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Jinns are not fiction |
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The Saint 
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Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
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 Posted: 04 September 2015 at 4:01am |
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Please explain why you think it is ordinary.
I am reasonably sure.....even...you would know that. However, since you have claimed it to be equal to a divine surah I am asking you to go ahead and prove it here how? You and your brothers in faith started to claim that there is no surah/poem better/equal than [one in] the Quran - not me. Of course, I said it. And I am saying it again. But I cannot understand why you chose this poem? They are chalk and cheese! They are not comparable in any conceivable manner. It is hilarious analysing two things that ought not be compared. Cricket and baseball. Basho and Proust. Christmas and April Fools' Day. God and Satan. Scripture and balderdash. But such incongruous comparisons do raise questions about the mental balance of the person who is making them? I don't think it is frivoulous (if you think so "why" ?) but just a fact: The poem I posted is better. You have a right to an opinion, no matter how cockeyed it is. But you cannot become a public nuisance by posting non sequiturs. If you disagree give me your reasons (beyond "it is obvious that ...") why you think that this it is not the case. You need to first list the criteria you used to select this poem to compare with a surah of the Quran. Also, which surah did you think it could compare with? Your second attempt to prove me wrong was no better than the first one . O, I am not trying to prove you wrong. I know I am dealing with imbecility here. So, I am in the process of finding the most polite method to express myself here. Wishing you even more luck for the next attempt: May Allah SWT..........have mercy on you. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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The Saint
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Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
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Posted: 04 September 2015 at 8:00am |
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My ilk minds our own business, and certainly does not kill people over private behaviours that don't affect anyone else. Good thing, too, because you really don't want to know what I think about prostrating yourself on the ground five times a day. Wink
I have observed that you answer my posts selectively. Picking-up my statements from here and there. Why can you not stand-up like a man and answer all. However, let us see what we have here. I wish you were as tolerant as you claim! But you are not. You appear to be secular only because you have drifted away from your religion, Christianity or Judaism or whatever. Incidents of hate violence against Asians in general and Muslims in particular, like attacking women or tearing-off their hijabs demonstrate how secular or brave you are. Or, how really mind your own business. So if homosexuality is a choice, then is heterosexuality a choice as well? Could you choose to have sex with a man, and enjoy it? Astaghfirullah! I would hate myself even if the idea came to my mind. Homosexuality is a disease, it is not a choice. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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The Saint
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Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
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Posted: 04 September 2015 at 8:30am |
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Airmano:
It seems that you still can't accept that about 80% of humanity consider the Quran as ... man made ! (including me). The Saint: Do you have stats to support such a claim? Or, did a fairy whisper in your ears......LOL Just read your own line that follows the one I cite above. My line: The Quran is held in high esteem by about 23% of mankind. But do you know how many more believe in it? Or, how many more are taking to it everyday? Given that there are conversions taking place everyday. Oh, I perfectly understand. But I've seen too many people telling me fairy tales with the intention to make me gobble their nonsense. I do not know what type of people you consort with. And what type of 'fairies' you befriend. But if you are gullible enough to believe in evolution you deserve all the nonsense you get. Yeah we know this trick! Accusing people you want to get rid of of all sorts of crimes and perversities, deprive them of all human traits and hop, off you go: killing Jews, Unbelievers, Homosexuals, and people with a (European) shoe-size above 43 just as you please. ... And don't forget to confiscate their belongings. Great: Airmano You know many tricks. And I know your brethren also know many more tricks. Thus you are all mostly tricksters. So varied are the tricks you play on others that before they realise they are being played you are away and off. Just so that you know, that I know what you are upto. A little bit of it goes like this: �My opinion of Christian Zionists? They�re scum. But don�t tell them that. We need all the useful *****s we can get right now,� � Bibi Netanyahu, prime minister of Israel. And quite like this: Many countries of Europe had vast colonies in all parts of the world, from where the resources and wealth were looted and channeled back to their European states, allowing the colonies to remain undeveloped. While internally they espoused high ideals, they had no qualms in exploiting the rest of the world for their selfish purposes. Other parts of the world like north America were newly discovered with fresh resources convenient for settling in after oppressing the original inhabitants. Slaves were available for doing all the hard labor. The relative material comfort allowed the nations the luxury of building institutions of learning which nurtures more intellectual and artistic pursuits too. In these circumstances, it is fair to ask if their development today rests on the foundations of injustice and robbery. After all, a robber who steals from the innocent cannot pride himself on his wealth by claiming he was smart while the victims were weak. Petty cunning and military intimidation of harmless regions cannot be equated to superiority of a civilization. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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Ron Webb
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Posted: 04 September 2015 at 9:10am |
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re: Today at 10:00am
As I said, I was waiting for you to finish responding to my post of 2015 August 29 at 12:42pm -- explaining for instance why you felt that Allah's method of disseminating the Quran was "a zillion times more potent than modern methods of advertisement", despite a roughly 20% success rate in 1400 years. But never mind. Here is my response to your other posts: re: 2015 August 31 at 10:57am
Most of the world does not believe Islam. If that doesn't make it controversial, then I don't know what would.
