Moratorium on corporal punishment

As-Salaamu Alaikum

I humbly see your point of view Ummziba (about the honey tongued). Sorry (if I gave you a headache with my view on the Yusuf Islam article), however I don�t think listening to music, is a way to relieve a headache.

Dear mrshakeel,

I agree with you that � the �Rajm book� is the most authentic piece on the matter. However I disagree with the comment - �I believe that problem of our Ummah is not the 'Ulemahs' rather its us - so called educated elite who don't have knowledge about Islam. We don't bother to learn Islam from teachers of Islam. We rather learn it either from Westerners, Western resources or from internet and books.�

I embraced Islam with an open & trusting heart, and it was the confusion (as to which �fraction� was correct), & hence contradiction in the message I was been offered, that lead me to turn to a book, & be mistrusting of those around me. Hence if the Scholars who posses the knowledge, disagree, then this will only cause confusion (& disagreement) amongst the people whom are �not educated�.

Dear Sheikh Sharrif, you stated -

�Muslims need to stop learning Islam from their western masters and start learning Islam from the true classical scholars.  The problem with muslims is that they are mentaly colonize.  Before the muslim lands were colonized by their british/western masters.  Since, their western masters left their lands, they are now mentaly colonized. Wanting to be like them in every single possible way.� 

I can see your point of view, most Muslim�s in the east seem to desire the �western capitalist way of life�. However before writing us reverts off, I would like you to remember that �we� have seen through the false dream capitalism offered, & (some of us) wish to embrace (true) Islam.

I would also like to point out that, for me to overcome (which I will continue to root out) the (Kufr) conditioning I was put through was in effect, a means to master �their� evil witchcraft. So now I have knowledge of their witchcraft (knowledge which you do not posses), knowledge I only wish to use, for good purposes.

Wa-Salaam

Nadir

assalmu alaikkum,

Quran supercedes Hadith and if you are a true Muslim, you have to obey Quran. If Quran does not say, you are not wrong not to follow Hadith, which has been 1. written after 150 to 200 years; 2. it is proven that pollution of Hadith since our prophet Mohamed (s). 3. Adulteration of Hadith and Bible had occurred for many reasons; 4. no one can vouch CHRONOLOGY OF HADITH, SINCE NO CONFIRMATORY PROOF EXIST-- when prophet said anything --- IS IT BEFORE THAT SURA or AFTER that SURA. 

I am not throwing the Hadith totally. Muslims should obey Quran, which is authentic 100 %. Hadith has Prophet's sayings and actions as well as Pollution.  So, discussion should be based on "logic" rather than BLIND FAITH to Hadith, LIKE THE CHRISTIANS HAVING BLIND fAITH to the Bible, which has GOD'S WORDS, JESUS WORDS, AND MAN'S WORDS.

I agree with the 3rd Post by Liaqat Ali (m12390), who has justified against " stoning to death. ". When Allah has not mentioned in his Book, you dont need to claim it is Islamic.

If you dont want to obey Quran, then you are a HIPPOCRITE ( Munafeeqeen ).  The 2nd Post by 'Shaik Shariff" -- postings can be considered if he can produce the authentic written records dating back to (before Hijri ) -10 to (after Hijiri) 15.

If you DONT HAVE IT, then dont insist that Hadith is the word of Mohammed, as Christians insist that Jesus is the son of God and died for the "original sin", etc.,

I am not asking to discard Hadith totally. There are lot of good recommendations are there to follow. If you dont follow, I dont thing Allah is going to throw you in the Hell.

We do have Hadith also prophet Mohamed (s) saynig: to follow him ONLY WHAT HE SAID ABOUT RELIGION, and has recommended NOT TO BLINDLY FOLLOW in other actions.

Abdul Rahman, Anaheim

Assalaamu Alaikum

Dear SheikhShariff,

I would like to clarify my �under/overstanding� of the issue Ummziba refers to.

(Ummziba I know you are more than capable of standing up for yourself, hence please do not hesitate in reprimanding/correcting me, if you think I have misinterpreted [your point], or indeed if you do not wish me to stand up for you).

If I may quote a Hadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira (R.A.): I heard the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) saying: Verily Allah created Mercy. The day He created it, He made it into one hundred parts. He withheld with Him ninety-nine parts, and sent one part to all His creatures. Had a non-believer known of all the mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had a believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-fire. [8:476 - O.B.]

I have quoted the above Hadith, as I think it illustrates nicely the fact that, people who are not currently within the fold of Islam (or new to), should be offered (by Muslim�s) every hope of been successful within Islam. The Hadith about the woman who threw garbage on the Prophet (S.A.W.), & then later embraced Islam (as she witnessed the Prophets [S.A.W.] mercy, despite her bad actions toward him), also illustrates this.

