Question about 22:27

Salaam alaikum,

I was wondering if the Muslim posters who are reading this can answer the following two questions for me regarding the verse below:

22:27

And proclaim to the people the Hajj [pilgrimage]; they will come to you on foot and on
every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass �


Which people is Abraham told to proclaim the Haji to? The people of Arabia or the people of the world?

Does �they will come from every distant pass� mean they will come from every mountain pass of Arabia, or every mountain pass of the world?

From the tafsirs I read, it seems to be that Abraham was speaking to people all around the globe and that God promised him that people from every mountain pass in the world will come to him.

Is this a correct understanding?

Many thanks.

TG12345 wrote: Salaam alaikum, I was wondering if the Muslim posters who are reading this can answer the following two questions for me regarding the verse below: 22:27 And proclaim to the people the Hajj [pilgrimage]; they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass � Which people is Abraham told to proclaim the Haji to? The people of Arabia or the people of the world? Does �they will come from every distant pass� mean they will come from every mountain pass of Arabia, or every mountain pass of the world? From the tafsirs I read, it seems to be that Abraham was speaking to people all around the globe and that God promised him that people from every mountain pass in the world will come to him. Is this a correct understanding? Many thanks.

In my opinion, 'People' and 'every pass' both are generic in their application in this verse where no specific one is described. I guess, I can agree with your understanding, if you mean the same. Here is one of the tafsir I got from internet:
When the Pilgrimage was proclaimed, people came to it from every quarter, near and far, on foot and mounted. The "lean camel" coming after a fatiguing journey through distant mountain roads typifies the difficulties of travel, which Pilgrims disregard on account of the temporal and spiritual benefits referred to in the next verse.

Edited by AhmadJoyia - 30 December 2015 at 11:33pm

TG12345 wrote: Salaam alaikum, I was wondering if the Muslim posters who are reading this can answer the following two questions for me regarding the verse below: 22:27 And proclaim to the people the Hajj [pilgrimage]; they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass � Which people is Abraham told to proclaim the Haji to? The people of Arabia or the people of the world? Does �they will come from every distant pass� mean they will come from every mountain pass of Arabia, or every mountain pass of the world? From the tafsirs I read, it seems to be that Abraham was speaking to people all around the globe and that God promised him that people from every mountain pass in the world will come to him. Is this a correct understanding? Many thanks. [QUOTE=AhmadJoyia] In my opinion, 'People' and 'every pass' both are generic in their application in this verse where no specific one is described. I guess, I can agree with your understanding, if you mean the same. Here is one of the tafsir I got from internet: When the Pilgrimage was proclaimed, people came to it from every quarter, near and far, on foot and mounted. The "lean camel" coming after a fatiguing journey through distant mountain roads typifies the difficulties of travel, which Pilgrims disregard on account of the temporal and spiritual benefits referred to in the next verse.

Thanks for sharing this, AhmadJoyia. I would agree the words �people� and �every pass� are generic here, and thanks for citing the commentary on this verse by Maulana Maududi.
The explanations on www.qtafsir.com and www.altafsir.com say more or less the same thing.

I think that this verse would provide evidence that the author of the Quran couldn�t have been God.

We do not know when Abraham lived (assuming he actually existed), but using the details in the Quran, we couldn�t place him any earlier than 1400 BCE. We know that he lived before Joseph, and Joseph lived prior to a time when there were pharaohs in Egypt (the Quran provides brilliant detail in verse 12:43, stating that at that time there would have not been pharaohs, but kings, using the word �malik� instead of �firawn�- the Bible incorrectly states Pharaoh). The first time the word �Pharaoh� was used to describe an Egyptian king was during the reign of Akhenaten.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh

We know that in 1000 BCE, the total global population was around 50 million people. Most of the world was very sparsely populated, and some parts were Antarctica were of course, and still are, unpopulated. Most of the population in the world resided in south-eastern Asia and western Europe, with a high density also in Central America. Most of North America, South America, Australia, Africa, and Eastern Europe had less than one person per square kilometre living there at that point.
The populations would have been of course even more sparse prior to 1400 BCE but let�s be generous and use a 1000 BCE estimate.
http://ourworldindata.org/data/population-growth-vital-statistics/world-population-growth/

According to 22:27, people came to the Kabaa either on foot, or by lean camels, if they traveled from far away lands. These are the only two modes of transportation described, and they make perfect sense for an author who would have at that time been unfamiliar with the Americas or Australia.

