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Moratorium on corporal punishment

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ummziba View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ummziba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 2:55pm

A most excellent post, abuhuraira!

                                  

You have most certainly hit the nail on the head by calling the situation in (so called) Muslim countries the way it is.

It has always struck me as sad and strange the difference between the attitude and feelings of "everyday" Muslims and those of the "ruling classes".  

The Muslim world is in very dire need of strong "Islamic" leadership.  Not the kind that can spew Qur'an and ahadith with their mouths while their hands grope for more money, but those who actually live as true Muslims!

May Allah help us all to overcome this great division and pull our world back together!

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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rami View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2005 at 12:30am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

I am posting a few comments a br who i personnaly know said about the original article by Tariq Ramadan on another forum similar to this one, he is a student of knowledge and has a number of ijazah. I havnt read the posts but insha allah what he said is of benefit.

>>>The call for a morotorium is wise and very Islamic.

To suggest this is not Islamic is a failure to understand and acceptthe reality of Islam. Morotoriums were clearly placed by the Rightly Guided Calpihs, and more than on one occasion. The confusion of "scholars" about Hudood is coming from the lack of understanding of morotoriums as well as increased capital punishment during the period of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. There is an unnecessary confusion between the generic universals of the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet in comparison to the contextual particulars of the rightly Guided Scholars. This confusion should not exist, which in turn indicates that itwould be silly to continue with Hadd punishment when even our scholars are clouded in judgment.

I do not think Tariq Ramadan is saying that the Qur'an alone is somehow unclear on the matter. There is a history on Hudood that causes a lack of clarity in many scholars today.

Further, the Hadd punishment is only valid under a legitimate authority which is established to implement the governance under Shari'ah. I am not aware of ANY country coming even close to be deserving of this responsibility.

There is a need for a mammoth change in societal accessibility and acceptability of many matters that are not just the crimes itself, but things that lead to it. No person can remove Hadd punishment- it is a Command of Allah. What Allah requires of human beings is to be wise about it, as was clearly examplieifed by the Rightly Guided Caliphs..... they are called "rightly guided" for a reason.

Was Salaam
Afroz
<<<

>>>Not speaking for Dr. Tariq Ramadan here, obviously, the facts are that the Rightly Guided Kulafa did remove certain punishments, temporarily, for similar reasons to today. And it is beyond the oft-quoted situation where Umar bin al-Khattab had foregone punishment for stealing.

There is evidence, for example, of adulterers NOT stoned AND not banished from the town. Both Umar (at his khilafat) and 'Ali concurred. 'Ali was initially hesitant but upon explaining the context of the times they found themselves in it was on a morotorium.

On the other hand there is evidence of INCREASED punishment on the Perisan alcohol "epidermic" within the Muslim population.

So, essentially there has been Qiyas-related morotoriums by the rightly guided. We can only learn from that and apply the wisdom. I totally agree that there is not an ounce of confusion on ther nature of Hadd punishment. I do not think Dr. Ramadan is referring to that at all. What I am referring to, and suspect Dr. Ramadan is as well (given he is more knowledgeable than me, at least), that due to the fact there were conditional morotoriums, scholars are quite unable to decipher through the facts, and are pretty much blinded by the emotion.... and we do not want emotion driving the wisdom behind hadd punishment.

Was Salaam
Afroz
<<<

I once heard Tariq Ramadan give the Khutbah when he was here in australia and i can say he is extremely inteligent and eloquent, funny enough he was here for a very short period, in one week he pin pointed exactly what was wrong with the Australian muslim community which was the subject of the khutbah.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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nadir View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nadir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2005 at 5:13am

 

 

The Middle Course

 

 

 

I would like your opinion on where you consider the middle way (straight path) to be?

 

 

Surely it is the middle way within the Sacred Laws Of Islam?

 

Not the middle way between western values & Islamic Law?

 

 

 

I saw a T.V. programme last night (called, Shariah TV), & to be honest with you it made me feel physically sick. Tariq Ramadan was one of the speakers on the programme, along with Dr Badwi. I felt sick because they were talking about Islam as though it were merely a social/political movement, designed to control & dupe the masses.

 

Not once did I even here them mention Allah (S.W.T.).

 

 

Hence despite my apparent harshness toward SheikhShariff (I was merely trying to help you, so that you may improve as a person), I would like to offer my support to him, as I have perceived his quote:

 

The basis of unity is to sustain the limits of the Deen. And this unity will remain as long as there is Taqwa.