Hence even though I agree with much of what you say, I ask that when you make statements (in bold [as you have also done in your reply in the �Unity� thread]) like: 

"And keep thy soul content with those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His Face; and let not thine eyes pass beyond them, seeking the pomp and glitter of this Life; nor obey any whose heart We have permitted to neglect the remembrance of Us, one who follows his own desires, whose case has gone beyond all bounds." (Aayat 28 Surah Al Kahf)

You respectfully remember (the perspective of) a revert, who will inevitably have past �conditioning� to overcome, hence to throw them �out of the frame�, just because they have certain aspects of their personalities to correct, is indeed showing no mercy (A lesson I also learn).

If I may offer a parable to further illustrate the point:

If one observes Allah�s (S.W.T.) creation, one will see that, in the middle of the night�s darkest point, the �Light of the day� is not, instantly switched on. On the contrary, there is a gradual flow from darkness, into the Light of day.

Another parable I could use is that of water:

If water stagnates (ie a pond), it becomes impure (to drink)

If water rushes as a torrent, it stirs up sediment form the riverbed, & also becomes impure (to drink).

Finally there is a gentle flowing stream, it is neither stagnant, nor is it torrential, hence it is pure, & will benefit one to drink there from.

To conclude this post, I would like to say that, there is nothing wrong with placing the fear of Allah (S.W.T.) (as you do), in life long Muslim�s. However to preach in exactly the same way to someone who has reverted (recently), may only have the effect of turning them away from Islam, as it may place undue pressure on them, if you expect then to be able to adhere to every Islamic Law, from the very beginning.

So if you insist on calling people disbelievers, because they have not currently had the opportunity to adjust to the Islamic way of life, you play a very dangerous game.

Wasalaam

nadir

Salamoalaikum to all,

In approaching this discussion there must be a couple of items that must be understood before you all go blasting about each other, calling each other names, and the sort... Basically, the majority of posts here (especially those with name calling, etc.) need to yet learn the essential basics of manners (adab) before even wasting their life and time on such more complex and broader topics such as stoning, etc.  Because, one person who fails to understand the simple nature of selflessness and manners (adab) can not and has no right to even begin to discuss or debate on such matters. 

In an essense, those who name call and can not control themselves in such a manner, you are only the mere atomic symbolization of the same governements/regimes in power today in the "Islamic countries" who claim to follow Islam and claim to be the regime in power who are founded for and by Islam - and how can such powers then perscribe the hudud of Allah when they themselves are not for and by Allah's religion?  And honeslty, I don't think one of the name callers truly read nor understood Br. Ramadan's writing - might be a bit of a challenge to the unaccustomed to the gravity of the words...

Lest you forget that in the last century all these countries: Egypt, Saudi, Emirates, Jordan, etc.etc. (and more) were only carved out due to each ruling family's wishes based on money, political power, worldy agendas, and other worldy items. How can a ruling power based on kufr and nifaq (hypocricacy) be a just and true ruling class to pass Islam rulings - and claim to stand for God?  And how can those living under such regimes call for justice on the ones who themselves are oppressed?  This is a paradox - yet your intellect fails you - because their propaganda has you.

Who has given these so called Islamic rulers of our times the permission, the right, or the freedom to come above us as rulers and decree things over us, our resources, our establishments, our freedoms, our rights? Who has this right.  According to Islam, anyone who does not follow within the boundaries of Islam has no right to rule.  This is a clear fact!  Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never directed or declared, or demaned a specific form of government during or before his death- but the basic stands true - you pick your leader and as long as they follow Islam you help them and support them - and when the leader goes outside of Islam you support them by showing them they are wrong - and when they don't listen and fight against you and oppress you - you basically overthrow them and pick another leader - the people are in control as long as the people follow within the boundaries of Islam. This is rather different than what the West is accustomed to in their version of "democracy.".  Islam and the way of Allah is the true democracy - because it frees from slavery of another human being, group, family, class, etc. and into the slavery of Allah (God) the Creator... what ever freedom do you need?

Yet, the focus of many of the ulama are not on this critical and foundational issue - rather they revert themselves to writing books about fasting, manners, stoning, or writing books about prayer, etc.  And they pass laws about dress-codes, and women not driving, etc. All diversion tactics.  We don't need to know whether stoning is ok or not, we don't need to know these things right now.  How many books do we really need on these issues? You are overfeeding us and we'll all just throw up soon!

Deep down inside, anyone who goes and researches will know that these things are true and approved as law...we already know this. We don't need ulama like the Christians and Jews have reverted - where they are completely mindless and only look to their ulama for "truth".  Any human being can easily find the Truth in the Quran and Sunnah - we don't need sell outs to tell us the Truth - Allah is our guide and anyone who places their trust and faith in Allah will not go astray.

