Question about 22:27

TG12345 wrote: Yes, Abraham was told to call humanity to come for Haji, according to the verse. According to this same verse, God told Abraham that people will come to him, from every mountain pass, walking and on lean camels.

AhmadJoyia wrote: IMHO, prophesies are never understood in literal sense. Therefore, 'every mountain pass' may imply 'through difficult journeys' and 'walking and on lean camels' imply all types of transportation.

Prophecies are never understood in a literal sense? Really? Where did you get that from?
Was this prophecy not literal?

30:2-4

The Byzantines have been defeated

In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome.

Within three to nine years. To Allah belongs the command before and after. And that day the believers will rejoice


Also, how can it be that all of the classical tafsirs we examined take this prophecy literally? Were they all wrong, and it took until the 20th century for Muslims to see this was just allegedly a metaphor?

Let�s look at your interpretation.
You claim �every mountain pass� may mean �through difficult journeys�. Why could God have not written �through difficult journeys�?
You claim �walking and on lean camels� imply all types of transportation. So the verse states that people will be going to Mecca via all types of transportation?

By huskies? Elephants? Llamas? Boats? Even according to your interpretation, the verse is in trouble.
Please explain also how is it possible that no one until the 20th century figured out this was metaphoric, and how you know the verse says what you think it does, rather than what it clearly states and what they understood it to mean.

TG12345 wrote: God did not tell Abraham that once he leaves Mecca, people will stop doing Haji. In all likelihood, they continued coming.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Yea but whats the point?

The point is that the statement �they will come to you� applies to Abraham. God promised Abraham that humanity will come to him �from every distant mountain pass, on foot and on every lean camel�, according to what the verse says.
If the verse is true and God does not make false promises, people came to him from all regions of the world and either by walking or on lean camels.
They kept coming for Haji, but according to what the verse says, they did come to Abraham.

TG12345 wrote: However, at some point, according to the Quran, people from every distant region of the world did come to Abraham while he was in Mecca.

AhmadJoyia wrote: This is without any evidence. Can you show us where in Quran?

22:27

And proclaim to the people the Hajj [pilgrimage]; they will come to you on foot and on
every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass �
As we already saw, �the people� is a reference to humanity, and God told Abraham to proclaim Hai to them. God told Abraham that the people he called (humanity) will come to him �from every distant pass�.
If we want to assume �every distant pass� means what the text says, it would be a reference to every mountain pass in the globe, given that they are all �distant� from Mecca. The classical tafsirs confirm this, stating people will come �from every distant route� or �every remote land�.
Earlier you raised the possibility that �every distant mountain pass� was a reference to the mountains around Mecca. This would mean that people from all over the world crossed these passes to see Abraham.
Either way, the verse says that:
a)     Abraham was told to call humanity to the Haji
b)     God told Abraham that people will come to him (not Mecca, but him personally) from every distant mountain pass� which the classical tafsirs all seem to say is from �every land�, which would mean every part of the world. Such an understanding would make sense, since Abraham was after all told to call all of humanity for the Pilgrimage.

TG12345 wrote: That is what God told him would happen, as the verse clearly states.

AhmadJoyia wrote: What are you talking? Does not make sense at all. The verse is only talking in future tense and hence can't be limited by the reader of this verse at any point in time. This 'future tense' implies for all times to come.

Yet it says �they will come to you �
Who is the �you� a reference to, if not Abraham?

TG12345 wrote: Of course, we know this did not happen.

AhmadJoyia wrote: If you think it didn't happen till now, which of course is not correct, how do you presume that it would not happen any time in future? The prophesy can only be called as 'untrue' if and only if the condition of 'end of time' is reached and you or someone like you happen to live at that occasion to observe it and then claim as such.

The prophecy did not come to pass because Abraham is dead, and God promised him that humanity will come to him �walking and on lean camels�, �from every distant mountain pass�.
That did not happen during his lifetime. It isn�t even happening now.
The first reason is that there are large areas of the world where people are not Muslim, including some very mountainous areas.
The second is that no one or barely anyone walks or takes a camel to Mecca anymore, and when they did, it would be wrong to say that people came and did pilgrimage from all over the world.


Edited by TG12345 - 30 January 2016 at 3:02pm

AhmadJoyia wrote: Dear brother TG12345 thanks for wasting your time as well as of others by ignoring the basic understanding of Haj especially with respect to these verses. Haj is never about a person, Prophet Ibrahim, but about his sincerity of efforts to establish the house of God and through his sacrifice. How can you ignore this basic and the key word 'Haj' in this verse. People are visiting and shall continue to visit this house of God till the end of time. Hence fulfilling the prophesy.

Alaikum salaam my dear brother AhmadJoiya. If the Haji is not about a person but about what he did, and people are visiting not Abraham but the House of God, then 22:27 in which God tells Abraham that humanity will come to him �walking and on every lean camel, from every mountain pass� must be a promise that was foretold to occur within his lifetime. Thank you for proving my point.
Even if we assume that when Muslims go to Mecca today they in some way go to Abraham (although how they do it if he isn't buried there and the purpose of the Haji is to go to God's house not see Abraham I have no idea), the prophecy is not fulfilled since very few people go to Haji anymore by camel or foot, and they do not come from every mountain pass, either in Saudi Arabia or the world.