What is left out is that if people did indeed travel from all over the world, many of them would have neither walked or went by camel, but traveled by sea. The modes of transportation described in the Quran would have been only possible for those living on 3 of our 7 continents.
Not to mention that the first contacts between people in the Americas and anyone from the �outside world� were through the Vikings, who came sometime in the 10th century AD. Other theories exist, but are either without evidence or have been disproven outright.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories
Given the very limited technology that existed around 1000 BCE in the Americas, a journey from North or South America to Arabia at that time would have been impossible.

The verse states that God told Abraham that people would come to him �from every mountain pass�.

This is a pretty interesting analogy to use, considering the fact that most of the world was very sparsely populated, and as we know, mountains are one part of the world where very few people tend to set up their cities and homes.
Today, some twelve percent of the world�s population lives in the mountains, and mountains cover some twenty seven percent of the land�s surface. The world�s entire landmass is estimated to be 148.94 million square kilometres.
http://www.fao.org/forestry/28810/en/
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004373.html

To do some fun math, knowing that 12% of humanity today lives in mountains, which make up 27% of the world�s landmass, it would mean that on average, the human population density in mountains today is 17.9 persons per square kilometre. Of course, we know that some mountain ranges like the Andes are very densely populated, and others like the Antarctic mountains are completely empty.
Let�s skip to 1000 BCE, when the world�s population was 50 million people. Multiply that by 0.12 and divide by the extent of the earth�s surface that mountains take up.

You would have a population density of 0.15 persons per square kilometre. Even if we were to assume that all fifty million people at that time lived in mountains, the population density would still have been less than 2 people per square kilometre. Not even considering the fact that some very large mountain ranges, like the TransAntarctic Mountains, are totally unpopulated.

The statement that people would come �from every mountain pass� would be like me saying that I am going to be sending people into the world to collect wild lions, and they will be brought to me from every nation. Given the fact that wild lions only live in some parts of Asia and Africa, it would be a ludicrous statement.

Most mountains passes were uninhabited during Abraham�s time, so stating that people would arrive �from every mountain pass�, even if this did not mean every single one literally but just mountain passes in general, still would have reflected an ignorance of the world at that time.

Consider also the fact that in spite of the fact that people allegedly came to Abraham from every mountain pass, or even every part of the world, we have absolutely no record of any Chinese, Olmec, Greek, Cree or Indian persons ever making such a journey.
The first Chinese explorer reached the middle east in the second century BCE. Prior to that time, their people had no idea Arabia even existed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_exploration
Had people from all across the world been making such journeys, we surely would have had some archaeological evidence.

The Haji, allegedly instituted by Abraham for all peoples of the world, continued albeit in a corrupted form. However, the only people who were going to it in Muhammad�s time and even the 1st century BCE (Diodorus recorded that it was a sacred place and revered by all Arabs) were the Arabs� who coincidentally also happened to live there. Why would the first truly international centre of pilgrimage that people came to from every single part of the world be absolutely forgotten by everyone except people in the immediate vicinity? It makes no sense.

Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.
�And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.[2 ]
�
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html




Edited by TG12345 - 31 December 2015 at 8:32am

AhmadJoyia wrote: Hi Bro TG12345, I think you got confused with the past perfect tense used in the commentary to explain the verse. Thus, all your hectic effort, I must appreciate, is futile. Whereas, actually the verse is in future indefinite tense. Have a closer look at it again. 22:27 And proclaim to the people the Hajj [pilgrimage]; they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass � Its commentary is When the Pilgrimage was proclaimed, people came to it from every quarter, near and far, on foot and mounted. The "lean camel" coming after a fatiguing journey through distant mountain roads typifies the difficulties of travel, which Pilgrims disregard on account of the temporal and spiritual benefits referred to in the next verse.

