a Surah the like thereof

Assalamu alaikum, my brother. Hope Ramadan is going well for you and your loved ones. My apologies for not responding earlier.

TG12345 wrote: Yes, so saying that God created Adam and Jesus without parents is not a contradiction of the saying that He made people from two parents... as one could say that Adam and Eve and Jesus were exceptions.

The Saint wrote: Are you saying and accepting that there could be exceptions to God's laws? If that is the case then our debate comes to a conclusive end. Which means, that there are exceptions to God's rules.

Yes there can be exceptions.
As long as there are no verses that state such an exception cannot occur.
If that were to be the case, the exception would be a contradiction.

TG12345 wrote: However, Him saying that He did not make any people but from a man and woman would contradict this.

The Saint wrote: Sure.

In the same way, Him saying that he created no man with two hearts in his body would be contradicted by the existence of a person who did indeed have two hearts in his chest... unless the statement made was a metaphorical one and not a physical one.

TG12345 wrote: In every other example I brought up from the Quran where God says He does not do anything, you believe there are no exceptions... and rightly so, since that would be a contradiction!

The Saint wrote: If I can recall correctly it was you who threw-up exceptions, i.e. Lippert. Then I countered that by much more famous and eminent exceptions.

Yes, but the difference between this exception and the ones you provided is that there are no statements that say God did not make people except of a man and a woman.
On the other hand, there is a verse that says God did not create any man with two hearts in his body.
This was either meant as a metaphor, or the life of George Lippert proved the Quran false.
The tafsirs of the verse point to the first possibility (ie that it was a metaphor), not the second.

TG12345 wrote: It may be implied that the woman may have two hearts in her body, but the statement that Allah did not place two hearts in the chest of a man is false... unless the verse is a metaphor.

The Saint wrote: I am amazed to note that you have still not grasped what was discussed in that video? To wit, the emphasis in that video on the fact that a woman may have two hearts in her body because she gets pregnant but a man does not get pregnant.

Had the Quran's author wanted to say this, he could have said no man has two legs in his stomach.
Treating this verse literally falsifies the Quran.
Treating it as a metaphor may take away the miracle claim discussed in the video but it at least does not falsify its text.

TG12345 wrote: If the verse is a metaphor, it is no longer an error but then it ceases to be a miracle in subtlety since the heart being referred to is a metaphor and not a physical thing... in which case a woman could also not have two hearts in her body. Either the verse is meant literally and the subtlety comes along with a scientific error or the the verse is meant as a metaphor and the lack of scientific error comes with the lack of a miracle.

The Saint wrote: The verse, I have already said could have a different meaning. One, that you appear to prefer. But in an indirect and subtle reference we see a linguistic subtlety also.

But the linguistic subtlety (which would be derived from a literal translation) comes with a scientific error.

TG12345 wrote: OK. In that case, this verse is as miraculous as 40:23 or many of the other verses in the Quran which state something that is already obvious.

The Saint wrote: Quran states things in its own inimitable manner and quite few things it says are miracles, in the sense that at the time those things were revealed no one knew about them on earth.

No argument with you there, TheSaint.
However, this verse is not one of them.

TG12345 wrote: Did He anywhere say He created no human being with no legs or no human being with three legs?

The Saint wrote: Not that I know of. But I would not rule-out the possibility that He, in His infinite wisdom, has said something in that context, even if indirectly.

If He did, such a statement would have been erroneous.

TG12345 wrote: Great. So here again you accept that God does not destroy wrong-doers without warning because there is a verse saying He does not destroy wrong-doers without warning.

The Saint wrote: I accept.

Alhamdullilah! :)

TG12345 wrote: In this case, accepting that God may have created men with more than two hearts in their chests despite a verse where God says He didn't would also be illogical and in my opinion reflect a double standard (sorry if I am being offensive, not my intent but that is the way I see it).

The Saint wrote: God does make exceptions, we have already seen that in the case of Jesus PBUH. But if I look-up the Bible I shall be able to provide exceptions by the thousands! So, you do not really have a case at all. Only you are trying to make one.

An exception is one thing. A contradiction is another.
If the verse is meant literally, the existence of people with two hearts in their chest would contradict and falsify it.

The Bible has not only exceptions, but many contradictions also. It is not the word of God.

TG12345 wrote: I could see why you would claim that the verse is a miracle by default. I don't see how you can continue to insist it is linguistically precise without seeing the obvious scientific error.

The Saint wrote: There is obviously no scientific error. As per universal law, women in pregnancy may have two hearts in her body but a man cannot have them because he cannot get pregnant. I hope you recognise the truth of the statement in this situation.

Of course there is a scientific error. It is possible for a man to have two hearts in his body. The cases we have looked at shown this.

Nice debating with you brother! God bless you and take care!

Edited by TG12345 - 05 June 2016 at 6:23pm

Let us look at another episode of Nouman Ali Khan's video which speaks about the difference in the way Moosa AS and Isa AS address the people of Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ULa2JzPG0 From app the 8:43 minutes onwards.

Another pointer to exemplary awareness and precision of the author.

Alaikum salaam, brother.

Waalaikumassalaam

But they also don't say He *didn't* create people in any other way.

I have just recollected that He does speak of other methods of human creation.