Edited by TG12345 - 03 February 2016 at 4:32am

AhmadJoyia wrote: Dear brother TG12345 thanks for wasting your time as well as of others by ignoring the basic understanding of Haj especially with respect to these verses. Haj is never about a person, Prophet Ibrahim, but about his sincerity of efforts to establish the house of God and through his sacrifice. How can you ignore this basic and the key word 'Haj' in this verse. People are visiting and shall continue to visit this house of God till the end of time. Hence fulfilling the prophesy.

TG12345 wrote: Alaikum salaam my dear brother AhmadJoiya. If the Haji is not about a person but about what he did, and people are visiting not Abraham but the House of God, then 22:27 in which God tells Abraham that humanity will come to him �walking and on every lean camel, from every mountain pass� must be a promise that was foretold to occur within his lifetime. Thank you for proving my point.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Your point looks only half of the verse ignoring what goes into the other half. One can only call it half logic, if it is anything meaningful.

I addressed the whole verse. Here it is again:

And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj ).


Part one of the verse states that Abraham is told to proclaim to mankind the Haji.
Part two states that people will come to him on foot and on every lean camel, from every distant mountain pass.

What is even more interesting is that I learned from a Muslim friend that the verse does not actually say �every lean camel� but instead �every lean mounted�.
The Dr. Ghali translation states:
And announce to mankind the Pilgrimage; they shall come up (hurriedly) to you on foot and upon every slender (conveyance); they shall definitely come up from every deep ravine.
http://quran.com/22/27-37
The video below actually explains this, start watching from 54:37 if you want to skip ahead.
http://tafsir.io/22/27
The verse says not that people will go to Haji on ever lean camel, but on every lean animal.
This shows yet another error in the verse, and evidence that the Quran�s author was not God. How could he have said that people will do pilgrimage on every animal?
Even if we assume that instead of every animal it says �every mounted animal�, did the Quran�s author not know that there are animals used for transport in many different parts of the world that would never set foot in Saudi Arabia, or in most likelihood survive the climate there if they did?
Sure, horses and camels and donkeys and maybe even elephants may have been used to come to Mecca.
What about llamas? Alpacas? Water buffalo? Yaks?
The speaker tries to broaden the meaning, saying that �every lean animal� would also include cars. If �every lean animal� means every form of transport, or even every form of land transport, we would be even in more trouble, since to the list of means of transportation that people cannot go to Haji would increase also to huskies and reindeer.

Finally, it is fascinating how you accuse me of ignoring things. In many of your responses to me you only address certain points, while I address everything you say.

TG12345 wrote: Even if we assume that when Muslims go to Mecca today they in some way go to Abraham (although how they do it if he isn't buried there and the purpose of the Haji is to go to God's house not see Abraham I have no idea), the prophecy is not fulfilled since very few people go to Haji anymore by camel or foot, and they do not come from every mountain pass, either in Saudi Arabia or the world.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Thanks bro TG12345 for your enlightened understanding and your exotic 'Do Loop' logic. Best of Luck. I simply just don't want to repeat my explanation. Probably, you may like to consult Bro Ron Webb to help you out understand my explanation. best regards.

No problem, my friend. It was nice discussing with you. I was only reading what the verse says. You can call it �Do Loop logic� or whatever you want, but it states what it states.
I only �consulted� Ron Webb because I truly did not understand your explanation and you refused to clarify when I asked you. He clarified by giving an example I can more clearly understand, and so I thanked him.

TG12345 wrote: ....I addressed the whole verse. Here it is again: And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj )....

AhmadJoyia wrote: Pasting whole verse is just one thing, but making understanding with full verse is something you have yet to make.

I did that already. Not only have I done that, but I also showed the understanding of the tafsir writers.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Secondly, the pilgramage is all as per the rituals set forth by Prophet Ibrahim and this shall continue till end of times.

This is true.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Thus all your allegations; such as: 1) all people, if implying everyone 2) all lean animal, if implying every lean animal, and 3) all mountain pass, if implying every mountain pass, has not yet been fulfilled, are not correct.

You wrote that me writing that these things have not yet been fulfilled is incorrect?
In other words, are you claiming that it has already happened that people coming from or traveling through on every mountain pass and on every lean animal have came for Haji?
Are you really saying this has been fulfilled?

AhmadJoyia wrote: This is simply because of the indefinite future tense used in the verse which simply can't be assumed to have happened in the 'past', 'recent past', 'now', or even 'near future'.

If this verse is in the indefinite future tense than how can you claim I am wrong in saying that the verse has not been fufilled?

AhmadJoyia wrote: If you have any concrete refutation of my explanation, I am all yours to read about. Otherwise, the 'do loop logic' would not suffice and I would only request you to seek the help of bro Ron, again. Best regards.

I am trying to understand your explanation first. Please answer the questions below for me so I can get a better idea of what you are saying, and provide a refutation if necessary.

1) Are you claiming that people coming to Abraham from every distant mountain pass on every animal is something that has already been fulfilled, or has not yet been fulfilled?
2) If it has already been fulfilled, great. If not, then was I wrong in saying these things have yet to be fulfilled?
Looking forward to hearing your response, then I will follow up with mine. Thanks and take care.