how do you disprove god? |
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Emettman
Senior Member Male Joined: 02 December 2014 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 144 |
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Posted: 21 January 2015 at 2:39pm |
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Yes, the "I have no need of that hypothesis" line. But that's no disproof of a deity, only the disproof of a *necessity* of a deity. Occam's razor is a thing of likelihoods, not certainties.
I agree with that, but it's difficult if not impossible to bring that to anyone who already include divine revelation within their epistemology. That the uncertainty lies in that the *human* assessment of a particular message as divine (and hence inerrant, unquestionable) seems often to be skipped over somehow.
Even if that truth is partial or approximate, to a good degree we know *how* partial and approximate. And it keeps getting tested and refined, something just not present in most faith systems. This, I hold against them. |
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omer
Starter. Male Joined: 07 December 2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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good response chris,
I agree with your swan example, and relent that the dawn aspect is a prediction, not an explanation. That would be more of a why does the tide come in and go out...well it's because of allah. That's easily disprovable, because we can test for it ,and observe and see that's not the case. In fact there's an explanation that doesn't require allah, and it's a lot more simple, then a magic being that's infinite, and no one can see or test for. But nonetheless, I will maintain, that there is a way to prove it. There is a method. Therein is what I'm pointing out. That there is no method of proving allah exists. In that, Allah, is no different from a pink unicorn. As far as humanity is concerned, there is only one method we have come up with, that has a high degree of success, in finding the truth. That is.....the scientific method. There is nothing that has created as much knowledge of what the truth is, other then that. If you say Islam, or christianity, or hinduism is the truth...that's BS. And i'm gonna call every muslim on this board out on that. What does islam have to say about gravity?, or sonic booms? or the speed of light? absolutely nothing. Islam is worthless as a path to truth. Because it has never explained anything. It makes up stuff, and provides no proof for it. As for evolution, its actually really easy to disprove. You just need to find a new specie, that has no genetic commonality with anything in existence. That would show that evolution is false, and that complex organisms can just come into existence without pre-existing species. Unfortunately....that not the reality. Every thing has a gentic commonalities with everything else. Omer |
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Emettman
Senior Member Male Joined: 02 December 2014 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 144 |
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That's not proof. it's the fulfilment of a single prediction. And there's no rule that an event happening once has to be repeated. Yes, I have no practical doubt about dawn tomorrow. But I cannot prove beyond *all* doubt that tomorrow might be different. Confusing "extremely probable " with "certain" causes problems, when the difference matters. Rather like dawns, how many white swans had people seen? But accumulating instances does not produce a proof that all swans are white. And then a black swan turns up.
Now I agree with that! Hence the idea that this world is just a computer simulation, or that God created the world last Thursday (complete with *apparent* age, *apparent* old memories etc. ) are essentially unfalsifiable. And therefore not much use.
Oh yes: what would disprove evolution? Fossil rabbits in Pre-Cambrian rocks, was a classic example.
I agree. I have been known to invoke the Invisible Pink Unicorns for this very purpose, to show how arguments for the existence of God are intrinsically irrefutable and of little value because they work equally well for dragons or Invisible Pink Unicorns. (that they are invisible *and* pink clearly demonstrates their existence in a realm beyond adequate human comprehension. Chris |
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omer
Starter. Male Joined: 07 December 2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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That's quite a bit of a cop out to say that you can't prove there will be a dawn, is absolutely false. First we define dawn. It's when the first rays of light break the horizon. Thereafter you make the statment based on your understanding that tomorrow at 5am the sun will break the horizon. Now to prove that this is true or not, we simple look to see what happens tomorrow at 5 am. Either it will break and dawn will occur or it won't. So it is provable. Every statement has to have a way to disprove it if it doesn't it;s a worthless question. Such as what is the sound of the color green. The sound of the color green is a horn. How do you prove it. You can't does that then make it true? No it just makes it a non sense question.
If you claim to know about the world, then you should be able to state that if this happens then i'm wrong. Gravity has that aspect to it as well as every statement about the world that people who don't use god as a reason can put forth. For those who make statements about the world, you need to be held to the same standard as every other person who makes statements about the world (i.e. scientists). If you want to say no, becuase it's religion i don't need proof, then you should remove your statments from the realm of reality, and put it in the world of fiction such as dragons, and fairies, and zeus. See i can say dragons exist, but they can't be tested for because they are magic. But they exist. There's no way to disprove this statment. So it's of no value. |
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Emettman
Senior Member Male Joined: 02 December 2014 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 144 |
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Bad luck possibly, or just how things are, but I agree. The only way to live without uncertainty is to not notice or to deliberately ignore the very real uncertainty. Not a route I'd take by choice. If I know about the uncertainty I can manage it. Formally, there is a science of fuzzy logic. (Which is not about thinking fuzzily.) Chris |
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airmano
Senior Member Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
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In programming you can define a boolean A and make the statement (assignment): A=true.
There is no way to (dis)prove that A is "false". Even God could not decide on it. In other words: we have to live with uncertainties. Bad luck: Airmano Edited by airmano - 10 December 2014 at 12:57am |
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Emettman
Senior Member Male Joined: 02 December 2014 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 144 |
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I am delaying chipping in, although it is a topic and question of interest, as on an Islamic site I thought it would be better to pause until an Islamic perspective or two had been given.
Just in the meantime, have you considered exactly what you mean by "prove"? I don't think I can PROVE there will be a dawn tomorrow. Not strictly. Not to the elimination of every single scrap of epistemological doubt. This does not give me sleepless nights, or make me a 50/50 agnostic on the matter. There will be a dawn tomorrow, for reasonable usages of certain. But PROVE it? Absolutely? Not so simple. Chris. |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Hi Tim the plumber, I used to often have the same question. So many of my posts were denied while others I considered far more challenging were allowed. It may have something to do with what forum you are posting in? asalaam, Caringheart |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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