Saying God did things one way does not exclude the possibility that He did things also in other ways.
Saying He did not do things in any other way does exclude.

Depends on how he speaks! He may speak categorically or He may simply make a statement of fact. He may be definitive on an occasion or He may speak specifically about something.

Correct. And the Quran has an explicit statement that God did not create any man with two hearts in his body.

Is that statement explicit? No. The speaker says in the video says that Allah did not place two hearts in the chest of a man. But it is implied that a woman may have two hearts in her body but not her chest. That is the subtlety of the Quran.

OK, so you are arguing that the whole Quran is a miracle for this reason.

Yes.

Yet there is nothing miraculous about the verse about no man having been created with two hearts in his body on its own.

Here, it is an example of a subtlety in language. To be seen in the background of the revelation described in my previous post.

That isn't what I asked, bro :)
I asked will their *religions* be accepted?

No, no other religion shall be accepted.

But He also said He created no man with two hearts in his body. And we have seen examples of men who do.

Neither did He say there will be human beings with no legs or, one with three legs. But there are such.

And how do you know that? :)
Is it by any chance from verses like
6:131

This is because your Lord would not destroy the (populations of) towns for their wrong-doing (i.e. associating others in worship along with Allah) while their people were unaware (so the Messengers were sent).

Yes. There may be others as well.

OK I think I understand now. Since you believe the entire Quran is a miracle due to its revelation over several years, this verse automatically is one also, right? If I misunderstand what you said, please correct me brother.

Actually yes, the entire Quran is a miracle of miracles. Therefore, all ayahs in it are special and possibly miraculous in some manner. This particular ayah is remarkable because of linguistic precision.

The Saint wrote: Greetings TG

Alaikum salaam, brother.

TG12345 wrote: All these verses describe how God makes a person out of the sexual union of a man and a woman. None of them says God has not created man but from the union of a man and a woman. This is a pretty important difference.

The Saint wrote: But neither do they say that God employed other processes as well to create life!

But they also don't say He *didn't* create people in any other way.
Saying God did things one way does not exclude the possibility that He did things also in other ways.
Saying He did not do things in any other way does exclude.

TG12345 wrote: Saying that human beings come from the sexual intercource of a man and a woman is one thing. It is the norm, or as one could say, a rule. However, it leaves open the possibility there may be exceptions.

The Saint wrote: Certainly. The creation of Jesus PBUH is an exception to that rule. And the manner Adam PBUH was created was a third. And the manner He created Eve AS was yet another.

Yes. This is why the Quran does not say "God created no human but through a man and a woman".

TG1235 wrote: Saying that no person is created but from the sexual intercourse of a man and a woman is different. It is not general statement, but an absolute statement. An exception would make it wrong.

The Saint wrote: Yes, in the presence of an explicit statement that a union of man and woman was the only mode of procreation that statement would be wrong.

Correct. And the Quran has an explicit statement that God did not create any man with two hearts in his body.

TG12345 wrote: What were the circumstances in which this revelation reached Muhammad?

The Saint wrote: Beginning with the acceptance of the fact that Prophet Muhammad PBUH was not literate we must know that the revelation of the Quran was spread over a period of 23 years without any humanly known system or frequency. Neither were the revelations in a humanly known series.A revelation came for example surah no 2 and then there would be a revelation from surah no 23 and then from surah no 56 and so on. Therefore, the content was not known, the series was not known, how many verses will be revealed was not known. He simply received revelations at random and then he was advised by angel Gabriel where to put what. Under these circumstances the manner in which after putting together the fragments and pieces verses and surahs made complete sense was the miracle.

OK, so you are arguing that the whole Quran is a miracle for this reason.
Yet there is nothing miraculous about the verse about no man having been created with two hearts in his body on its own.

TG12345 wrote: Are you saying then that perhaps there are some religions that Allah will accept other than Islam, How would you test out these scenarios?

The Saint wrote: I am sure that certain non-Muslims who believe in God and the afterlife and who had been doing good deeds may be dealt with by God, kindly.

That isn't what I asked, bro :)
I asked will their *religions* be accepted?

TG12345 wrote: or that there are some of His creation that do not prostrate to Him,

The Saint wrote: I am absolutely sure that all His creatures must be prostrating to Him if He said so.

But He also said He created no man with two hearts in his body. And we have seen examples of men who do.

TG12345 wrote: or that He punished some communities without warning them?

The Saint wrote: He would definitely not! Because that is not His way.

And how do you know that? :)
Is it by any chance from verses like
6:131

This is because your Lord would not destroy the (populations of) towns for their wrong-doing (i.e. associating others in worship along with Allah) while their people were unaware (so the Messengers were sent).

TG12345 wrote: I understand Muhammad was illiterate and not a scholar, but are you suggesting the ancient Arabs thought that a baby inside its mothers womb did not have a heart?

The Saint wrote: I never said that. And I am sure they were aware of the two hearts phenomenon about two hearts inside a pregnant woman. But then that was not the objective of the relevant verse. I think this has been made amply clear many times.

OK I think I understand now. Since you believe the entire Quran is a miracle due to its revelation over several years, this verse automatically is one also, right? If I misunderstand what you said, please correct me brother.