Why couldn't he? Again, he was reciting, not writing.
I responded to this as a separate topic, a Surah the like thereof.
Not all, but enough to raise the concern that verses might have been lost. We obviously cannot say with certainty, because if verses were lost, well, they were lost, so how would we know?
Which still leaves the question of why Allah didn't get it right the first time, for the earlier prophets, so that they wouldn't need to be abrogated and replaced.
Nope, sorry, can't grasp it. What would it mean to abrogate a miracle? Why would Allah need it to be forgotten? In what sense is a miracle replaced by another miracle?
Sorry, I've seen "19er" used here before and thought it was a common term among Muslims, but apparently not. The quran-islam.org Web site supports Dr. Rashad Khalifa's contention that the Quran contains a mathematical pattern based on the number 19, which guards its integrity (rather like a computer checksum). The site also rejects the authenticity and/or authority of the sunna and hadith, claiming (as I would, if I were a Muslim) that the Quran alone is sufficient. Most Muslims would consider it heretical on both counts. But hey, I'm glad we can agree that the fallibility of the author does not impinge upon the credibility of his argument. If that applies to Russell's Teapot as well, then I think we're making progress. 
I didn't quote it fully because it didn't add anything substantial or answer my questions above. And besides, it didn't make sense. The miracles of Moses and Jesus haven't been forgotten. They are documented in great detail in the Bible -- see Exodus chapters 7 - 12, for example. re: 2015 September 01 at 11:09am
Maybe you would like to indicate a specific point that I overlooked. Otherwise, I'm at a loss to know what you're referring to.
By "nature" I mean anything that exists and obeys natural laws -- many of which we still do not understand, but which are at least in principle able to be understood. We don't know how the present "big bang" universe came to exist, or what if anything preceded it, but there is no reason to suppose that it was created by some Intelligent Being which does not conform to the laws of nature.
Can you be a Muslim without acknowledging Muhammad as the last Prophet? re: Today at 10:00am
Good, so we've established that homosexuality is not a choice. You call it a disease. Why? And why would you hate someone who has a disease? And if they don't want your "cure", what right have you to impose it on them? ==== Please let me know if I've missed anything significant. I'll be happy to respond. Meanwhile, maybe you'd like to respond to my topic, a Surah the like thereof, which answers your question about scriptures similar to the Quran. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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The Saint
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Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
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Posted: 05 September 2015 at 3:31am |
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The Quran is a zillion times more potent than modern methods of advertisement.
It is said that the Coca-Cola logo is recognized by 94% of the world's population. I don't know where that number came from, but it sounds about right to me. What percent of the world's population do you think has even seen a Quran? (Bearing in mind that islam has had more than ten times as long to spread its message, of course.) You must pay attention to my words. It seems you answer in a predisposed fashion without paying attention to what was said. I had said that the Quran is a zillion times more potent than any advertising. What was the import of the statement? That the Quran can have a serious and long lasting effect. And that is obvious. With a 600 year head start the bible is not as keenly accepted by the Christians today, than how the Quran is accepted by the Muslims. That is what I was referring to. There is no harm or shame in accepting that we do not know. Exactly. There is no harm or shame in accepting that we don't know how the universe was created. No need to make up fairy stories about it, especially stories that don't even answer the question. We do know most aspects of creation and we do know how it came into being. You pretend to know and claim that it happened differently. But you have no evidence of what you believe in while we have evidence of what we believe in. Hmmm, not sure what you mean by "manly", but I would have hoped it would include the virtue of self-reliance, rather than transferring your dependence on your parents to a similar dependence on an invisible "Sky Daddy". You said when you were a child you used to do childish things and then you grew-up and you put away those childish things. So, I commented that since you had allegedly grown-up you should have started doing manly things. Manly things, according to me start with a natural query about this life and its meaning and purpose. The automatic question as to who had made the earth and the sky and stars and the Sun and the Moon? Because we know nothing comes into existence until someone makes it. So, who made them? Where is He? What did He make us? What does He expects from us? It seems you did nothing of the kind. So, obviously you never grew-up! Which is exactly the opposite of an egg, which is elongated, not squashed, at the poles. You do not know or did not realize that he was proved wrong! I think I posted the proof about the latest facts about the shape of the earth. Here it is again: Read more: http://newsrescue.com/the-earth-is-egg-shaped-nasa-validates-quran-ancient-scripture/#ixzz3k7yLf7HtThe Earth is slightly flattened at the poles. Its equatorial diameter is 45 km (28 miles) longer than its polar diameter. But wait, that�s not all. As well as being generally ovoid, the Earth also has a vertical pear-shaped asymmetry, the north pole being 48 m (148 ft) further from the equatorial plane than the south pole.