In order to grasp the concept of 'free will' one must believe in two things: 

1 – That Allaah, may He be exalted, is the Creator of all things, and nothing happens in the universe except by His will. He knows what is to come and He decreed all of that and wrote it in a Book fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth, as is stated in a saheeh report from our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He is Just and does not wrong anyone in the slightest, because He is independent of His creation and has no need of them. He is Kind and Gracious to them constantly, so how could He wrong them?  

This principle is indicated by a great deal of evidence in the Qur’aan and Sunnah, such as the verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainments of all things before their creation as written in the Book of Decrees ___ Al‑Lawh Al‑Mahfooz)”

[al-Qamar 54:49] 

“No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but it is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al‑Lawh Al‑Mahfooz) before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allaah”

[al-Hadeed 57:22]. 

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah decided the decrees of creation fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth. He said: And His Throne is above the water.” Narrated by Muslim (2653). 

2 – Man has free will and choice by means of which he does some things and refrains from others, and he believes or disbelieves, and he obeys or disobeys, for which he will be brought to account and rewarded or punished, although Allaah knows what he will do, what he will choose and what his ultimate destiny will be. But Allaah does not compel him to do evil, or to choose kufr, rather He clearly shows him the path and He has sent Messengers and revealed Books, and shown him the right way. Whoever goes astray does so to his own loss,. 

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“And say: ‘The truth is from your Lord.’ Then whosoever wills, let him believe; and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve”

[al-Kahf 18:29] 

“Verily, We showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful”

[al-Insaan 76:3]  

7. “So whosoever does good equal to the weight of an atom (or a small ant) shall see it.

8. And whosoever does evil equal to the weight of an atom (or a small ant) shall see it”

[al-Zalzalah 99:7,8] 

“And it will be cried out to them: ‘This is the Paradise which you have inherited for what you used to do’”

[al-A’raaf 7:43] 

“so taste you the abiding torment for what you used to do”

[al-Sajdah 32:14] 

Allaah tells us that man believes and does righteous deeds by his own choice and free will, then he enters Paradise, or he disbelieves and does evil deeds by his own choice and free will, then he enters Hell. 

Every person knows in his own heart and by looking at those around him, that our deeds – good and evil, obedient and sinful – are done by our own choice, and we do not feel that there is any force compelling us to do them. You can curse, swear, lie and backbite, just as you can praise Allaah, glorify Him, pray for forgiveness, speak the truth and give sincere advice. You can walk to places of idle entertainment, falsehood and evil, just as you can walk to the mosques or places of goodness and obedience. A man can strike with his hand, steal, speak falsehood and betray, or he can help the needy, do good and do favours with his hands. Everyone does some of these deeds and he does not feel that he is compelled or forced, rather he does them by his own free will and then he will be called to account for them; if they were good, then the consequences will be good, and if they were bad then the consequences will be bad. 

What Allaah has decreed is something that man cannot know and he cannot base his deeds on it or use it as an excuse. It is also not valid for him to object to his Lord by questioning why He has caused someone to be among the doomed or the blessed.  Allaah has not wronged the one who is doomed, rather He gave him time and ability and freedom of choice, and He sent to him Messengers and revealed Books to them, and He reminded him and warned him with all kinds of reminders, such as calamities and tests, so that he would repent to Him and turn to Him. If he chose the path of misguidance, and followed the way of criminals, he only harmed himself, and he is the one who has caused his own doom, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

9. “Indeed he succeeds who purifies his ownself (i.e. obeys and performs all that Allaah ordered, by following the true Faith of Islamic Monotheism and by doing righteous good deeds).

10. And indeed he fails who corrupts his ownself (i.e. disobeys what Allaah has ordered by rejecting the true Faith of Islamic Monotheism or by following polytheism, or by doing every kind of evil wicked deeds)”

[al-Shams 91:9, 10] 


“Allaah wronged them not, but they wronged themselves”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:117] 


“Has not the story reached them of those before them? — The people of Nooh (Noah), ‘Aad, and Thamood, the people of Ibraaheem (Abraham), the dwellers of Madyan (Midian) and the cities overthrown [i.e. the people to whom Loot (Lot) preached]; to them came their Messengers with clear proofs. So it was not Allaah Who wronged them, but they used to wrong themselves”

[al-Tawbah 9:70] 

To sum up: the belief that Allaah is the Creator Who has decreed all things and has distinguished those who are blessed from those who are doomed, does not mean that Allaah forces His slaves to obey or disobey. Rather He has given them the ability to choose and free will, which is what they act upon, and for which they will be brought to account. Your Lord does not wrong His slaves.






Back to Top
airmano View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 March 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 864
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 2:08pm
@ Miaw

Instead of throwing unrelated Surahs onto me, can you answer two questions:

A) Is there anything I can do which Allah has not programmed in advance  ?
B) If 'yes': What ?


Airmano

Ps: Try to be short and if you cite Quran surahs, express your interpretation of the(ir) relevance, please.
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
Back to Top
MIAW View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 January 2018
Status: Offline
Points: 184
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 3:27am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@ Miaw

Instead of throwing unrelated Surahs onto me, can you answer two questions:

A) Is there anything I can do which Allah has not programmed in advance  ?
B) If 'yes': What ?


Airmano

Ps: Try to be short and if you cite Quran surahs, express your interpretation of the(ir) relevance, please.


A) If by 'programmed' you mean 'Known' then the answer is 'No'. This has been covered in the previous post.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.