My brother AhmadJoyia,
I don�t see what you are trying to say here.

Abraham is told �and proclaim to the people the Haji�. He is told that once he proclaims it, people will come to him �on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every distant pass�.
The verse does not say �they will come to Mecca�� it says �they will come to you�.

When Muslim pilgrims go to Mecca on Haji, do they go to see Abraham? Is he even buried there?

Maududi backs up this point saying that �when the pilgrimage was proclaimed�, people �came� from �every quarter, near and far, on foot and mounted�.
Who proclaimed the pilgrimage to the whole world? As the verse clearly states, it was Abraham.
After he proclaimed it, people allegedly flocked from everywhere in the world, to see him.

What do you think �you� in this verse is a reference to?

22:27
And proclaim to the people the Hajj [pilgrimage]; they will come to you on foot and on
every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass �

TG12345 wrote: According to 22:27, people came to the Kabaa either on foot, or by lean camels, if they traveled from far away lands. These are the only two modes of transportation described, and they make perfect sense for an author who would have at that time been unfamiliar with the Americas or Australia. What is left out is that if people did indeed travel from all over the world, many of them would have neither walked or went by camel, but traveled by sea. The modes of transportation described in the Quran would have been only possible for those living on 3 of our 7 continents.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Do you think Mecca is port city?

Of course not. But are you suggesting that a camel that had to walk from Jeddah to Mecca would be �lean�?

AhmadJoyia wrote: Secondly, the mode of tpt shown in future tense only typifies but not limited to.

So are you saying that the verse about people coming from every mountain pass was not a reference to the lifetime of Abraham, but instead to the present time? If so, why did God tell Abraham people will �come to you�?

TG12345 wrote: Most mountains passes were uninhabited during Abraham�s time, so stating that people would arrive �from every mountain pass�, even if this did not mean every single one literally but just mountain passes in general, still would have reflected an ignorance of the world at that time.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Why and how do you assume that 'Mountain pass' is for the people to reside in it. I can still call people are coming from the Mountain pass when actually people are using it only to cross over. Is this your point to argue about?

Let�s assume that this was a reference to people crossing through mountain passes. Do you really believe that all or even most mountain passes that exist have been traversed by people on their way to Mecca?
Please consider the map below. It is a map of the �Silk Route�, showing travel between people in �the far East� of Asia and the middle east. This was one of the most widely traveled roads, and how people from China discovered and traded with people in Arabia.
As you will see, the trail went through mountains at several points. As you will also notice, there are vast tracts of mountains that the people did not travel through. A large portion of the Himalayas was not traveled through. So was almost the entire mountainous region of what is now Pakistan. The Silk Road cut through the mountain ranges that it went through in several limited points.
The people crossing from these parts of Asia to Arabia it did not in any way, shape or form �go through every mountain pass�.
http://www.chinadiscovery.com/assets/images/silk-road/maps/world-silk-routes-full.jpg
Also, I can tell you for a fact that no one went through the many passes in the TransAntarctic Mountains on the way to Mecca� and with near certainty that no one from the Americas crossed any of the mountain ranges there during that time on the way to the Haji.

TG12345 wrote: Consider also the fact that in spite of the fact that people allegedly came to Abraham from every mountain pass, or even every part of the world, we have absolutely no record of any Chinese, Olmec, Greek, Cree or Indian persons ever making such a journey. The first Chinese explorer reached the middle east in the second century BCE. Prior to that time, their people had no idea Arabia even existed.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Again the same problem of 'tense'. Secondly, we do see now people not only from china but from every quarter of the world visiting Mecca through whatever means they get for transportation. This is exactly what is foretold to the Prophet Ibrahim.

If you can prove that Islam teaches that Abraham is buried in Mecca, then please provide evidence. Every Muslim and Jew I have spoken to who lives in Hebron, would tell me otherwise.

Let�s assume though that he is, and that the Quran was speaking of now, and saying that people will come to see him, from all distant mountain passes, traveling by foot and on lean camels� in our time.

