a Surah the like thereof

TG12345 wrote: As a Muslim, you should be glad that people understood the verse metaphorically. A literal meaning would make it wrong.

The Saint wrote: I am just a humble Muslim who tries his best to understand what God Almighty has conveyed to all mankind. Never, should I be glad or depressed regarding how the Quran is accepted by Muslims or non-Muslims. I am keenly concerned with what I am able to learn of it.

Fair enough. Perhaps I should have said that as a Muslim you should be glad to know the verse can have a meaning other than literal, which would make it wrong.

TG12345 wrote: Nothing you said here is false. Most of the Bibles though agree on the key doctrines. As a person who doesn't anymore believe the Bible is correct on everything or is the word of God, I see no reason in defending it anymore like I used to.

The Saint wrote: Are you then, still a Christian?

Great question. In a very loose sense of the word, yes.
I believe Jesus was a great person, and that his teachings about relating to other people that are found in the Gospels are true and the most profound thing I have ever read. I believe he was crucified, don�t know whether he was resurrected by God.
I believe God created the world, and that He is good and just. I no longer believe that Jesus is God.
You can decide for yourself whether I am a Christian or not.

TG12345 wrote: Maududi's interpretation is correct and Khan's is incorrect because if the verse would have said that God did not put two literal hearts into the body of any man, it would be false since there have been people born with such a condition. The literal interpretation that you push forward is wrong because God does create some men who have two hearts in their bodies. Lippert is an example, as are others I brought up.

The Saint wrote: Only on that basis your opinion is hardly appropriate or accurate. Because, like I said earlier, Allah SWT makes rules yet in a lot many areas exceptions to those rules can be seen. For example, He made the rule that all human beings will be born through the union of a man and a woman, but Jesus PBUH was born without the said union.

Is there a verse that says that God did not create any person but through a man and woman? Or that all human beings come from a union of man and a woman?
Also, in the case of Jesus the �exception� (some could see it as a contradiction if there is indeed a verse that states all human beings are born through union of man and woman) is explained in the Quran itself. I see nothing in the book about people born with two hearts.

TG12345 wrote: However, this passage is only correct in the case of a metaphorical meaning, ie that by hearts, loyalty to God is meant. If taken literally, the passage is false since God has indeed created some men with two hearts in their chests. If taken metaphorically, it is correct but the "miracle" does not exist in this case since there is no reason that men could not have two metaphoric hearts but women could.

The Saint wrote: You are either not reading my responses carefully or you keep forgetting what I have already said. I said in one of my earlier responses that these are not miracles but the manner in which they have been revealed and recorded by a non-literate man, is.

In what manner is this a miracle? I know you have said it, but I don�t see the reason for this claim.

TG12345 wrote: Where is it written that He ignores exceptions though? Why would He make rules that are not always correct?

The Saint wrote: He does, you should know. Jesus PBUH is an exception to His rule!

Then how do you know there are not exceptions to the other rules we discussed (not punishing communities before warning them, all things prostrating to Him, not accepting other religions but Islam)? How do you know which rules have exceptions and which ones do not?

TG12345 wrote: I am afraid there is nothing miraculous in this verse, or very precise either.

The Saint wrote: IMHO, there is. And in other instances also related in that video.

What is miraculous or precise in it? The fact that a woman can have two hearts (hers and those of the fetus) but a man can�t? How is that precise or miraculous?

The Saint wrote: You need to understand the circumstances and the time and the order the revelation came down in. And to whom.

I understand Muhammad was illiterate and not a scholar, but are you suggesting the ancient Arabs thought that a baby inside its mothers womb did not have a heart?

The Saint wrote: You put the argument forward it is miraculous since it states that God has not put two hearts into the body of any man. The argument is made that this is a miracle since this mentions men and not women, who do have two hearts in their bodies- their heart and the heart of the baby, unlike men, none of whom allegedly have two. However, cases like that of George Lippert and others show that there are some men who have two hearts, and no one could have given them them except God. The verse is not literally true then, and if it was meant as a metaphor then it is no longer miraculous since there is no reason that God would have given women the ability to follow Him as well as other deities. Looking forward to reading your response, and thank you for a great and respectful debate. [QUOTE=The Saint] I am hoping the Jesus PBUH argument makes sense to you. It also explains everything about exceptions to His rule. You are welcome I enjoyed the debate, too.

I responded to that earlier in this most recent answer. Looking forward to discussing and learning more. Have a good day and Allahma3k.


Edited by TG12345 - 20 March 2016 at 5:52am

The Saint wrote: .....I do not think it is ok. Because we are going against nature. And that always leads to suffering.

Ok bro! Your dislike for 'Going against nature' could be your personal choice, but I hope you would agree that it has nothing to do with Islam, per se. If we agree on this, then should we discuss how one can explain using electricity for creating 'cold' environment during summer or 'warm' room during winter. Although, all these are works against the nature, but don't you think they do provide human comfort? So, which sufferings are you referring to, if not suggesting to go back to stone age by not adopting these methods? Just asking!

Edited by AhmadJoyia - 17 March 2016 at 4:53am

erm.......

So you can have a law that you can ignore when you feel like???

How do we know that it is OK or not OK to have test tube babies???

Not we, He! He can do whatever He wishes. Make laws and make exceptions as well. I do not think it is ok. Because we are going against nature. And that always leads to suffering.

If human science becomes able to produce a baby without such a union does that mean that Allah's words were wrong or just not imaginative?

Do test tube babies, which are born without the actual union of man and woman, or artifical insemination, make hs words false?

Allah SWT set-up a law that man and woman can reproduce if there is a union between them. But He made an exception in the case of Jesus PBUH. Likewise He can allow more exceptions. Like Lippert, test tube babies and such.

So, what we must understand is that He does make exceptions and the said exceptions do not prove Him wrong in any way.