IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - earliest quran over 100 years after muham
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


earliest quran over 100 years after muham

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
tawhid View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 28 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 62
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tawhid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: earliest quran over 100 years after muham
    Posted: 30 March 2005 at 4:38pm

work done by John Gilchrist

 

The earliest complete Koran manuscript in existence in museums today are hundreds of years after Muhammad died:

The Muslim false claim:

"In other words: two of the copies of the Qur’an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph `Uthman, are still available to us today and their texts and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to, with any other copy of the Qur’an, be it in print or handwriting, from any place or period of time. They will be found to be identical." (Von Denffer, Ulum al-Qur’an, p 64)

The truth:

Although Muslims proclaim they have a Koran that dates to the time of Muhammad, the Reality is different.

Two ancient copies of Koran that are in existence are the Samarqand MSS is in Tashkent, and the MSS housed in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul. What many Muslim's do not know, is that because these two manuscripts were written in a script style called "Kufic", practicing Muslim scholars generally date these manuscripts no earlier than 200 years after Muhammad died. Had these two manuscripts been compiled any earlier, they would have been written in either the Ma'il or Mashq script style. John Gilchrist, in his book, "Jam' Al-Qur'an" came to this same conclusion. (John Gilchrist, Jam' Al-Qur'an, Jesus to the Muslims, 1989)

Now we do have one ancient copy of the Koran written in the Ma'il style of script, that is housed in the British Museum in London (Lings & Safadi 1976:17,20; Gilchrist 1989:16,144). But scholar Martin Lings, who was not only a practicing Muslim, but also a former curator for the manuscripts of the British Museum, dates this manuscript at 790 AD, making it the earliest. On the other hand Yasir Qadhi notes one Islamic Masters/PhD scholar who believes the Samarqand MSS is the ‘most likely candidate for the original’.

It is unknown, even by Muslims that authorities will not release photographs of the ancient Topkapi manuscript in Istanbul and so there are no known studies on it. This is why the Muslim apologist, M. Saifullah had to state "Concerning the Topkapi manuscript we are not aware of studies done it." (Who's Afraid Of Textual Criticism?, M. S. M. Saifullah, 'Abd ar-Rahman Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem) What is in this manuscript that Muslims are afraid to let the world see? After all in Qur'an 2:111 it says "Produce your proof if you are truthful."

Even the earliest fragmentary manuscripts of the Koran are all dated no earlier than 100 years after Muhammad died.

Add to this the fact that there is no archeological evidence dated at the time when Muhammad was alive, by way of artifact, manuscript or inscription has ever been found were Muhammad is actually referred to as "a prophet".

If you don’t believe me, listen to faithful Muslim, Ahmad Von Denffer, in his book, Ulum al Quran, in a chapter called, Old Manuscripts Of The Qur'an, "Most of the early original Qur'an manuscripts, complete or in sizeable fragments, that are still available to us now, are not earlier than the second century after the Hijra. [or 800 AD] The earliest copy, which was exhibited in the British Museum during the 1976 World of Islam Festival, dated from the late second century.' However, there are also a number of odd fragments of Qur'anic papyri available, which date from the first century." (Grohmann, A.: Die Entstehung des Koran und die altesten Koran- Handschriften', in: Bustan, 1961, pp. 33-8)

 

Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Angel View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2005 at 6:42pm

Interesting

Quote It is unknown, even by Muslims that authorities will not release photographs of the ancient Topkapi manuscript in Istanbul and so there are no known studies on it. This is why the Muslim apologist, M. Saifullah had to state "Concerning the Topkapi manuscript we are not aware of studies done it." (Who's Afraid Of Textual Criticism?, M. S. M. Saifullah, 'Abd ar-Rahman Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem) What is in this manuscript that Muslims are afraid to let the world see? After all in Qur'an 2:111 it says "Produce your proof if you are truthful."

It may not be so much about being afraid, although I don't rule it out, the book could be very delicate for handling, some ancient books are very sensitive to the open environment and even if you try to reproduce a new copy in digital format and this would be the most likely way these days, it is a very slow and also a delicate process done in a controled environment.

But then again, maybe its paronia on the authorities

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
Back to Top
tawhid View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 28 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 62
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tawhid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2005 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Interesting

Quote It is unknown, even by Muslims that authorities will not release photographs of the ancient Topkapi manuscript in Istanbul and so there are no known studies on it. This is why the Muslim apologist, M. Saifullah had to state "Concerning the Topkapi manuscript we are not aware of studies done it." (Who's Afraid Of Textual Criticism?, M. S. M. Saifullah, 'Abd ar-Rahman Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem) What is in this manuscript that Muslims are afraid to let the world see? After all in Qur'an 2:111 it says "Produce your proof if you are truthful."

It may not be so much about being afraid, although I don't rule it out, the book could be very delicate for handling, some ancient books are very sensitive to the open environment and even if you try to reproduce a new copy in digital format and this would be the most likely way these days, it is a very slow and also a delicate process done in a controled environment.

But then again, maybe its paronia on the authorities

wasalaam

ok if thats the case...the the quran is not Gods word...

how can it be that if it asks any doubters to produce a sura better...and the original quran is too delicate to read...

how can there be a challange to prove the veracity of the quran ?

in other words...there is not a challenge to begin with...because "god's word" is too fragile to handle in order to somehow try to "prove" that there is some writing made better- no?

even so...such a claim is relative

tawhid



Edited by tawhid
Back to Top
tawhid View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 28 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 62
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tawhid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2005 at 8:37am
no objections?
Back to Top
tawhid View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 28 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 62
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tawhid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2005 at 7:52pm
bump up
Back to Top
Angel View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2005 at 8:09pm

hey I do have others things to do besides here  and there is the time difference to

for the time being:

Quote

in other words...there is not a challenge to begin with...because "god's word" is too fragile to handle in order to somehow try to "prove" that there is some writing made better- no?

What is fragile is the paper not the words.

You're saying just because something is fragile to handle cannot be, in this case God's word (or maybe not God's word) 

Quote ok if thats the case...the the quran is not Gods word...

Where do you get that from my statement ?

I never said that because its fragile to reproduce is not God's word. 

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
Back to Top
yesha` View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 26 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yesha` Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2005 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by tawhid tawhid wrote:

no objections?


I agree completely.  But's what's really late is the adhadith, which seems to me to be the source of most muslim beliefs.
Back to Top
Angel View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2005 at 5:22am
yesha, tawhid was speaking to me as I hadn't replied
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.