Do people come to Haji today from or through every distant mountain pass?
Considering the fact that many of the mountain ranges in the world (in North America, South America) are populated primarily by non-Muslims, and that even in the Himalayas, vast tracts are inhabited by Hindus and Buddhists. Many Muslims live in Kashmir, but most of Tibet, Nepal and Bhutan are inhabited by non-monotheists.
To say that people travel to Haji from every, or even most, mountain passes, is not true. Below is a map of the world. The stuff in brown is mountains. As you can see, some of them are definitely in areas where there are many Muslims. Others are definitely not. The mountain ranges in Antarctica are not included, though they are I think the 4th biggest range in the world.
http://www.oocities.org/tour_map/tour_map/world_map.jpg
Of the 6 largest mountain ranges in the world, 5 of them are all in nations where Muslims are a very small minority, ranging from 0 percent (Antarctica) to 2.5 percent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_mountain_chains_in_the_world
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Religion/Islam/Percentage-Muslim#country

To say that people travel to the Haji through every mountain pass, or from every mountain pass, today, would be false. Maybe less false than in the time of Abraham, but still false nevertheless.

Secondly, and this is another important point� very few people if any travel to the Haji by camel anymore. The verse says that people will come by foot, and by every lean camel.
Most pilgrims today simply fly into Mecca. Most others drive.
How many of them do you believe hop on a camel, or go by foot? Have you gone on Haji, or know anyone who has? What was your mode of transportation?

If 22:27 is talking about the pilgrimage today, it still is not true.

Speaking of camels, the verse says the pilgrims �will come to you on every lean camel�. The only species of camels that live in Arabia and that there is any evidence of ever having lived there, is the dromedary camel.
There are two other species- the Bactrian camel, which live in Central Asia and has been used by people there, and the feral Bactrian camel, which has never been domesticated. Neither of these species of camels have been used to go to Mecca.

TG12345 wrote: The Haji, allegedly instituted by Abraham for all peoples of the world, continued albeit in a corrupted form.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Please show us how 'corrupted form'? Btw, is this your own sentence? Just asking, though your answer should reveal it, automatically.

It is my sentence.
Isn�t it true that a few centuries after Abraham instituted the Haji, the pagans changed Mecca from a place of worship of God alone, to worship of their false gods? Why else did Muhammad need to destroy the pagan idols there?

TG12345 wrote: Why would the first truly international centre of pilgrimage that people came to from every single part of the world be absolutely forgotten by everyone except people in the immediate vicinity? It makes no sense.

AhmadJoyia wrote: This is again through your confusion about the 'tense'. Obviously now that people all over the world are visiting Mecca. Do you want to revise your opinion now?

Not really.

Here are my points:
1)     The text of the Quran and of the tafsir you have showed me seems to indicate that God told Abraham that people will come to him.
�And proclaim to the people the Haji. They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every mountain pass�.

The only way this could be true for today would be if Abraham�s grave is in Mecca.

If the directive was as I believed during Abraham�s time it would have been not true, since a very small number of the world�s people lived in mountains at that time. Also, when people travel through mountains, they travel through a very limited number of mountain passes� not all or even most of them.
Also, there is no archaeological record whatsoever of people from around the world going to Mecca in 1500 BCE or earlier.

2)     If we assume that this verse was a reference to today, it would be untrue in other ways.
Many of the world�s mountain ranges are in areas that have mostly non-Muslim populations, and in fact 5 of 6 of the longest mountain ranges in the world run through countries that have very small Muslim minorities. The sixth longest one, the Himalayas, runs in two Muslim majority countries (Pakistan and Afghanistan) and in certain parts of India and China where there are many Muslims� but also other regions which are predominantly non-Muslim.
Also it needs to be pointed out that many mountain passes are at elevations where most people do not go, due to the health risks involved.
Also, most people today do not go to Haji either by walking or camel, they fly in or drive to Mecca.
And of course, only dromedary camels live and travel in Arabia. Bactrian and feral Bactrian camels do not. Neither of course do llamas or picunas, although one could argue they aren't "camels" even if they are from the same family.

Thanks for a great discussion, I look forward to hearing back from you.


Edited by TG12345 - 02 January 2016 at 8:40pm