-          Hakimul Ummat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi [rahmatullah alahy]

 

It saddens me to say that, I can see a lot of people have indeed abandoned true faith in Allah (S.W.T.), they no longer fear Him, hence feel they are justified in tampering with Divine Law, because to them there is no Divine. These are the very people who wish to dilute Islam into something that suits them, as a pose to submitting to Allah (S.W.T.) & His Last Messenger (S.A.W.).

This view sickens me.

I believe in You, O� Allah, (the One, the Only, Creator of the Heavens and the Earth), I will continue to do so, & I will continue to strive for You, even if I am the only person on the earth who believes.

 

O� Allah, I know You are separate from Your creation, and therefore unsoiled by impurities.

 

I please ask that You bring down the haughty, corrupt, and favour the weak & innocent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Khadija1021 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Khadija1021 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 12:54pm

Assalamu Alaikum

I bought this back up to the top and gave it some sticky substance after reading an article which refers to in on the home page of IslamiCity.  Inshallah other will read it and might even add a post here.

Allah Hafiz

Sister Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ummziba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 1:43pm

Assalamu alaikum,

None of this is familiar at all .  Think I'll go look at the snow melting.

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Khadija1021 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 1:53pm

Assalamu Alaikum

Sis Ummziba, if I could reach over there to you, I would give you the biggest Islamic hug ever.  I love you dearly and not matter if you don't remember any of it, you are still the beautiful sister that wrote it a year ago.  Alhamdulillah!!!  Jazak Allah Khair for what you have given to others here in this forum group.

Allah Hafiz

Sister Khadija



Edited by Khadija1021
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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rami View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 10:46pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum Ummziba

Sis if it makes you feel any better when i saw this thread i read the first two pages and thought about replying to some of the things that were said then i scrolled down two more posts and saw i had already written back then exactly what i inteded to right now. so your not the only one who couldnt remember this.

most people cant remember what happened last week let alone 1year ago so dont be so hard on your self.

Regarding the moratorium on Hudud punishment i want to add the following,

moratorium

1 a : a legally authorized period of delay in the performance of a legal obligation or the payment of a debt b : a waiting period set by an authority
2 : a suspension of activity

In the context of Hudud punishment it means that this type of punishment should be suspended temporarily, not indefinatly becouse there is greater harm or injustcie if it is carried out.

the Khalifh Umar in a time of famine or drought placed a moritotirum on the cutting of hands for theft becouse the drought was forcing people to steal. This act of his established the legal principle that an islamic Khalifah or Government must "remove
the Harm" before it can meet out any punishment.

This responsability also includes creating an islamic scociety [in all respects] in which a muslim can live and practice islam, no such place exists on earth today. The fitnah of riba is enough proof of this, where rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] prophesised that not one would be free from its traces.

Sayidinah Umar was extremey meticulous in has duties as a Khalif of Allah to the extent where he said "If a sheep dies on the shore of the Euphrates I fear lest Allah ask me to account for it on the Day of Resurrection."

Umar was given the gift of true inspiration. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) said:

"Allah has engraved truth on the tongue of `Umar and his heart" and "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar."

The Prophet highlighted `Umar's gift in this respect in particular:

In the nations before you were people who were spoken to (muhaddathun) though they were not prophets. If there is anyone in my Community, it is `Umar ibn Khattab.

It is related by Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, and Ahmad. It is elucidated by the two hadiths in Tirmidhi (which he graded hasan) whereby "Allah has engraved truth on the tongue of `Umar and his heart" and "If there were a prophet after me verily it would be `Umar." Tirmidhi adds to the muhaddath narration that according to Ibn `Uyayna "spoken to" means "made to understand" (mufahhamun), while in his narration Muslim adds: "Ibn Wahb explained "spoken to" as meaning "inspired" (mulhamun)," and this is the majority's opinion according to Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (7:62:#3689) who adds "spoken to" means "by the angels." Nawawi and Ibn Hajar said respectively in Sharh Sahih Muslim and Fath al-Bari:

The scholars have differed concerning "spoken to." Ibn Wahb said it meant: "inspired" (mulhamun). It was said also: "Those on the right, and when they give an opinion it is as if they were spoken to, and then they give their opinion. It was said also: the angels speak to them.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Angel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2006 at 1:09am
Originally posted by ummziba ummziba wrote:

Assalamu alaikum,

None of this is familiar at all .  Think I'll go look at the snow melting.

Peace, ummziba.

don't worry  this is a big place  

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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