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Blasphemy Rights Day.

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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2015 at 7:23am
Originally posted by Tim the plumber Tim the plumber wrote:


But given the serious stuff happening in the world why does such hot air cause you to care about it?


It believe that because of the serious times we are now living all such "hot air" can be problematic.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2015 at 8:53am
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

It's called emotions, and for some reason I knew you weren't a Vulcan incapable of understanding why people are offended.

I understand why people are offended.  As an "unbeliever", I find a great deal that is personally offensive in the Quran, not to mention the Bible.

However, I wouldn't for a moment suggest that either should be banned or that those quoting scripture (per se) should be punished.  If I don't like a book, I don't have to read it; but I have no right to tell others what they can or cannot read or write.

As for my emotions, they are my problem, not yours or anyone else's.  Being able to control one's emotions is a part of being an adult.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Tim the plumber View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2015 at 1:18am
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Originally posted by Tim the plumber Tim the plumber wrote:


But given the serious stuff happening in the world why does such hot air cause you to care about it?


It believe that because of the serious times we are now living all such "hot air" can be problematic.


This is the question I am asking.

Why does this hot air spoken not even in your presence but written somewhere where you have to go and find it cause you trouble.

Secondly, these times are the least violent ones in human history. All previouds periods have been more violent. It's just that today we get to see it more.

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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2015 at 7:43am
Are you completely unaware that individuals have acted upon narratives written or articulated by others? Rhetoric indeed has consequences, and should be used responsibly in a civil society. It would be nice if everyone was as cool as Tim the plumber.
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Tim the plumber View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2015 at 9:16am
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Are you completely unaware that individuals have acted upon narratives written or articulated by others? Rhetoric indeed has consequences, and should be used responsibly in a civil society. It would be nice if everyone was as cool as Tim the plumber.


That has a small point to it but what about when it's not in your society?

When you have to go out of your way to find it?

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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2015 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Are you completely unaware that individuals have acted upon narratives written or articulated by others? Rhetoric indeed has consequences, and should be used responsibly in a civil society. It would be nice if everyone was as cool as Tim the plumber.

This is the excuse used by every wife abuser since time began: "It's not my fault -- she shouldn't have got me mad!"

I repeat: people are responsible for their own emotions.  That's what being an adult is all about.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2015 at 8:01am
That's quite a leap Ron, but I guess the topic is general enough to be inclusive of domestic violence. My concern however is when irresponsible speech and completely manufactured fear of the "other" leads individuals such as Anders Breivik to harm innocent people. Having said that, I don't absolve Breivik, or a wife beater, of responsibility for their own actions. But, that doesn't mean that a society should not expect and even demand responsible and thoughtful human communication, which doesn't cause harm or incite others to violence.   

Edited by abuayisha - 14 October 2015 at 8:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2015 at 11:42am
I'm not trying to change the subject to domestic violence.  It's just a useful analogy.  It's true that there are some people whom it is unwise to provoke; but whatever you may think of the provocateurs, it is the person who crosses the line from insulting words to violent actions who is at fault.

If I recall correctly, abuayisha, I believe you live in the US.  As a minority in your country, it seems to me that you should be among the strongest supporters of freedom of expression.  Try to imagine yourself as an unbeliever while you read the Quran, and see how many times we are insulted and even threatened by it.  We are described as "the worst of creatures" (98:6), "unclean" (9:29).  Muslims are to be "forceful" (48:29) and "harsh" (9:73) with us.  They are promised Paradise for killing us (9:111).  They are to fight us until we pay the "jizya" (a.k.a. extortion) and are "humbled" (9:29).  Jews in particular are described as "apes" (7:166) and are cursed by God for causing corruption (5:64).  And I could go on.

I will defend your right to read a "Holy Book" filled with such vicious hatred, and even preach it in your mosques, even though I find it offensive and I worry about what violence it might provoke.  In turn, you must allow our books and our movies that tell what we regard as the truth about Muhammad and about Islam.  Remember, it cuts both ways: one man's blasphemy is another's sacred truth.

On second thought, maybe it doesn't always cut both ways.  It just occurred to me that the comparison I made above is symmetric except in one significant way.  Notice that in both cases, the concern is for possible violence that may be provoked among Muslims.

For my comparison to be completely symmetric, if Muslims are provoked to violence by criticisms of their religion, then it should be non-Muslims who would react with violence to the Quran's criticisms and threats against them.  Instead, it is Muslims who may be incited to violence by intolerant passages in the Islam's scripture; and also Muslims who might be incited to violence by criticisms of Islam.

I wonder why that is...
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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