Don't try to revert our attention to these nonsensical things - rather the core of the problem in our tree of Islam is not the leaves that turn brown - this is just a natural cause - rather, it is the root of the evil at hand.  And the root of the evil are the rulers of our "civlizations," "countries," "states," etc.  And neither the rulers nor their sell-out ulamas want the Muslim world's attention to this core issue - one of the core and fundamental requirements for an Islamic society to be analyzed and discussed: "themselves" (the rulers and their so called ulamas).

Our priorities are at a loss.  It is our own right and our responsibility to make sure that we remove and replace the ruling that are not following on the right path of Islam - to start in a peaceful manner with discussion and dialogue.  All the ulama of today are befuddled because they find themselves comfortable with their well paid salaries, houses, food, and worldly comforts.  The ulama of today have sold their religion in favor of their worldly comforts and gains, and their political friendships.  They are human beings too - so they have done the same as the ulama of the Christians and Jews.  Muslims aren't some different species or race of elite humans - we are humans - as human as any other human - and you will make the same mistakes.  But the religion of Allah is clear.

How can we turn to these ulama for knowledge and a clear understanding of Islam, when it is these same ulama who for the riches of this world have sold Islam, themselves, and the rest of mankind?  You show me one ulama that does not receive money for their service?  Today, a qari (one who has memorized the Quran) comes to the mosque and gets paid for services? How is this not different than the Christians and Jews who do the same business with religion?  I tell you, the biggest business today is religion and the Muslim ulama sell outs are following the same trend.

Look at any Arab country and all the ulamas basically work for the government, speak only by and for the government and the governments controlled and well articulated propaganda.  They busy the ulama and the people with ridiculous waste of time on nonsensical issues that is child's play - while they allow those who hate Islam to remain in power.  Shame on us for being fooled for the past two to three hundred years.  

As for all you ulama's - Where are the Imam Abu Hanifas,Imam Maliks,Imam Jafars, Imam Hambals, etc.,etc., of today? Have you any reflection of their care not to take anything for there religious knowledge for worldy gain? Have you any reflection of Umar when he said if I go crooked who will straiten me with the sword?? Have you ulama's have no shame - to teach how Imam Abu Hanifa was imprisoned and beaten, like many of the other ones - while yourself recline in the comfort of your worldy illusions? Have you no shame when the rest of the true ulama are imprisoned by your own rulers and you can not even speak for the Truth? Yet you sit there and write your satanic epiphanies of holiness and propagandic support of your shameless and un-Islamic rulers? 

It is the ulama and the ruling oppressors who have given Islam a bad name, a bad position, and sucked us down to the lowest class of human dignity and human civlization. You are the leaches that are sucking the life blood out of Islam. It is you who have brought upon the inhabitants of all these truly Islamic civilizations this hatred, disgust, and oppression upon us.  The majority of the Muslim masses are true in their faith and strong - yet you are weak and your time will soon come - because you are all hypocrites. Allah is a fairest of judges and the best of planners.  Insha, Allah, your time will come - and Allah will bring over you a true Islamic ruling class that will abass your false worldly, racist, cultural and political scheming. 

Allah's religions does not need you. Just as you have used Allah's religion for your worldy gain, now you will taste the true outcome of your own deeds.  Allah's religion does not need you - it is timeless and will continue for eternity - because Allah is eternal, and as for me and you and the rest of us, we only live 100 years if we're lucky - we go on passing, while the religion of Allah is True and will remain.  You ulama are only fooled by the illusions of this world.

Shame is on all the ulamas that have sold their religion to bring about this state to the Muslim world.  Allah is aware and Allah will bring about the worse punishment to you - and soon Allah will replace you and your well established worldy riches and leaders - Allah's plan is a plan decreed and Allah is just in the affairs of this world and the hereafter.

As for those brothers that keep attacking the westerners - I don't blame you.  But maybe some of you should get to know some of the westerner Muslims and then you will not be so flagrant in name calling.  The same way some of the brothers attack and name call the "Westerners" - they do not want the "westerners", "kafirs", "mulhids", "munafiqs" , etc. to tell them what Islam is and is not; Then you should also defend the helpless and poor people who are receiving the same rulings (hudud of Allah) on them by those in power who are in themselves corrupt and even worse an enemy to the Muslims than even the "westerners".  I remind you on this; because even you know for yourself - as they are the worst enemy to you.  And I'm sure you can find all the hadith and verses from the Quran for this.  Maybe we should sit here in the West and name call all the Muslims in the East because they accept their corrupt rulers when in fact they are supposed to come out to the streets and overthrow them - yet you see when it comes to action you don't get up and do - rather you like to keep things metaphorical and just call names.  Evil is the way you comprehend things.  You live in an unparallel illusion.