� The �pointy end of the egg �, so to speak, is at about 37� west longitude (400 km off the eastern tip of Brazil) where the equator�s longer axis is 159 m (522 ft) greater than its short axis. The �fat� end is just north of east Papua New Guinea. Source No, it didn't. The Quran verse 79:30 does not mention an egg. It says that the Earth is "spread out", i.e. flat. I even confirmed it with a Muslim source (islamtoday.net), which you apparently ignored. Why are you stuck on that verse? There are more that yo can read. Go here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_in_islam.htm. Earlier too, I had given you links but it seems you read only what you wish to. One of those links is posted above again. You and a few others, it seems, are confused by the meaning of the word Dahaha. Repeating the same quote five times does not count as "again and again"; and you haven't yet refuted anything I've said. You just ignore whatever doesn't fit your ideology, and accept whatever anonymous source tells you what you want to hear. But yes, I do get tired of repeating myself. Please read what I write. Unlike you, I don't rely on copy-paste to answer your questions. I put a great deal of effort into writing this, and if you're not going to bother reading it there isn't much point. To repeat: An ostrich egg is elongated, not compressed, at each end. If anything, it is the opposite of the earth, which is an oblate spheroid. However, the deviation from a perfect sphere is so slight that for all pracitcal purposes it is a sphere. Educated people have known since the ancient Greeks that the earth is a sphere so even if the Quran had made that claim it would not be a revelation. All of which is irrelevant, because the Quran does not say the earth is spherical or egg-shaped. Quran verse 79:30 says the earth is "spread out", i.e. flattened. Your sources, as usual, are lying to you. As explained above through links, my sources are not lying. Only your acquired knowledge is insufficient. You need to widen your net some more and to open your mind and agree to accept that you can be wrong. I said there is no harm or shame in accepting mistakes. You can go here, too: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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The Saint
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Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
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Posted: 05 September 2015 at 5:13am |
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As I said, I was waiting for you to finish responding to my post of 2015 August 29 at 12:42pm -- explaining for instance why you felt that Allah's method of disseminating the Quran was "a zillion times more potent than modern methods of advertisement", despite a roughly 20% success rate in 1400 years. But never mind. Here is my response to your other posts:
Is that 20% a reference to the population of Muslims? If so, even western sources estimate it to be 23% of the total. Besides it is the fastest growing. Therefore, without a revolution or an earth-shaking incident it will leave behind Christianity in sheer numbers. It is another thing that there are more christians in name than muslims in name only. I did not mean the remaining part of the message but the sentences that you appear to ignore in between. See what I said earlier: There are many signs around us that He is there. Why do you ignore the content in my posts that invite your attention to signs of divine origin behind facts stated in the Quran? I am asking you why do you overlook them? Is it not a sign of your escapism? Most of the world does not believe Islam. If that doesn't make it controversial, then I don't know what would. Most of the world, or at least the so called Christians do not believe in Christianity either. So, is Christianity controversial as well. Particularly, as you, a born christian who has discarded his religion and embraced evolution/humanism. I responded to this as a separate topic, a Surah the like thereof. Ok. We will surely get to it. Why couldn't he? Again, he was reciting, not writing. He could not. Simple. And he was not reciting, he was repeating. Even reciting does not need a person to be able to read or write. Not all, but enough to raise the concern that verses might have been lost. We obviously cannot say with certainty, because if verses were lost, well, they were lost, so how would we know? That is pure conjecture. There is no evidence that the Quran is incomplete. Therefore, we can say with certainty that it is absolutely complete. Which still leaves the question of why Allah didn't get it right the first time, for the earlier prophets, so that they wouldn't need to be abrogated and replaced. O, He gets it right all the time. Your question is answered by Jesus PBUH: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. KJV John 16:12,13 & 14 Nope, sorry, can't grasp it. What would it mean to abrogate a miracle? Why would Allah need it to be forgotten? In what sense is a miracle replaced by another miracle? Ok, let us read again what I had posted earlier: Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, it can easily be verified that the word �Ayah� in this particular verse could not mean a verse in the Quran. It can mean any of the other meanings (miracle, example or sign) but not a verse in the Quran. This is because of the following reasons: 1- The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word �Ayah� in this verse meant a verse in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another (as the interpreters falsely claim) it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten. 2- The words "We replace it with its equal" would be meaningless if the word �Ayah� in this verse meant a Quranic verse, simply because it would make no sense for God to invalidate one verse then replace it