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Melco View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Islam true?
    Posted: 20 February 2006 at 8:41am
I strongly believe that Islam isn't true for the following reasons (perhaps those who believe it is true can persuade me otherwise):

1) The "Prophet" contradicts many of the teachings of earlier prophets, eg the teaching of monogamy. A genuine prophet, because he speaks on behalf of God can develop but not contradict an earlier prophet's words. Why? Because God cannot change his mind or He is imperfect and not omniscient (all knowing). We remember, that Muhammad claimed that God changed his mind on which direction to pray to three times (Kabaa, Jerusalem, then the Kabaa again). Strange that.

2) It seems to focus on a God who is "all merciful", but it's followers are often unmerciful, eg Muhammad led a massacre in retaliation. Surely, Jesus teaching of turning the other cheek is more advanced, therefore, Muhammad is making a regressive change to an earlier prophet's teachings.

3) I don't buy the line that Jesus' true teaching was lost and the Gospel is in error. The Gospel was cross-checked by hundreds of witnesses, while the Qu'ran is dependent entirely on the religious experience of one man.

4) I have had many (what I consider) genuine religious experiences, which confirmed for me the truth of the Catholic faith. These contradict Muhammad's claims.

5) Many of the Qu'ran's lines look like paraphrases of the Bible's verses, which is immediately suspicious. The Qu'ran is an amalgamation of Judaic, Christian and Arabic Polytheistic and cultural ideas, therefore, it doesn't appear to spring from a pure source, a Divine Mind, ie God. There are too many references to theological disputes of the day to convince me otherwise than it all came from the mind of Muhammad, however poetic the words might have been. 

6) Islam don't seem to be open to honest critique in search of the truth for fear of being less than obedient, but in order for a religion to be rational, this must be allowed. Religious beliefs can't be self-contradictory.

7) Moses forbade making idols or gods out of people, but Muhammad is  being treated like this, as he is the only one, apart from God that one cannot make an image of. Last time I looked, Muslims had photos on their passports, this a complete contradiction.

8) There is no uniform belief system or singular authority in Islam. If it came from one God, there should be.

9) Why isn't Love promoted more highly in Islam? Why does justice or anger always get greater emphasis?

10) Why is there is still little prosperity in Muslim countries?


Many of these ideas have been said before (and there are many more I might mention), but how do Muslims respond in a rational way to these?


Edited by Melco
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Melco View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2006 at 9:15am
Look forward to hearing convincing replies...
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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2006 at 9:16am

1) The "Prophet" contradicts many of the teachings of earlier prophets, eg the teaching of monogamy. A genuine prophet, because he speaks on behalf of God can develop but not contradict an earlier prophet's words. Why? Because God cannot change his mind or He is imperfect and not omniscient (all knowing). We remember, that Muhammad claimed that God changed his mind on which direction to pray to three times (Kabaa, Jerusalem, then the Kabaa again). Strange that.

Monogamy wasn't taught by earlier Prophets.  Jacob had Racheal and Leah, Abraham had Sarah and Hagar, both King David and King Solomon has mulitple wives and concubines.  Polygamy was practiced by the jews for centuries after Christ, even some Christians practiced polygamy in the early church. 

Now, I'm not Muslim.  I just wanted to point out the first contradiction you posted was not a contradiction.  Sorry.  And for Catholicism, there is alot taught by the Catholic Church that is their own creation.  Priestly celebacy, etc are evolutions in Christianity, not founded in scriptural evidence.

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Melco View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2006 at 9:26am
Once mongamy was accepted a moral norm as it was in Jesus' day, then it would be a contradiction to regress to an earlier stage of development. I'm aware of polygamy in earlier times.

You must never have read Matthew's Gospel or St. Paul's letters, which give many references to priestly celebacy, eg being a eunach for the kingdom. (These are merely disciplines which can be changed for differing circumstances, rather than moral norms.)

You still haven't given a sufficient reason for "Allah" changing his mind...as Muhammad claims

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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2006 at 9:44am

I'm not Muslim, I'll leave that to the Muslims.  But, I would like you to post the references in your bible to the priestly celebacy.

Since, Jesus, John and the Apostles were Jews and Rabbis marry.  Also, the Popes and priests of the early Catholic Church married, OH and the EASTERN ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS, who are older than the Roman Papacy have married priests and unmarried priests?

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Servetus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2006 at 10:00am

Welcome, Melco:

The "Prophet" contradicts many of the teachings of earlier prophets, eg the teaching of monogamy. A genuine prophet, because he speaks on behalf of God can develop but not contradict an earlier prophet's words. Why? Because God cannot change his mind or He is imperfect and not omniscient (all knowing). We remember, that Muhammad claimed that God changed his mind on which direction to pray to three times (Kabaa, Jerusalem, then the Kabaa again). Strange that.

Not to seem disrespectful, but, when it comes to some matters religious, what isn't strange?

I'm not a Muslim either, but, just taking your first point, what are at least parts of the the Sermon on the Mount if not, I won't say a contradiction, but an abnegation of the Mosaic (from Moses) laws which preceded it?  Jesus, in that sermon, said: "Ye have heard it said [by Moses] an "eye for an eye" ... but I say unto you [this, opposite] ..."  Also, it was under the then-existing Mosaic Law that the woman (naturally) taken in adultery was brought to be stoned (punishment as per Moses).  Jesus is said to have interrupted that and was thus, as I see it, probably sealing his fate (with the Sanhedrin) in the process.  I suppose, in that unique and characteristically paradoxical Christian sense, this could be considered a mere "development" rather than a "contradiction," but I notice that that same rather flexible allowance for paradox is not usually extended to Islam.

At any rate, these are a couple of cases in point and I state, at the outset, and in anticipation, that I am disinclined to engage in what seem at times endless discussions, or prevarications, concerning the differences between the Schools of Hillel and Shammai or any of those other ill-defined "Jewish fables" that St. Paul warns against somewhere and early on in the book of Titus.

How's this for a punchy opener on my part?  Now, with this salvo, I'm back to discussing that other strange thing: politics!

Welcome, again, and I hope that your time here proves rewarding.

Best regards,

Servetus

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2006 at 11:32am

Very logical and to the point, bro servetus. Hitting a bull eye is one thing that I always admire.

I thought, bro Melco, your ignorance about Islam, reflected through your questions, could be attributed to a general trend among non-Muslims. However, I am surprised to know when you talk about your own, with the same level of ignorance. This is indeed very strange.

Originally posted by Melco Melco wrote:

3) I don't buy the line that Jesus' true teaching was lost and the Gospel is in error. The Gospel was cross-checked by hundreds of witnesses, while the Qu'ran is dependent entirely on the religious experience of one man.
 

Which gospel are you talking about, bro Melco? Gospel according to Jesus or according to someone else? Also, kindly provide your references for those “hundreds of witnesses” who cross-checked the gospel. This gospel, thta you claim to be cross-checked, was it in English, Greek, Latin or was it in Aramaic? Merely closing the eyes can’t hide the facts.  

 



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Melco View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2006 at 12:08pm
Very good everybody. Perhaps, we stop calling each other ignorant, none of us here know the full truth. Servetus, you understand what I mean by "contradiction" and "development". There is such a thing as an organic development, which I consider Islam not to be, but a mishmash and in many instances a regression.

Angela regarding:
Since, Jesus, John and the Apostles were Jews and Rabbis marry.
(Inductive  logic, unreliable)
 Also, the Popes and priests of the early Catholic Church married, OH and the EASTERN ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS, who are older than the Roman Papacy have married priests and unmarried priests?

(Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions go right back together, 1054AD was the split. Paul and Peter went to Rome, where the Roman tradition began. Practice and ideals were often in conflict, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak, etc. )

AhmadJoyia, biblical scholars agree that the written texts followed and were secondary to the oral transmission of witnesses, who together with the apostles were witnesses to various parts of Jesus' story. Mark's Gospel was written in about 70ad, because many of the witnesses were being executed or growing old. There are many clues in the texts, which show that  these witnesses were drawn from, eg in Mark's Gospel it says that Simon of Cyrene was the father of Rufus, etc. (This was added as a reference to where the story came from and was included as these were known to the Christian community). One of St. Paul letters to the Corinthians dates from 50ad and already establishes that the Christian community was already taking shape without there being any written Gospels at that stage. There obviously had too be many witnesses to supply this early community with Jesus' sayings and miracle stories. Yes, there are 4 gospel accounts, each with different communities they are writing for and different goals.  My eyes are wide open, my friend, I have seen the Lord and he has called me 3 times, I am not groping entirely in the dark for answers.  Peace be with you!

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