I guess you can argue that the people of these "states" , "civilizations", "countries", "regions", whatever you call them, are basically deserving of their own rulers - because I'm sure you know of the hadith that is mentioned of this - that the ruling class, group, or person is a reflection of the people's state of Iman (level of faith and closeness to Allah).

Back to the topic at hand: The wholistic notion here is not whether the hudud of Allah is correct; rather, I see brother Ramadan as noting that when and where and by whom is this sort of rulings allowed to be applied by.  The overall point here is that the majority of the ruling class, ruling family, ruling person, and so called "democracies" in the Muslim world today have this problem.  Where the rulers are in no way at a level or authority or have the right to rule in the first place; nor are they at the same level of their own people. At least in the western civilizations the rulers are from the people - although still not close to Islam - so why then do the so called "rulers of Islamic countries" differentiate so vastly away and divided from their own people? Have you no rationality or reason? Are you so blinded by their propaganda?

Therefore, brother Ramadan's call for discussion must be read carefully and understood clearly.  He calls for a discussion that is filled with evidence rather than general, vague, timid, confrontational, illicit, and vulgar dialogue - as is the case right now.  He opens up with the fact that there are serveral "thoughts" which show many disagreements:

"Several currents of thought exist in the Islamic world today and disagreements are numerous, deep and recurring. Among these, a small minority demands the immediate and strict application of hudud, assessing this as an essential prerequisite to truly defining a "Muslim majority society" as "Islamic". Others, while accepting the fact that the hudud are indeed found in the textual references (the Qur'an and the Sunna[2]), consider the application of hudud to be conditional upon the state of the society which must be just and, for some, has to be "ideal" before these injunctions could be applied. Thus, the priority is the promotion of social justice, fighting against poverty and illiteracy etc. Finally, there are others, also a minority, who consider the texts relating to hudud as obsolete and argue that these references have no place in contemporary Muslim societies."

He notes: 

A. A small minority who demands that strict application of hudud be applied - and their reasoning is that doing so is the essential focal point on the continued building, maintaining, and long term establishment of an "Islamic society" or civilization.

B. There exists another group that says basically that: Yes the hudud (in this case punishments) perscribed in the Quran and Sunnah are correct - no arguments there; however, these hudud can only be perscribed on the condition that the "society", "civilization" , or nowadays "the state" or "country" have a regime in power - basically a government - that is just by nature according to what the Quran and Sunnah perscribe - and when such a government is in place - then and only then, can they have the right and authority to apply Allah's hudud on those who are found to be guilty.

C. The last group basically claims all these hududs are obsolete and a new wave of analysis and discussion must be done to bring about new hudud (rulings,etc.)... as if Allah in all his mightiness and knowledge messed up and confided in hudud that are prone to error and fallacies due to time... (which I disagree with).

I believe this is a good discussion to have - because I believe this goes back to the root of the problem again.  Take any issue facing the Muslim world and it all goes back to the root of the problem.  You have to weed it out before you can begin to have any form of discussion as such - but maybe, the weeding out itself may come from discussion as such... insha Allah - set let us move forward with discussion.   

Basically, his aim again is:

"It is as if one does not know, as though a minor violation is being done to the Islamic teachings. A still more grave injustice is that these penalties are applied almost exclusively to women and the poor, the doubly victimized, never to the wealthy, the powerful, or the oppressors. Furthermore, hundreds of prisoners have no access to anything that could even remotely be called defense counsel. Death sentences are decided and carried out against women, men and even minors (political prisoners, traffickers, delinquents, etc.) without ever given a chance to obtain legal counsel. In resigning ourselves to having a superficial relationship to the scriptural sources, we betray the message of justice of Islam."

The point here is that if the ruling class were correct, they would apply the same to their own ruling class and family.  Anyone claiming justice under Allah will apply the rulings to themselves before they even begin to apply on anyone else. The ruling families of today in the Arab world involve themselves in illicit sex, drugs, alcohol, etc. and they know this themselves.  Yet, when they catch a lowly poor man bringing one bag of drugs into the country - the guy is executed and the ulamas clap and hail the great work of the ruling powers at hand.  Yet the ruling class themselves bring in alcohol by the crates and hang out at the clubs and bars and at their leisure around the world.  This is the realiy of it and those who live under these regimes can not see beyong the propaganda.  Wake up.

On a very complex and higher level, one can see that the imposing of such rulings at a time when the ruling class are the MOST CORRUPT ON THIS EARTH is the highest injustice of the time and anyone with enough knowledge of this must speak out against it and demand justics.  So instead of name calling people who are standing for True Islam and Justice,  why don't you go and speak against your own ruler - the reason you can't and won't is that you 1. do not see at all 2. if you do see - you won't dare because they will nab you and suff you into the prisons and torture you just the same - and all the while you cling to some books and rulings of the ulamas - because it makes you "feel" more of a Muslim ...    shame.