with one that is identical to it! 3- If the word �Ayah� in verse 106 meant a miracle, an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words "cause to be forgotten" can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens with the passing of time. The miracles of Moses and Jesus have long been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran. Similarly the words "We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it. Consider the following verse : "And We have sent Moses with Our Ayah�s (miracles or signs) to Pharaoh and his elders proclaiming : �I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe�. When he brought them our Ayah�s they laughed at him. Every Ayah We showed them was greater than the one that preceded it." 43:46-48 Read the rest at: http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/quran/false_accusations/abrogation_claims_(P1216).html I think it cannot be any clearer than that. Sorry, I've seen "19er" used here before and thought it was a common term among Muslims, but apparently not. The quran-islam.org Web site supports Dr. Rashad Khalifa's contention that the Quran contains a mathematical pattern based on the number 19, which guards its integrity (rather like a computer checksum). The site also rejects the authenticity and/or authority of the sunna and hadith, claiming (as I would, if I were a Muslim) that the Quran alone is sufficient. Most Muslims would consider it heretical on both counts. I do not support Rashad Khalifa. But I know that the Quran is protected by God Almighty. Simply because He promised it But hey, I'm glad we can agree that the fallibility of the author does not impinge upon the credibility of his argument. If that applies to Russell's Teapot as well, then I think we're making progress. Wink No, we do not. It must be a typo. LOL I didn't quote it fully because it didn't add anything substantial or answer my questions above. And besides, it didn't make sense. The miracles of Moses and Jesus haven't been forgotten. They are documented in great detail in the Bible -- see Exodus chapters 7 - 12, for example. Who reads the Bible now? Do you? Bible is not supposed to be taken literally now, many scholars say. It has little or no credibility today. Maybe you would like to indicate a specific point that I overlooked. Otherwise, I'm at a loss to know what you're referring to. I have referred to it in the foregoing. By "nature" I mean anything that exists and obeys natural laws -- many of which we still do not understand, but which are at least in principle able to be understood. Laws came into their own? We don't know how the present "big bang" universe came to exist, or what if anything preceded it, but there is no reason to suppose that it was created by some Intelligent Being which does not conform to the laws of nature. There is absolutely no reason for you not to believe that someone did create it and that all things conform to Him or His orders, He does not conform to anyone or anything. Only such an all-powerful being could have created everything. And He has send down proof too, which you are not willing to acknowledge. Can you be a Muslim without acknowledging Muhammad as the last Prophet? No, not after he has come. Before he came people could be Muslims by believing in Jesus PBUH. Good, so we've established that homosexuality is not a choice. You call it a disease. Why? And why would you hate someone who has a disease? No one embraces a disease knowingly. This is a disease which is embraced knowingly. Therefore, those who embrace it are punishable. Particularly, after they have been warned of the evil of the disease. And if they don't want your "cure", what right have you to impose it on them? Not I. God Almighty will deal with them as He deems fit! Please let me know if I've missed anything significant. I'll be happy to respond. Sure. I will. Meanwhile, maybe you'd like to respond to my topic, a Surah the like thereof, which answers your question about scriptures similar to the Quran. Of course, I will. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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airmano
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Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
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Posted: 06 September 2015 at 3:53am |
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Besides the usual winching your answer got nothing to do with may point. The trick that is used to "justify" the mass-murder on the Banu-Qurayza is to make them appear as a deeply corrupted bunch of people that deserve nothing else than death. You did not adequately respond to this point. Now to your statements: I admit that the imperial history of Europe and the US is nothing to be proud of. I can't see why you mix Netanyahu into your post. The Muslim standpoint on Israel is something we should possibly discuss elsewhere. Even if I repeat myself, slavery and occupation of weak(end) countries has indeed nothing gloryful. But since you started the subject: How do you actually morally justify the imperial expansion of Islam by its caliphs and the mass-exploitation of farmers under the Umiyyads + the brutal treatment of slaves under their reign (which lead to the Zanj revolts) ? Airmano Edited by airmano - 06 September 2015 at 3:58am |
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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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ISLAM HASHTAG
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Joined: 16 August 2015 Status: Offline Points: 88 |
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Posted: 06 September 2015 at 4:24am |
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Islam asks us to believe in ghaib.
Jinn exist and it is mentioned so many times in Quran,I don't know how can anyone deny it? |
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The Saint wrote: